How do you guys do it?

[Ice]

Ok I'm not too bad a stick in the F15 but there a couple of guys that can out turn me in the 27 going real slow flaps extended. Its a tight turn at around 300kph and the F15 doesnt seem to be able to match it. Being the kind of guy who says if you cant beat em join em, I have been flying the 27 for the last couple of weeks. Getting pretty good in guns fights but I still cant do the slow flaps out tight turn properly so as to out turn the F15.

 

Would someone who knows how this is done please explain with a tutorial and even a track.

[D-Scythe]

Well, you shouldn't be trying to dogfight a Su-27 in an F-15 at slow speed anyway. The Eagle is an energy fighter, and the Crane is undoubtedly superior in that slow speed portion of the flight envelope.

[169th_DedCat]

I think you've missed the point of the question D-Scythe. We aren't talking about bleeding all your energy off in the Eagle and then wondering why you're being out turned by a Flanker. The point of the question is that people who know what they're doing can use flaps to manoeuvre the Flanker in a sustained turn well below its corner speed, better than the Eagle can at its corner speed. Yes booming an zooming in the Eagle is the proper defence against this, but what we're asking is, what's the trick to the low speed flap turn in the Flanker?

[GGTharos]

Did you check the amount of onboard fuel?...

 

The Su-27 holds a ridiculously alrge amount of fuel internally so you'll need to be at 20%-30% for good maneuverability. you basically need to be able to dance on the head of a pin weightwise in any of the planes in LOMAC to perform the maneuvers you're thinking of.

 

And yes, you'll out-turn the 15 every time like that.

[D-Scythe]

Haha...okay, lemme clarify. I'm no expert in the Flanker, but to out-turn the Eagle (if I was a Su-27 pilot), I'd do my best to lure the F-15 into a slow speed knife fight. I don't know why Ice cannot out-turn an F-15 for sure, since I know neither the circumstances or the pilots, whether they are AI or not. Moreover, one can only fly so slow (or so fast) before the advantage they're trying to push starts to work against them.

 

In any case, there are several counters to avoiding the trap. One, it's not a gunzo fight. With missiles, you only really have to bring your nose on target for a good shot, so I don't see the reason why an F-15 would slow down. Another possibility is that the F-15s may be using its energy advantage and taking the fight vertical/oblique (while also probably reducing it's horizontal turn radius in a series of yo-yos) resulting in some fairly neutral passes until someone gets lucky. Of course, these are just my guesses, and fairly simple ones at that. Especially with human opponents, there are too many things to tell for sure.

[S77th-Beast]

Don't really have an answer as I spend 90% of my time in the no-turning, lead-sled SU33. Is this in the context of a 'guns only' fight? Are you heavy at the time (gas, weapons)? My experience in the turn fight arena is that the -15 is the hardest to beat. It, as modeled, seems to have more available power at a given speed/config, which allows me to make minor errors yet stay in the 'saddle'.

 

Now, if the SU has R-73's it's diff since it can employ them earlier via the helmet-mounted sight. Two-circle fight would seem to make things worse (for the -15) since you'll have more separation when the SU has a shot, possibly giving the R73 a better chance.

 

However, according to this:

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_097d.html

 

..you're not going to out-turn a -27. Ever. Assuming you're flying against your clone. Not sure how the author came up with the data however - and he seems not to delve into the slow-turn side of the envelope. You have me curious now too :)

 

Check-Six,

S77th-Beast

[GGTharos]

Here's the thing. The Su-27 can -always- out-turn the 15 given equal fuel. However, the Sue loses power in those turns ... so the 15 pilot needs to play it -very- precice and calm - the onus is on the 15 pilot to do this eprfectly.

 

You have to maintain corner speed, and whatever happens, you can't let him on your tail (unless you got 200kts on him..then you can just go vertical)

 

You can use oblique turns to cut your turn radius down, but so can he. Either way, it's possible to keep it neatrula, jsut whateevr you do, DO NOT SLOW DOWN. If you see you're getting sloe (below 350) point the nose DOWN and speed the heck up.

 

PLAN every turn to make sure your speed stays up there. If he's carrying more fuel than you, you're almost guaranteed to stay neutral.

 

If he's carrying a LOT more fuel than you are, take him above 20k feet - he's going to kill off all his speed by the second turn, just make sure you're keeping a VERY steady hand on the sutained turns ... wait for his nose to drop - then he's yours.

 

Last tip: Never, EVER fight close to the ground. If you don't know why, try taking the fight higher and you'll get it.

[4c E x p e r t]

hi

 

Hello Ice, I saw that too... I tried but imposible..

 

Only thing that can be is that they are using less fuel 30%... or something else :|

[GGTharos]

A couple things I can think of off the bat:

 

They are maintaining corner speed. No matter how well the 27 performs at slow speed, a 15 at corner will out-turn it.

 

They would also have their landing flaps down but I don't see how ... it really burns airspeed something fierce - though you could use it for jsut a few moments.

 

There are ways to 'cheat' but I won't discuss those ... ED is already on it - suffice it to say, don't shout 'cheat' whenever this happens.

 

Keep in mind that if they seem to be out-turning you, you can point the nose down, rotate and get nose on again.

[Ice]

The question may have been answered. 30% fuel or less. I will experiment with this and see what i find out.

 

To clarify the question.

 

How do some pilots maintain a high turn rate at such low speeds in the SU27.

 

Anything else is irrelevent.

 

Yes we are talking about guns.

[GGTharos]

Glad to be of some help.

[zzzspace]

Use flaps and mil thrust but no afterburner and you can out-turn anything.

 

Practice for a few hours on slow aircraft like A-10s, F-117s and then a few Su-19s etc., and you'll find that you can knife-fight seemingly FOREVER without running out of fuel. You can force the other guy to continually over-shoot or to get into predictable energy deficits. After a bit you will find that you can turn inside the other aircraft at will, and lose anyone after you.

 

You just swap from trail to lead intercept vectors as energy and relative angles allow or suggest. Go slow and get used to riding the edge of the stall, not all of the time, just at the right moments when you need to. It's mostly a horizontal fight and works best down low, where you can force the other guy to stay mostly horizontal with you. Even if he does put on the power and goes high, don't chase him down, just build up your speed a bit (not too much though, you don’t ever want to exceed 370 knots) with 100% dry thrust, plus wide trailing pursuit arcs to stay in his rear hemisphere as much as possible, until ready to suddenly close-up and latch on to his six again. It’s a lot of fun one against many doing this.

 

Rule number one, take your time! You have LOTS of time, but the guys with the burners on have very little time and won't get to grips with you. If they try to match you with their burners lit they’ll lose every time, because below corner speed the burner makes your turn radius wider than it needs to be. You believe you are turning as fast as you can but you are only sliding the tail, not actually turning much. It’s a bit like spinning the wheels of a car through a corner (i.e. speed increases G of the whole aircraft and thus the centrifugal force on the aircraft, which throws your aircraft wider, like a weight on a string, and it means you have fly even further to turn the same corner, actually resulting in an even slower turn).

 

So, back-off the gas and you will turn faster when below corner speed.

 

Rule number two, make sure you've dumped your tanks and weapons first if your in an Eagle or MiG.

 

BTW, this works EXTREMELY well in the F-15C ... ;)

[Ice]

ZZZSpace, I do believe you have given me the answer ive been looking for. It all fits.

 

So is this realistic or a scripted maneuvre ?

[SUBS17]

Could also be over riding the AOA limiter! Horizontal half cobra.

[Guest ruggbutt]

I have yet to see a 27 out turn me in gunzo in the 15. Maybe it's just the other pilots but the 15 can turn very slow, I can maintain a 230kt turn all day long. The 27 seems to accelerate faster though, LOC used to fly it all the time and as soon as I'd start to get on his 6 he'd punch it and be just barely out of range for me to make a shot.

[169th_DedCat]

I have yet to see a 27 out turn me in gunzo in the 15.

 

I rarely see it myself, but when you encounter an expert who knows how to pull it off, it is pretty impressive. Someone gave an apt description earlier in this thread, it really does look like the Flanker is balancing on the head of a pin. :)

[Ice]

Well ZZZSpace, Ive tried it now for a couple of nights and it doesnt work for me. Least not in the 27, plane just slows to around 220 kph and turns like a dog. end up being a target for the boomer and zoomers in a furrball.

 

I need you to make a track of this so i can see exactly whjat you mean. Otherwise its just a theory that for me at least does not seem to work.

[Ice]

Well played for a few weeks now inthe 27, starting to get competitive, giving the aces (RAF-packman and USSR Supermutt) a run for their money. The best answer i can get yet is that once 1500 kilos or less the manuevrability increases greatly at low speeds. Still testing.

[zzzspace]

Yeah, it's also corner management, i.e. getting used to the low-energy fighting and not turning any more than you need to. It's not going to be easy if you try fighting a guy doing the same thing, but you can get on even terms with them.

[Skywall23]

Pay attention guys, because the Su-27 and 33 have been improved in performance terms.

 

I recommend flying the tweaked 1.1 demo and try it out by yourself. The 27 seems to loose less airspeed at low speeds and thus not spinning as easily. If you think im saying this because im a Flankerhead, check the Lock On Flaming Cliffs preview part 2. The roll was also improved on the 27.

 

As for the flaps, I remember a guy asking me if I used flaps to get better turn rates. I said no, but it looks like he knew what he was doing. As for the rest, I never saw Su-27 using flaps in dogfight in MP.

 

OT- Btw, I tried for the first time the R-77 on the Mig yesterday, and wow, its a very good missile.

[zzzspace]

Skywall23, the F-15C also had its roll rate increased in 1.1 ... and it doesn't have a tendency to stall or get out of trim at all ;)

 

I don't have a favourite aircraft or 'side', I fly them all, and they all kick butt ... in different ways.

[Skywall23]

Skywall23, the F-15C also had its roll rate increased in 1.1 ... and it doesn't have a tendency to stall or get out of trim at all ;)

 

I don't have a favourite aircraft or 'side', I fly them all, and they all kick butt ... in different ways.

The 27 had the tendecy to stall not the F-15C. And yes I know that the Eagle's roll has been improved, but all planes got that. :wink:

[zzzspace]

The 27 had the tendecy to stall not the F-15C.

 

Err yeah, that was the point I was making.

[Skywall23]

Su-27 had the tendency to stall/spin in 1.02 and no longer does in 1.1 .

 

Sorry if I missed your point. :P

[RvEPaploo]

The question may have been answered. 30% fuel or less. I will experiment with this and see what i find out.

 

To clarify the question.

 

How do some pilots maintain a high turn rate at such low speeds in the SU27.

 

Anything else is irrelevent.

 

Yes we are talking about guns.

 

Just Hard work ice,

like you probably know, =RvE= still flying dogfight ;)

 

1st fuel: if it is a freeloadout you have to feel how react the plane of yer opponent, then go to the tactic you need.

the balance for fuel beetween flanker is eagle is 40%-52%, with that all plane are flying long enough and not to much heavy, both are flying the same time, we made 1000 test lol.

 

2nd for sure a flanker will be dangerous in sustain, but you have to considere tht a eagle will outturn a flanker in those move, tht why we rarely engage an eagle in 2 circle fight, just ask me in HL , ill show ya. even if my favorite is my old sexy tractor, the eagle can be deadly in short kniglfe edge fight.

 

flaps, rudder ok ok bt most important is when and how to use it , experience will give to ya the right timing for tht, anyway rules one fly with brain not with mussles, rules 2, brain dont help in gun, :pilotfly: clear enough ?

see you in HL boy and lets dance