Mi-24 comparison vs other DCS helos - flying "feeling"

[Cr33p3r]

I finally had a chance to get some more DCS helos and fly them by comparison. Obviously, the weight makes a difference but here is what I'm seeing below. Not intending this to be a "this helo is better than this other one" but just see if you're all seeing this and how some ones I don't yet have bought are by comparison. Thanks for indulging me. 

Mi-24: This seems the "heaviest" and most stablest of the helos. I can get it going smoothly and pitch/roll trim to get some stable flight. I think I have the most time in this bird so its most familiar to me.

Mi-8: 2nd helo I bought. I can get this moving smoothly but it feels a bit more powerful engines and blades. A bit different but I'm getting used to it and can get it into stable flight.

AH-64: I have the least amount of time in this bird. It seems to be way overpowered and twitchy and more challenging for me to get into stable consistent flight. I can overspeed/underspeed the rotors way too easily (by comparison to the above). It just feels too twitchy but maybe its me compared to the Mi-24.

So, here is where I appreciate the community's input. How does the UH1, Ka50 and Gazelle compare to what I've shared above? I probably will get one of these. I've watched numerous youtube submittals and probably just need to pull the trigger. Appreciate your constructive comments/recommendations. 

I posted here since I'm looking for regular Mi-24 pilot's opinions with Mi-24 as a base comparison. Appreciate this community!

[AeriaGloria]

Ka-50 is very agile and stable, especially with its AP. It feels much lighter then Mi-24 despite not the biggest weight difference. However turns very differently, lots of adverse yaw and it loses speed MUCH faster, any bank 45 degrees or over will rapidly bleed speed to 150 kmh. While Mi-24 can hold 250 kmh in a 45 degree left turn, and 220 kmh in a right one. Mi-24 actually climbs faster becuase of the influence of the wings being angled enough to provide lift, the Ka-50 wing splint straight and thus actually produce negative lift in a climb, little to not lift in level flight, and only really add some lift in turns and descent/dove recovery. 
 

Mi-8 might feel more powerful for a few reasons. It has a 25% bigger rotor diameter then Mi-24 with a 10% decrease in chord compared to Mi-24 (decreases total lift but increases efficiency). It also has more aggressive blade twist. 
 

The other possibiiity is I think there are some engine limitations that are not simulated, but are on Mi-24. Apparently Ka-50 just had the relevant engine restrictions added, which makes sense since it uses same variant of engine as Mi-24 

 

But my main question for you is, why do you feel a pressure to pull the right trigger, to need our input to pull such a trigger? There are free 2 week trials available for all helcipter modules but the AH-64. So if you’re on standalone, you can download Ka-50, gazelle, and the unfiltered fun to throw around UH-1 for two weeks each. Make your decision after those two weeks 

Edited November 2, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[deloy]

In the real world also, helicopter handling differs a lot based on size, weight, role and availability/capability of autopilots and damping systems. See below for my experience in DCS helos I have tried.

DCS Apache: Still in very early EA, getting better, still needs polishing in FM department.

DCS KA50:  Most polished of all, and unique dual tandem rotors, good overall feel, has been one of my favourites. Unique flight control system.

DCS Gazelle: Not flown much, FM feels really strange in certain cases, however does give a realistic feel in some flight regimes (although I found numbers to be very off).  

DCS Mi8:  Has been one of my favourites, very realistic flight feeling, based on feedback from some friends I know fly it, its pretty spot on. 

DCS Huey: Again one of my favourites, very realistic barring some small issues.  Use it for fun flying and for enjoying pure helicopter flying.

DCS Mi24: Very interesting and fun to fly bird, has become much better since EA in flight dynamics department. Its designed for high speed sweeping attacks, a role it does pretty well. Its not designed for aggressive maneuvering. Your experience with it pretty much sums up its design philosphy.

I do love the Mi24 in its current iteration, nowadays mostly flying the crocodile and Apache.  It has become one of my favourites.

 

[Cr33p3r]

Thanks so much for the great responses. Exactly what I was looking for!

I have a stigma of returning things from a childhood trauma (Thanks mom!). i may get one though and give it a shot.

Really appreciate the thoughtful responses and time you both took to share thoughts.

[Sobakopes]

02.11.2022 в 19:57, AeriaGloria сказал:

Ka-50 is very agile and stable, especially with its AP. It feels much lighter then Mi-24 despite not the biggest weight difference. However turns very differently, lots of adverse yaw and it loses speed MUCH faster, any bank 45 degrees or over will rapidly bleed speed to 150 kmh. While Mi-24 can hold 250 kmh in a 45 degree left turn, and 220 kmh in a right one. Mi-24 actually climbs faster becuase of the influence of the wings being angled enough to provide lift, the Ka-50 wing splint straight and thus actually produce negative lift in a climb, little to not lift in level flight, and only really add some lift in turns and descent/dove recovery. 
 

Mi-8 might feel more powerful for a few reasons. It has a 25% bigger rotor diameter then Mi-24 with a 10% decrease in chord compared to Mi-24 (decreases total lift but increases efficiency). It also has more aggressive blade twist. 
 

The other possibiiity is I think there are some engine limitations that are not simulated, but are on Mi-24. Apparently Ka-50 just had the relevant engine restrictions added, which makes sense since it uses same variant of engine as Mi-24 

 

But my main question for you is, why do you feel a pressure to pull the right trigger, to need our input to pull such a trigger? There are free 2 week trials available for all helcipter modules but the AH-64. So if you’re on standalone, you can download Ka-50, gazelle, and the unfiltered fun to throw around UH-1 for two weeks each. Make your decision after those two weeks 

 

How do you differentiate left and right turn for hind? What's the difference?

--–---------+

 Be careful with uh1 and gazelle. Huey us good but lacks autopilot stabilization so it will be twitchy like the Apache. Difference being Huey is also slow to get anywhere. Turreted movable Mini guns aimed with reflex sight in cockpit are FUN but being 762 they are ineffective in dcs

Gazelle has crappy FM. 

Between mi8 mi24 Apache you don't really need any other helo for the time being. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Sobakopes

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Sobakopes said:

How do you differentiate left and right turn for hind? What's the difference?

--–---------+

 Be careful with uh1 and gazelle. Huey us good but lacks autopilot stabilization so it will be twitchy like the Apache. Difference being Huey is also slow to get anywhere. Turreted movable Mini guns aimed with reflex sight in cockpit are FUN but being 762 they are ineffective in dcs

Gazelle has crappy FM. 

Between mi8 mi24 Apache you don't really need any other helo for the time being. 

 

Any single rotor helicopter will be able to turn with more power in one direction, because the tail rotor consumes power. In Mi-24, to coordinate turn you need left pedal, which means you basically have more power. If you turn right, it takes a lot of right pedal to coordinate turn, the increase in Tail rotor pitch to coordinate a right turn this causes you to have less power, becuase the tail rotor is causing more drag when it’s pitch increases. 
 

In Hind, I often wish I had rudder like Ka-50 or more efficient modern x shaped tail rotor. But if you’re not doing max power turns, the effect is more subtle. 
 

Of course for Huey and Apache, this behavior is reversed since rotors are opposite. 

[Sobakopes]

21 минуту назад, AeriaGloria сказал:

Any single rotor helicopter will be able to turn with more power in one direction, because the tail rotor consumes power. In Mi-24, to coordinate turn you need left pedal, which means you basically have more power. If you turn right, it takes a lot of right pedal to coordinate turn, the increase in Tail rotor pitch to coordinate a right turn this causes you to have less power, becuase the tail rotor is causing more drag when it’s pitch increases. 
 

In Hind, I often wish I had rudder like Ka-50 or more efficient modern x shaped tail rotor. But if you’re not doing max power turns, the effect is more subtle. 
 

Of course for Huey and Apache, this behavior is reversed since rotors are opposite. 

Are you sure the game catches these little details? 

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, Sobakopes said:

Are you sure the game catches these little details? 

Absolutely it does. You can see the effect that moving the pedals has on engine and rotor RPM just by moving the pedals in active pause, on the ground or flight. There is all sorts of situations where the tail rotor torque drawing on the engine power shows itself. It would be a pretty bad simulation if it didn’t. 
 

Often at low rpm, giving too much right pedal will shut down the generators becuase it lowers the rotor rpm so much! Happens to me quite a bit in fast and hard right hand turns, trying to use as much power as I can. And will also happen to you a lot in a hover. For example, one way to get extra power in a hover is five left pedal. 
 

In most helicopters, the tail rotor can use up 5-15% of the total engine power. So simulating this is very important even to a sim of low or medium fidelity I would think 

Edited November 7, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[deloy]

Remember that in case with coaxial rotor helicopters (like Ka50), there is no power loss due tail rotor as none is required, this means you always have more power and no issues regarding loss of tail rotor effectiveness (LTE).  Also lot less limitations in yaw rates during hovering and sideways flight, making these type of helicopters much more maneuverable.  They are also easier to learn to fly as you dont need to play with pedals all the time to counter increase or decrease in torque, whenever you touch the collective.  

[Cr33p3r]

8 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Often at low rpm, giving too much right pedal will shut down the generators becuase it lowers the rotor rpm so much! Happens to me quite a bit in fast and hard right hand turns, trying to use as much power as I can. And will also happen to you a lot in a hover. For example, one way to get extra power in a hover is five left pedal. 

This has happened to me and now I  know why! Thanks for sharing. 

[BalticDude]

My favorites are the soviet helicopters. Ka-50, Mi-8 and Mi-24 are by far the most enjoyable and all different in my opinion.

[Cr33p3r]

I took advantage of the sale and got the Huey. Jumped in it cold turkey in MP server. Still some learning to do but I ended up spending most of my time in the battle back in the Mi24. The Mi8 is great except for its like swiss cheese when it comes to enemy ground fire. I'm loving helos more and more!

[Ephedrin]

The Uh1 has a slowly moving and lagging hydraulic control system with the swash plate only controlling two rotor blades. If you make fast or twitchy inputs the Huey will build up oscillation that won‘t go away as long as you move the stick. Control it with slow and distinctive movement on the cyclic and only slow collective changes and it will fly perfectly smooth and very precise. It has probably the best hover simulation of all the DCS helos and a great system simulation. 
 

Don‘t waste money on the gazelle, looks good but doesn‘t behave like a helicopter at all. 
 

Mi-8 and all above Hind fly believable but the Hind is certainly the more modern addon (in terms of flight model development), its off-center rotor head and the wings make it an interesting chopper to fly savely. 
 

Ka50, believable but I don‘t know anything about the physics of twin rotors, all above in this configuration. 
 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ephedrin
Typos

[River]

On 11/9/2022 at 3:39 AM, BalticDude said:

My favorites are the soviet helicopters. Ka-50, Mi-8 and Mi-24 are by far the most enjoyable and all different in my opinion.

This. The three Russian helicopters are so darn good. The Apache is top notch as well but needs a few FM upgrades to make it more stable thus enjoyable. 

The Huey for sightseeing and the Gazelle has been uninstalled long time ago. 

[jubuttib]

On 11/7/2022 at 12:56 AM, Sobakopes said:

Huey us good but lacks autopilot stabilization so it will be twitchy like the Apache.

Honestly, it's IMO significantly more stable than the Apache in a hover and at low speeds. Cruising and fast attack runs the Apache takes the cake.

[Tiger-II]

Ka-50.

It was my first DCS module back when Ka-50 was a totally stand-alone product! I have the Russian installer CD that was sent to me by a friend because there was a delay with it being made available in the UK/Western world.

UH-1H is also a great module, but Ka-50 is best for combat. I just chill out with the Huey and treat it as my personal helicopter.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Tiger-II