deloy

Remember guys, the CAS (Command Augmentation System) is for a different reason than SAS, both systems are termed as SCAS as a whole. The whole purpose of CAS (it is elaborated very well in the manual) is to give a "power steering" type of response where it augments your control input to make it feel the same when flying at all speeds, so this extra SCAS response you see on controls indicator is actually correct. The CAS should also function when FTR is depressed, which is not correctly modeled at the moment, therefore the helicopter response is the same as FMC off when you flying with Force Trim (FTR) depressed. So essentially if you press and hold FTR, it just switches the CAS system off also. This is very evident in control indicator, as you see no movement in "green cross". Cheers

Guys, this module has come a long, barring some issues with hold modes (which got better, got worse and being improved), its much stable to fly. I use a simple TM 1600M with Saitek pedals. Please be aware that if you are not using fancy setup or FFB, use Central Position Trimmer mode. There is a bug in the system that cause controls to be very sluggish if you are using other trimmer modes. Also, Apache is supposed to be stable in hover and much more responsive in forward flight as mentioned by SMEs, which is possible now when controls are setup correctly. Other than hold modes (break out behavior is totally broken now, it was much better before), yaw channel response and some issues with the way CAS is modelled when FTR is pressed, its much better now in my opinion. Cheers

Referring to OP, the point is that there is no difference in handling when FTR is pressed vs when FMC modes are off, so apparently there is no CAS active when FTR is pressed. There is no additional lag compared between FTR pressed when FMC is off. As per Brad’s description the lag should be noticeable when FMC is off . This isn’t the case now in our Apache . I guess that’s why they say it’s still being improved and not in final state. If you see control positions indicator you clearly see CAS working when SAS is on, as clearly described in the manual . However this is not the case when either FTR is depressed or FMC off , which is relevant in this discussion. cheers

Thanks for pointing out, so its already known, I thought it was introduced in the latest patch.......

Guys, Mostly I have been using central trimmer mode, I tried the instant mode recently with the new patch, and it appears that using instant trim option causes cyclic response to become very sluggish, you can observe this in control position window which also corresponds to in game cyclic animation. It is unrealistically sluggish in this mode. However in central position I think it responds much more realistically and there is no lag. Anyone observed the same? Regards

Apparently when in hold , manual cyclic over ride is not working and hold modes remain engaged, also I observed similar role behaviour as discussed here. Seems to be more stable with force trim interrupted , although CAS function with force trim interrupted still not apparent to me at least. Anyone observed this ?

My personal observations after patch: 1. We can see what heading hold is doing using new controls indication , this shows implementation of some real world yaw channel behaviour, although fine tuning in yaw channel needed . You can clearly see when you apply pedals , when the heading hold is engaged or disengaged, by some fancy curve setting I managed to improve response for my setup . Still not perfect though 2. Strange zombie collective channel behaviour is finally gone ! 3. Most of us having issues with help being unstable is probably due to SAS response , which is reduced in my opinion , don’t know why as they said they didn’t change that. Through my numerous tests I am pretty certain something is affecting SAS response , which is causing PIOs, this should not happen in my opinion. 4. Controller settings somehow changes how the helo responds, I changed to instant trim and removed curves , reducing saturation. Made a certain difference . 5. As before , force from behaviour is still far from perfect

Guys you have to understand that autopilot in helicopters works differently than fixed wing. Its not like fixed wing aircraft where you use it when you need to. All helicopters (at least those I know which are equipped with such systems) always fly with all channels on, including heading hold functions which are usually tied in with the whole system. Hind (havent flown hind in real life but have friends who have flown similar Russian systems) has yaw dampening system which helps in real life to limit the rate of pedal input which can result in dangerous flight regimes. It is difficult to feel in simulation due hardware limitations, where ED has modelled delay in input to simulate it. The only time pilots switch these systems off are for training or currency. I always fly using real world techniques (all functions on) and adapt my flying to it, however, there are cases where you have to adapt in sim. Also, please note that microswitch system in pedal is used in other helicopters too, its not peculiar to Hind. Cheers

Considering your case, I can say that from my perspective, if you try to set up your view to match real world sight line, you always end up higher than what you would want in a sim, and you will have tough time trying to read instruments/MFDs. So in a sim you compromise a bit so your sight line is lower than what it would be in real aircraft. Although I have no real experience in Apache, judging from my experience in 2D and with Headtracker, I would suggest your Pic No.2 with a slightly raised sight-line. For Pic No. 1, same applies but for scenarios where you have to focus on visual cues e.g hovering or doing pure VFR. Off course above is subjective and based on my particular 2D setup, with different setups and types of monitors/size etc. some things may be different. Remember that in real world conventional VFR flying, pilots spend more time looking outside view than instruments, which is normally not the case in sim as you need cues which can be felt in real aircraft. Obviously with VR things are totally different. Cheers

Hi, You cant compare real pilot perspective with flat screen, just use the FOV to suit your perspective based on situation you are in. Sometimes, you need to zoom in to get more information from displays, sometimes you zoom out to get better all round view, on top of that, there is no peripheral vision to help you. Headtracking gear may help, although I never used VR in DCS now but I guess that gives you the most realistic perspective in simming, other limitations aside. Cheers

Yeah sorry I meant to say CAS, this can be seen by showing up the control indicator, which doesn't indicate any Command Augmentation when FTR is pressed.

FTR is still not simulated properly, it still completely disconnects SAS function when held which is not as per the real thing. Although we feel it is stable, but still not working as it should. Hope they implement this and correct breakout values soon (no complains, as it is still EA! :)).

Found something interesting, would be worth comparing our DCS version to this...... https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3815&context=utk_gradthes Would do you guys think? Cheers

Remember that in case with coaxial rotor helicopters (like Ka50), there is no power loss due tail rotor as none is required, this means you always have more power and no issues regarding loss of tail rotor effectiveness (LTE). Also lot less limitations in yaw rates during hovering and sideways flight, making these type of helicopters much more maneuverable. They are also easier to learn to fly as you dont need to play with pedals all the time to counter increase or decrease in torque, whenever you touch the collective.

In the real world also, helicopter handling differs a lot based on size, weight, role and availability/capability of autopilots and damping systems. See below for my experience in DCS helos I have tried. DCS Apache: Still in very early EA, getting better, still needs polishing in FM department. DCS KA50: Most polished of all, and unique dual tandem rotors, good overall feel, has been one of my favourites. Unique flight control system. DCS Gazelle: Not flown much, FM feels really strange in certain cases, however does give a realistic feel in some flight regimes (although I found numbers to be very off). DCS Mi8: Has been one of my favourites, very realistic flight feeling, based on feedback from some friends I know fly it, its pretty spot on. DCS Huey: Again one of my favourites, very realistic barring some small issues. Use it for fun flying and for enjoying pure helicopter flying. DCS Mi24: Very interesting and fun to fly bird, has become much better since EA in flight dynamics department. Its designed for high speed sweeping attacks, a role it does pretty well. Its not designed for aggressive maneuvering. Your experience with it pretty much sums up its design philosphy. I do love the Mi24 in its current iteration, nowadays mostly flying the crocodile and Apache. It has become one of my favourites.

Definitely getting better, flying with force trim release seems better, but still its flying like SAS off. Other than the roll issues at higher speeds, and yaw damping (needs further tuning), and the force trim release dynamics, I think much better. Hovering seems to be more closer to reality now

Apparently I didn’t feel any difference in flight behaviour between flight FTR pressed and switching all SCAS channels to off . So it seems flying with FTR pressed does not correspond to function in real apache. I thought it’s a bug and has been reported but did I miss something here ?

Maybe is sim, yes, it does work as the forces on a spring joystick does not correspond well to real cyclic. I remember this Blackshark issue was discussed long time ago in other forum, but real world technique was to use tapping method to avoid over controlling. I dont have real world experience in Russian helicopters but knew lot of guys who flew Mi8/17s etc. Tapping vs holding, with/without beep trim is mostly a personal preference in most of the cases, although flight manuals normally provide recommended way of trimming in a particular helicopter, for example in case of Apache, holding trim release while moving cyclic is preferred, however that doesnt mean you cant use techniques you are comfortable with. I do agree that in case of DCS Blackshark, holding trim and moving does seem easier, although I always used tap (double tap!) method. Cheers

I guess the more "Russian" way of flying helicopters is the tapping method, as in Blackshark and MI-8. It is also evident in some real world cockpit videos of flying these helicopters. I guess the same technique is also suitable on the Hind. In the real world, helicopters with Beep trim (trim hat like the Hind) are usually flown utilizing it (except where larger cyclic input is required), as it is easy to do fine trim adjustments. Advantage of tapping method is to feel the "force" in real world cyclic controls which help you avoid unintended abrupt movements of cyclic.

Guys who are spinning while specially when trying to transition to low speed and hover (specially OGE) need to be careful with pedals and anticipate movement, not applying tooo much of correction, as it becomes a see saw, partly due current SCAS behavior . It maybe an issue related to particular control setup and central trimmer mode, and remember there is a learning curve when trying to learn conventional tail rotor helicopters (I know, many were spoiled by flying Blackshark!). There are some issue with SCAS tuning when trying to move pedals but it is manageable, or maybe there can an aspect of LTE modeled, (which I an not sure) when in "Hot" and "high" conditions. I fly using real world techniques using FTR hold and using attitude hold and it generally works, while using Raptor9's trim setting using instant for cyclic and center position mode for pedals. I am sure it will get better with more fine tuning of the SCAS.

Although I cant say for Apache (I have real world experience in some other military helicopters), I do feel that SCAS needs some fine tuning specially in high speed ranges, it tends to be somewhat unstable in roll.

At least it’s good to have a clearing on way forward, we should appreciate the quality of stuff EA brings us, but I would definitely like to see a change in priorities to focus on finishing FM and systems first so we have a more functional airframe , and keep other stuff for addition as updates later

Me too Got the bundle and i have no words to express the feeling when I fly hornet over Dubai,amazing work

Got it to work, Thx! Actually I screwed up something during update due which my version number was wrong and wasnt up to date......did multiple updates finally did it

Hello! I have recently installed 1.5 Open Beta latest version and i can get none of my modules to work. When i install them through either in game module manager or through Updater i get the message "ERROR: Version 1.5.0.45208.37 is not available." Log file attached autoupdate_log.txt