cyclic stick deflection rate slower than actual joystick.

[frachy]

For example, when the actual joystick deflects from max left to max right quickly, the cyclic stick in game just deflects from max left to max right slowly, not fully synced to the actual joystick. Is it intended, can I get rid of it?

I prefer that they are synced, could give more controllability.

[admiki]

Do you have any curves applied to your controls?

[Hiob]

Depending on the aircraft, the speed you can throw the stick around is very limited. Remember that you don’t only accelerate the „small“ mass of your control column but you have to fight, linkages, servos, hydrolics and of course the aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces.

The amount of force you would need to accelerate the real stick as fast as your joystick would probably break it (if you were able to apply it).

I don’t know, but I would bet 10:1 that such limitations are modeled  in most DCS modules.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Hiob

[bradmick]

The only forces you encounter in the AH-64D flight controls are the forces associated with the physical push/pull tubes themselves and the force trim systems springs. The flight controls are not directly connected to the awash plate, but are connected to small “arms” on the servo cylinders. You won’t feel the aerodynamic loads transmitted through the physical flight controls. This is why when you lose hydraulics in an Apache, it’s game over. You can’t “muscle through” to fly it.

[frachy]

5小时前，Hiob说：

Depending on the aircraft, the speed you can throw the stick around is very limited. Remember that you don’t only accelerate the „small“ mass of your control column but you have to fight, linkages, servos, hydrolics and of course the aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces.

The amount of force you would need to accelerate the real stick as fast as your joystick would probably break it (if you were able to apply it).

I don’t know, but I would bet 10:1 that such limitations are modeled  in most DCS modules.

 

As the Max Left -> Max Right Deflection, On the first half (or most of the first half) of the movement, the mechanical force should help you instead of resisting. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by frachy

[frachy]

As this thread says, It's true IRL.

"It's a general feature of hydraulic controls that they have a certain maximum deflection speed. The hydraulic pump is able to pump only limited flow of fluid through the system. Having bigger valves, hydraulic lines and a pump would make it faster. "

 

[jubuttib]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:18 PM, frachy said:

As this thread says, It's true IRL.

"It's a general feature of hydraulic controls that they have a certain maximum deflection speed. The hydraulic pump is able to pump only limited flow of fluid through the system. Having bigger valves, hydraulic lines and a pump would make it faster. "

 

I feel like I don't quite buy that as the explanation for this particular case:

1. The movement rate is super slow, but more importantly...

2. It depends on the trimmer mode you've selected.

The maximum speed that the in-game cyclic moves is very slow when you have set the trim mode to either "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" or "Joystick Without Springs and FFB", but much faster (still not 100% with the controller) when using "Central Position Trimmer Mode".

Shot this quick video (refusing embedding for whatever reason):

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by jubuttib

[Yomo]

41 minutes ago, jubuttib said:

I feel like I don't quite buy that as the explanation for this particular case:

1. The movement rate is super slow, but more importantly...

2. It depends on the trimmer mode you've selected.

The maximum speed that the in-game cyclic moves is very slow when you have set the trim mode to either "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" or "Joystick Without Springs and FFB", but much faster (still not 100% with the controller) when using "Central Position Trimmer Mode".

Shot this quick video (refusing embedding for whatever reason):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_oCGkUmtQ4

The video is private

[jubuttib]

41 minutes ago, Yomo said:

The video is private

Thanks, set to unlisted now!

No idea why that happened, the last 100+ videos I've uploaded have been unlisted just like they should...

EDIT: Ah, that's probably why it didn't embed either. Now it's working as it should.

Edited December 14, 2022 by jubuttib

[Ernest]

I also want to point out this issue. It seems that in Instant Mode or Joystick without spring and FFB there is a damping effect that's limiting the maximum speed the input can move. This isn't solved... also adding any response curve causes the ffb trim center to be out of alignment with the curve one.

You can see the F14 or any other module has no such issue.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Ernest

[frachy]

20小时前，jubuttib说：

I feel like I don't quite buy that as the explanation for this particular case:

1. The movement rate is super slow, but more importantly...

2. It depends on the trimmer mode you've selected.

The maximum speed that the in-game cyclic moves is very slow when you have set the trim mode to either "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" or "Joystick Without Springs and FFB", but much faster (still not 100% with the controller) when using "Central Position Trimmer Mode".

Shot this quick video (refusing embedding for whatever reason):

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! 

I'm using a non-spring stick and using "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" mode, follow your quote, changed it to "Central Position Trimmer Mode" SOLVED the problem.

It JUST FLYS MANY TIMERS EASIER AND BETTER! Especially for hover.

So, the "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" and "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" should be avoided, they're much harder to fly than "Central Position Trimmer Mode"

It should be a bug i thought, different deflection rate for different player's equipment just makes non-sense.

Edited December 15, 2022 by frachy

[jubuttib]

3 hours ago, frachy said:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! 

I'm using a non-spring stick and using "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" mode, follow your quote, changed it to "Central Position Trimmer Mode" SOLVED the problem.

It JUST FLYS MANY TIMERS EASIER AND BETTER! Especially for hover.

So, the "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" and "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" should be avoided, they're much harder to fly than "Central Position Trimmer Mode"

It should be a bug i thought, different deflection rate for different player's equipment just makes non-sense.

 

Don't thank me, it was actually Ernest who first let me in on it, I just happened to shoot the video and make a post about it first (didn't know Ernest was working on that at the time).

Yeah definitely seems like a bug, can you remove the "solved" thingy from this thread, since it seems like it isn't?

[frachy]

1小时前，jubuttib说：

Don't thank me, it was actually Ernest who first let me in on it, I just happened to shoot the video and make a post about it first (didn't know Ernest was working on that at the time).

Yeah definitely seems like a bug, can you remove the "solved" thingy from this thread, since it seems like it isn't?

A bug but a good bug maybe,cuz they may fix this bug by adding damping to all 3 modes...

[admiki]

8 hours ago, frachy said:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! 

I'm using a non-spring stick and using "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" mode, follow your quote, changed it to "Central Position Trimmer Mode" SOLVED the problem.

It JUST FLYS MANY TIMERS EASIER AND BETTER! Especially for hover.

So, the "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" and "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" should be avoided, they're much harder to fly than "Central Position Trimmer Mode"

It should be a bug i thought, different deflection rate for different player's equipment just makes non-sense.

 

How do you trim?

[frachy]

5小时前，admiki说：

How do you trim?

I'm using a joystick without spring at forward-left deflecting zone, not needing trim.

[admiki]

6 hours ago, frachy said:

I'm using a joystick without spring at forward-left deflecting zone, not needing trim.

Good luck with using hold modes

[frachy]

2小时前，admiki说：

Good luck with using hold modes

This setup can use all 3 modes. cuz no trim button pressing is needed.

[admiki]

2 hours ago, frachy said:

This setup can use all 3 modes. cuz no trim button pressing is needed.

Wrong. Apache SCAS requires FTR to know what to do. Holding modes might work, but you could also get strange results due to SCAS not having all the info.

TBH, I'm not sure why people require instant response from game stick. There is no way you can move stick that fast IRL and I really have to think to come up with a scenario where you need full side to side deflection.

[frachy]

2小时前，admiki说：

Wrong. Apache SCAS requires FTR to know what to do. Holding modes might work, but you could also get strange results due to SCAS not having all the info.

TBH, I'm not sure why people require instant response from game stick. There is no way you can move stick that fast IRL and I really have to think to come up with a scenario where you need full side to side deflection.

In general, your information is almost useless in this case.

Edited December 16, 2022 by frachy

[jubuttib]

13 hours ago, admiki said:

TBH, I'm not sure why people require instant response from game stick. There is no way you can move stick that fast IRL and I really have to think to come up with a scenario where you need full side to side deflection.

To be clear, we're not necessarily asking for INSTANT response, but the response on the Apache in "Instant" and "Without Springs" trim modes is _super_ slow compared to anything else in the game. The "Central position" trim mode makes the stick respond WAY faster, but still isn't quite as fast as the real stick.

What I'd want is just that the "Instant Trim" and "Without Springs" modes are as fast as the "Central position" mode, because I want to use my unsprung stick and have it work properly.

Edited December 17, 2022 by jubuttib