Pico 4: how to set it up for DCS?

[TED]

1 hour ago, MIghtymoo said:

Have you remembered to supersample? Remember that this has been done in SteamVR.

Without SteamVR you need to change the resolution in DCS via the pixel density slider under the VR-tab. 1.5 in value should correspond to the 150% value in SteamVR.
 

Note: I stuggled with dropped frames and have gone back to SteamVR (for now).

 

 

 

Ahhhh... of course. Thanks. I'd missed that and would explain the blurriness. I'll test again and see if I can work out the dropped frames. Very likely its in my gpu setup as I can see neither my gpu or cpu are working desperately hard so there's lots more overhead. 

[bpremus]

Have anyone played with codecs recently, the VD dev said that for racing sims, hard to compress images or any fast moving stuff H.264+ would be better choice than HEVC and with fast enough bitrate can reduce the image compression having it as close to native resolution. 

[TED]

So now after realizing my mistake and not oversampling I am getting great results with this little pico. In fact I even oversampled now to 170% in openXR developer tools, added msaa x2, shadows all on and all other detail sliders up to max or close to max. 
I found 90hz with fps capped to 45 works best for me with ssw off. I found it would actually hold 72fps most of the time and this looks really good, however low level in the f18 caucuses map, could cause fps to drop a bit into 60s, so capping at 45fps on 90hz leaves a rock solid fps at all times. 
codec is hvec at the moment but may play with this later. 
getting rid of the steamvr overheads has really helped me. I’m amazed still that openxr is not the default as it just seems to be so much more stable and easier to use than anything else. The competence and understanding Matthieu Buccia has for programming and providing what the user actually needs is outstanding. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by TED

[MIghtymoo]

1 hour ago, TED said:

So now after realizing my mistake and not oversampling I am getting great results with this little pico. In fact I even oversampled now to 170% in openXR developer tools, added msaa x2, shadows all on and all other detail sliders up to max or close to max. 
I found 90hz with fps capped to 45 works best for me with ssw off. I found it would actually hold 72fps most of the time and this looks really good, however low level in the f18 caucuses map, could cause fps to drop a bit into 60s, so capping at 45fps on 90hz leaves a rock solid fps at all times. 
codec is hvec at the moment but may play with this later. 
getting rid of the steamvr overheads has really helped me. I’m amazed still that openxr is not the default as it just seems to be so much more stable and easier to use than anything else. The competence and understanding Matthieu Buccia has for programming and providing what the user actually needs is outstanding. 

 

How are you able to cap on 45 fps and get a smooth image (without reprojection)? Thanks for feedback.

3 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@MIghtymoo Atm, 90 Hz without reprojection. 60-80 fps. Really looking forward to what VDXR will make of this:

["graphics"] = {
        ["AA"] = "DLAA",
        ["BlurFlatShadows"] = 0,
        ["ColorGradingLUT"] = 0,
        ["DLSS_PerfQuality"] = 1,
        ["DOF"] = 0,
        ["LODmult"] = 1,
        ["LensEffects"] = 3,
        ["MSAA"] = 1,
        ["SSAO"] = 1,
        ["SSLR"] = 1,
        ["SSS"] = 0,
        ["Scaling"] = 0.66,
        ["ScreenshotExt"] = "jpg",
        ["Sharpening"] = 0.5,
        ["Upscaling"] = "DLSS",
        ["anisotropy"] = 4,
        ["aspect"] = 1,
        ["box_mouse_cursor"] = true,
        ["chimneySmokeDensity"] = 10,
        ["civTraffic"] = "",
        ["clouds"] = 3,
        ["clutterMaxDistance"] = 690,
        ["cockpitGI"] = 1,
        ["defaultFOV"] = 69,
        ["effects"] = 3,
        ["flatTerrainShadows"] = 0,
        ["forestDetailsFactor"] = 1,
        ["forestDistanceFactor"] = 1,
        ["fullScreen"] = false,
        ["heatBlr"] = 1,
        ["height"] = 1200,
        ["lights"] = 2,
        ["messagesFontScale"] = 1,
        ["motionBlur"] = 0,
        ["motionBlurAmount"] = 1,
        ["multiMonitorSetup"] = "1camera",
        ["outputGamma"] = 2.2,
        ["preloadRadius"] = 150000,
        ["rainDroplets"] = true,
        ["scaleGui"] = 1,
        ["sceneryDetailsFactor"] = 1,
        ["secondaryShadows"] = 1,
        ["shadowTree"] = false,
        ["shadows"] = 4,
        ["sync"] = false,
        ["terrainTextures"] = "max",
        ["textures"] = 2,
        ["useDeferredShading"] = 1,
        ["visibRange"] = "Ultra",
        ["water"] = 2,
        ["width"] = 1200,

Ant possibility to get a screenshot of the graphics tab ?

[mrsylvestre]

I did an uninstall of the beta VDXR 0.6.0. and current non-beta version of VD before doing a clean install of VD 1.9.3 beta with VDXR built-in. It works but still reports "Oculus" as runtime on my Pico 4, although it is clearly using an OpenXR runtime (QuadViews and OXR toolkit are active). Does anyone (@Qcumber?) see something else than "Oculus" being reported at this stage? Solved: for culprit and fixing, see solution a couple of posts below.

Also tried the ST dcs.exe executable out of curiosity. I double checked that the shortcut contained the (sole) option --force_OpenXR but it starts SteamVR then opens in 2D on the desktop. Strange. Solved: launching DCS ST from the command line .\dcs.exe --force_OpenXR in the bin folder works as it should. There must be something fishy with my shortcuts.

I am still trying to get rid of mild stutters that crept in after the DCS 2.9 update, all options being equal to 2.8. AMD GPU here, DLAA/DLSS is not an option and FSR2/TAA produces too much of a phoenix/ghosting effect behind bandits in WW2 dogfights.

Edited October 24, 2023 by mrsylvestre
Problems solved

[TED]

1 hour ago, MIghtymoo said:

How are you able to cap on 45 fps and get a smooth image (without reprojection)? Thanks for feedback.

Ant possibility to get a screenshot of the graphics tab ?

I use the openxr toolkit to limit frame rates to 45. Works very well. I used to the same with the 8kx and reverb g2.

Edited October 24, 2023 by TED

[Qcumber]

1 hour ago, mrsylvestre said:

I did an uninstall of the beta VDXR 0.6.0. and current non-beta version of VD before doing a clean install of VD 1.9.3 beta with VDXR built-in. It works but still reports "Oculus" as runtime on my Pico 4, although it is clearly using an OpenXR runtime (QuadViews and OXR toolkit are active). Does anyone (@Qcumber?) see something else than "Oculus" being reported at this stage?

Also tried the ST dcs.exe executable out of curiosity. I double checked that the shortcut contained the (sole) option --force_OpenXR but it starts SteamVR then opens in 2D on the desktop. Strange.

I am still trying to get rid of mild stutters that crept in after the DCS 2.9 update, all options being equal to 2.8. AMD GPU here, DLAA/DLSS is not an option and FSR2/TAA produces too much of a phoenix/ghosting effect behind bandits in WW2 dogfights.

 

I see VDXR. With the pre-release version (0.6) it showed "oculus". Have you updated the headset app?

[mrsylvestre]

Thanks. Yes, I updated both the streamer (on the PC) and the headset app. After uninstalling the 'old' versions, for good measure. Time for me to double-check, I guess.

[mrsylvestre]

Virtual Desktop 1.29.3 beta with built-in @mbucchia 's VDXR OpenXR runtime: solution to performance overlay displaying incorrect runtime.

OK. VD app (beta) and VD streamer (beta) were up-to-date but in Virtual Desktop performance overlay, it would still indicate "Oculus" instead of VDXR (despite running an OpenXR runtime, confirmed by VDXR log and working QuadViews, and it for sure wasn't running SteamVR's OpenXR runtime because I had disabled SteamVR entirely).

In case this helps anyone who would encounter the same issue (perhaps only cosmetic but you never know), the culprit turned out to be an "Oculus compatibility layer for OpenXR plugin" that somehow found its way in the OpenXR layers. Now where did that one come from and how did it end up on my PC, I have no idea. I just disabled it by going to SteamVR and the OpenXR layers list, then exit SteamVR, check again that VDXR is selected in the VD streamer on the PC, problem solved.

Edited October 24, 2023 by mrsylvestre
Typo's

[mbucchia]

4 minutes ago, mrsylvestre said:

Virtual Desktop 1.29.3 beta with built-in @mbucchia 's VDXR OpenXR runtime: solution to performance overlay displaying incorrect runtime.

OK. VD app (beta) and VD streamer (beta) were up-to-date but in Virtual Desktop performance overlay, it would still indicate "Oculus" instead of VDXR (despite running an OpenXR runtime, confirmed by VDXR log and working QuadViews, and it for sure wasn't running SteamVR's OpenXR runtime because I had disabled SteamVR entirely).

In case this helps anyone who would encounter the same issue (perhaps only cosmetic but you never know), the culprit turned out to be an "Oculus compatibility layer for OpenXR plugin" that somehow found its way in the OpenXR layers. Now where did that one come from and how did it end up on my PC, I have no idea. I just disabled it by going to SteamVR and the OpenXR layers list, then exit SteamVR, check again that VDXR is selected in the VD streamer on the PC, problem solved.

 

Thanks for the report.

We already fixed this issue internally btw. The Oculus compatibility layer thing is also a thing we've added (it's not needed for DCS but it is for some other games).

[Johnny Dioxin]

8 hours ago, bpremus said:

Have anyone played with codecs recently, the VD dev said that for racing sims, hard to compress images or any fast moving stuff H.264+ would be better choice than HEVC and with fast enough bitrate can reduce the image compression having it as close to native resolution. 

I switched after reading that - and promptly forgot about it. I wasn't having issues beforehand and haven't had since switching - so for me there was no difference. I will add that I've elected to stay on 2.8.8.43704 due to some aircraft mods not yet updated for 2.9

I just switched to see if how it ran.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Johnny Dioxin

[TED]

Can anyone offer advice on maintaining a solid 1200mbs rate? 

I'm using a dedicatwd wifi 6 router (tp link archer5400)  with my PC plugget into a LAN port on the router, then pico 4 is on the 5ghz wifi network from the same router. Nothing else is on the network. The router is in the same room and right next to my PC, so only a couple of meters from the headset. 

The bitrate fluctuates a lot from 1200 to 720 mbs and latencies are quite high, usually around 60+. 

I'm using vd and vdxr. When justbin vd looking at the desktop all is good with 1200mbs and latency around 5. 

[Qcumber]

5 minutes ago, TED said:

Can anyone offer advice on maintaining a solid 1200mbs rate? 

I'm using a dedicatwd wifi 6 router (tp link archer5400)  with my PC plugget into a LAN port on the router, then pico 4 is on the 5ghz wifi network from the same router. Nothing else is on the network. The router is in the same room and right next to my PC, so only a couple of meters from the headset. 

The bitrate fluctuates a lot from 1200 to 720 mbs and latencies are quite high, usually around 60+. 

I'm using vd and vdxr. When justbin vd looking at the desktop all is good with 1200mbs and latency around 5. 

It's quite normal for the bitrate to vary. The only real issue is if you cannot maintain your target bitrate (e.g. 150 with HEVC 10 bit). For a stable connection try using an Ethernet to USB adaptor. I use this option and it supplies power too. 

In terms of latency, if you have a good connection then the two main ones are game latency and decoding latency. If your game latency is too high then it will impact on the decoding. You can try reducing graphics settings and/or reduce the bitrate.  This helps with the compression/decompression and will reduce the decoding latency. For example, if you reduce from HEVC from 150 to 100 Mbps, you might see a significant reduction in decoding latency (and overall latency) without any noticable impact on performance. Another option is to use h264+ which is supposed to have lower latency. You might get away with 300 Mbps and a good latency. 

[MIghtymoo]

1 hour ago, TED said:

Can anyone offer advice on maintaining a solid 1200mbs rate? 

I'm using a dedicatwd wifi 6 router (tp link archer5400)  with my PC plugget into a LAN port on the router, then pico 4 is on the 5ghz wifi network from the same router. Nothing else is on the network. The router is in the same room and right next to my PC, so only a couple of meters from the headset. 

The bitrate fluctuates a lot from 1200 to 720 mbs and latencies are quite high, usually around 60+. 

I'm using vd and vdxr. When justbin vd looking at the desktop all is good with 1200mbs and latency around 5. 

Have same WIFI setup and also same issues as you when using VDXR. Latency is fluctuating wildly with VDXR Beta when bypassing SteamVR.

When using same VDXR and choosing SteamVR connection, all is stable. 

Is that what you are thinking about?

Edited October 26, 2023 by MIghtymoo

[TED]

53 minutes ago, MIghtymoo said:

Have same WIFI setup and also same issues as you when using VDXR. Latency is fluctuating wildly with VDXR Beta when bypassing SteamVR.

When using same VDXR and choosing SteamVR connection, all is stable. 

Is that what you are thinking about?

 

Yes..I was starting to suspekt that too. I'll check using steamvr later. Good tip.

[TED]

Ibtried switching between steamvr and vdxr and no difference. I adjusted the graphics settings down and no difference. The issue appears to be the game latency, which is fixed basically at 22ms while the other latencies are relatively low. No idea what causes this or what affects it yet.

[TED]

I've done some more testing and no matter what I adjust game latency remains at 22. The other encoding and decoding and network are all well under 10. I tried with SA and it was lower but i really don't like sa. The image is worse and I'm unable to do a lot of thr other tweaking, such as fps. 

If anyone has any ideas about what causes dcs high latency, I'd be very interested. I've even replaced all ny ethernet cables with cat 6e. Something strange is going on anyway. 

[mrsylvestre]

22 ms corresponds to 45 fps. I suspect that what you are seeing being reported is the framerate of your headset, with retroprojection active (90 fps / 2). This suggests that the actual render time of the DCS engine with your settings is anywhere between 11+ ms and 22 ms. If it was less or equal to 11 ms, retroprojection could be inactive and you probably would see 11 ms being reported. Hence, while tweaking your settings will add or remove details & quality to the scene being rendered, it will only have a noticeable effect on the actual frametime on the headset if you manage to either drop at or below 11 ms (for the best) or above 22 ms (for the worst). Note: on a Pico 4, a good compromise can be to set the headset and VD to 72 fps, no retroprojection or 90 fps with retroprojection. 90 fps without retroprojection is usually not achievable without reducing details to the bare minimum and 72 fps with retroprojection produces a lot of ghosting, that is unbearable to many. Pick your poison

[TED]

53 minutes ago, mrsylvestre said:

22 ms corresponds to 45 fps. I suspect that what you are seeing being reported is the framerate of your headset, with retroprojection active (90 fps / 2). This suggests that the actual render time of the DCS engine with your settings is anywhere between 11+ ms and 22 ms. If it was less or equal to 11 ms, retroprojection could be inactive and you probably would see 11 ms being reported. Hence, while tweaking your settings will add or remove details & quality to the scene being rendered, it will only have a noticeable effect on the actual frametime on the headset if you manage to either drop at or below 11 ms (for the best) or above 22 ms (for the worst). Note: on a Pico 4, a good compromise can be to set the headset and VD to 72 fps, no retroprojection or 90 fps with retroprojection. 90 fps without retroprojection is usually not achievable without reducing details to the bare minimum and 72 fps with retroprojection produces a lot of ghosting, that is unbearable to many. Pick your poison

Thanks and that does sound like it makes a lot of sense. I do not actually use any reprojection though, although I lock the fps to 45 in openxr while running 90fps target. However, it is possible that this could be reflected in the numbers for latency. I will check this a bit more tomorrow but your explanation certainly gives me some more food for thought and something I hadn't thought about at all. It explains why it is locked at 22ms no matter what I change. I definitely think you are on to something with this. Thanks again. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by TED

[TED]

Solved!!!!

Indeed as @mrsylvestre mentioned, it was indeed to do with fps limiting. 

Whilst I was not using motion repro or ssw, I was running 90hz and capping to 45fps in openxr. This locked latency 22ms. After a lot of different tests I finally worked out that if I cap fps at anything else other than 45 latency goes down. So instead I used 90hz and capped to 60fps and latencies are way down. The same worked running at 72hz. 

The nice thing about this is that I can do it on the fly in game directly without needing to restart with openxr toolkit. If the mission is busy I can adjust to get stable fps and smooth experience. 

[Greeble]

Do any of you pico users still use 2080ti? because i can't find a setting combo that isn't blurry, to super blurry. Unless i run it in Goodllike, and then it's a slideshow.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Greeble

[WolfCat]

Performance "leak" / "inherited" bad performance ?

Tried DLSS with my Pico 4. I used the pretty high graphics settings that I have for flatscreen, not my VR settings for this try
(I hate that I have to reload the game when switching some settings -- and many times, from MT, it reloads the ST version, not the MT version!).
Ka-50 III, Caucasus, free-flight. Was blown away how smooth that was in Godlike (well, for 72 Hz with reprojection, that is). Played around for maybe 15 minutes. Then I tried Mi-24 because previously it was a massive no-go for me in VR, having around 20 FPS and stuttering. Wanted to see how it improved.
Well, it didnt. Still the stutterfest in Caucasus free flight.

PROBLEM:
After that, i tried Ka-50, same stutterfest, where before it was smoooooooooth.
Then tried Mig-29, because they arent the resource hogs. Caucasus free flight. Smooth.
Then tried ka-50 again. Stutterfest.
Then Mig-29 again. Now stutterfest. Game restart did not help.
This "leak" or "inheritance" is old problem, sometimes not even computer restart helps. I tried to search a lot about this. This doesnt seem to be vmemory leak, allocated ram was lower than the budget (in DCS builtin performance monitor) all the time, except for the Mi-24.

QUESTIONS:
Does this issue exist for others?
How do i search for or report this, what keywords should i use? (I dont want to duplicate reports if someone already reported this)
Why does DCS report my vRAM budget mostly at 6500MB (very rarely at 7200MB) when i have 8192 MB?

I know my rig is not optimal (see below), but that should not be the issue here, as the game was running well.

Edited October 31, 2023 by WolfCat
added: ", not my VR settings for this try"

[Qcumber]

11 minutes ago, WolfCat said:

Tried DLSS with my Pico 4. I used the graphics settings that I have for flatscreen (I hate that I have to reload the game when switching some settings -- and many times, from MT, it reloads the ST version, not the MT version!).
Ka-50 III, Caucasus, free-flight. Was blown away how smooth that was in Godlike (well, for 72 Hz with reprojection, that is). Played around for maybe 15 minutes. Then I tried Mi-24 because previously it was a massive no-go for me in VR, having around 20 FPS and stuttering. Wanted to see how it improved.
Well, it didnt. Still the stutterfest in Caucasus free flight.

PROBLEM:
After that, i tried Ka-50, same stutterfest, where before it was smoooooooooth.
Then tried Mig-29, because they arent the resource hogs. Caucasus free flight. Smooth.
Then tried ka-50 again. Stutterfest.
Then Mig-29 again. Now stutterfest. Game restart did not help.
This is old problem, sometimes not even computer restart helps. I tried to search a lot about this. This doesnt seem to be vmemory leak, allocated ram was lower than the budget (in DCS builtin performance monitor) all the time, except for the Mi-24.

QUESTIONS:
Does this issue exist for others?
How do i search for or report this, what keywords should i use? (I dont want to duplicate reports if someone already reported this)
Why does DCS report my vRAM budget mostly at 6500MB (very rarely at 7200MB) when i have 8192 MB?

I know my rig is not optimal (see below), but that should not be the issue here, as the game was running well.

 

I would suggest starting with low DCS settings, pixel density at 1 and VD at ultra. If you are using steam VR then make sure this is set to 100% and not auto. See if you can get 72 fps without reprojection with these settings. You could also try using Quad View Foveated Rendering (mbucchia software) at default settings. This will massively reduce your GPU load. See if you can then push VD to Godlike. Then try increasing the DCS settings one by one to see which have the biggest performance hits and try to maintain 72 fps. If you can't then try locking fps to 60 with OXRTK. Unfortunately this is a bit of sustained process to get optimal performance. It can take a while. 

[WolfCat]

Hi Qcumber, thank you, but finding graphics settings was not the question. I have a setting for VR. The question is the bad performance that seems to be inherited form other session.

[Qcumber]

4 minutes ago, WolfCat said:

Hi Qcumber, thank you, but finding graphics settings was not the question. I have a setting for VR. The question is the bad performance that seems to be inherited form other session.

It sounds like your settings are at the edge of what your system can handle so that with a simple map and less demanding aircraft you can manage 36 fps which reprojected to 72. If I understand this right, then when you use another map with a more demanding aircraft your fps drops below 36fps and so your system cannot maintain reprojection at 72. If I have this wrong then sorry for my misunderstanding. It might be worth trying lower settings to see if you get the same problem.