Have a totally redone damage model for AI helicopters

[Kappa-131st]

Since always in DCS, AI helicopters are even more armored than a T-90 !

In our last squadron mission, I had to fire at least 3 or 4 Vikhr (All splash) to destroy a Mi-24.
Since Black Shark 3, we now have IGLAS.
But it seems that we have to swing at least our 4 iglas to hope to destroy a single Mi-24!
Most AI helicopters are overpowered, overarmored, they resist ATGMs, IR missiles, and even 30mm bursts...!

It is high time for AI to be more vulnerable than at present.
If a helicopter "survives" an IGLA or a Vikhr, it should be in very bad shape.
And if there is a "missile splash", it should result in the destruction of the target in 90% of cases!

A lot of Helicopter is as resistant. Mi-24, Mi-8, Chinook...

Edited December 21, 2022 by Kappa-131st

[Ephedrin]

Lol yes!

 

recently I watched a Mi8 in a dynamic campaign fly 100 km back to its farp… on flames and like suiss cheese. 
 

just last night in another mission I flew the Harrier and fired 2 Sidewinders into another red Mi8, it smoked but flew. Then I sent an F-Maverick after it which finally vaporized the poor chopper. 
 

The AI damage model really desperately requires a rework. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ephedrin

[Tank50us]

Technically, it's not just AI helos... player helos are just as tanky against anything but a direct sniper shot to the pilots face.

The key thing to remember with all of the DCS Helicopters is that it's not just about what hits them, it's about where they're hit. Sure, you can pump as much ammo into an MI-8 as you want... but if all of those shots are into the troop compartment and nothing vital gets hit, it's not going to go down. But a single hit to the tail boom, and bobs your uncle, it's not going to remain in the air for very long. Same holds true if your shots land on the engines or cockpit.

Now, I will admit that the damage modeling could use some work (I've seen telephone-pole sized SM-2s hit helicopters in the face to no effect FFS), but right now, with all of the other things ED needs to fix, this is something a bit lower on the plate compared to getting the new API up and running.

[Kappa-131st]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:55 AM, Tank50us said:

Technically, it's not just AI helos... player helos are just as tanky against anything but a direct sniper shot to the pilots face.

The key thing to remember with all of the DCS Helicopters is that it's not just about what hits them, it's about where they're hit. Sure, you can pump as much ammo into an MI-8 as you want... but if all of those shots are into the troop compartment and nothing vital gets hit, it's not going to go down. But a single hit to the tail boom, and bobs your uncle, it's not going to remain in the air for very long. Same holds true if your shots land on the engines or cockpit.

Now, I will admit that the damage modeling could use some work (I've seen telephone-pole sized SM-2s hit helicopters in the face to no effect FFS), but right now, with all of the other things ED needs to fix, this is something a bit lower on the plate compared to getting the new API up and running.

I'm not sure... If I take an IGLA (Manpad) on my Kamov, I'm sure dead.
And I'm not even talking about taking 2 or 3 shot...

Strictly speaking, I may be lucky enough to be able to "survive" an IGLA, but my helicopter would be a mess, without hydraulics, systems...
In PvP with our squadron, a Vikhr is more than enough to completely explode a Kamov. But if I fire a Vikhr at an AI Kamov, I've barely done any damage to it, I make a lua script to print the HP of a Kamov after a direct hit and I saw 93.3333% life... So the damage pattern is clearly not the same between AIs and players.

ED say in the last patch note : "Note: We are investigating Igla damage level."
But I don't think the damage level of Igla is the issue. I think AI Helicopter are too armored, the issue is the same with Vikhr for example. Vikhr can kill a T-90 but not a mi-8 on a direct hit ? I don't think so !

I know there is a notion of armored & where the impact hit... But actually, you must spend all yours weapon to kill a MI-8... Watch how easy the Mi-24 or Mi-8 crash when they are shot by a manpad in Ukraine...

 

Yesterday, I developped a script to make AI helicopter take dommage when hiting by missile. It work pretty fine!
But it's not an end... It's a workaround to wait while ED fixes the problem

local eventhit = {}
function eventhit:onEvent(event)
    if event.id ~= 2 then return false end -- exit on other event than "hit"
    if not event.weapon then return false end --exit if no weapon info (ex:collision)
    if not event.weapon:getDesc()["missileCategory"] then return false end -- exit if weapon is not a missile
    if not event.target:hasAttribute("Helicopters") then return false end --exit if target is not an helicopter
    event.target =     Unit.getByName(event.target:getName())    --Transform Object class to Unit class
    if event.target == nil then return false end -- If target is destroy before get the unit class, return false
    if event.target:getPlayerName()~= nil then return false end --exit if target is a player (no issue with the damage model for the players)
    trigger.action.explosion(event.target:getPoint(),3) -- Explode volume 3 on the center of the helicopter, witch destroy his engine.
end
world.addEventHandler(eventhit)

With this script, All AI helicopters hit by a missile will suffer fatal damage, regardless of their "armour". They will not explode but they will suffer damage which will cause them to crash a few seconds after impact. I assume that no helicopter, no matter how heavily armored, can survive a direct missile hit without being seriously damaged.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Kappa-131st

[Kappa-131st]

Video of a Mi-24 hit by a manpad. It is not a question of where the missile hit the helicopter. The missile destroy totaly the cockpit, the engine, all.

And it is probably a Igla or a Stinger missile. If this is an IGLA, this is praticly the same missile we have on BS3.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Kappa-131st

[Ephedrin]

Am 22.12.2022 um 14:32 schrieb Kappa-131st:

Video of a Mi-24 hit by a manpad. It is not a question of where the missile hit the helicopter. The missile destroy totaly the cockpit, the engine, all.

And it is probably a Igla or a Stinger missile. If this is an IGLA, this is praticly the same missile we have on BS3.

 

 

When I‘m hit by a Manpad I usually go down in the Mi24, sometimes dead right away, sometimes with an engine or control failure, sometimes with no tail rotor. The AI Igla doesn‘t track very well though so I often hear a bang but it actually missed me. Stingers seem to be preciser. Could be true but I just don‘t know it. 
 

AI choppers just don‘t die at all though unless you take a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Or as we‘d say in Germany: you take a cannon ball to shoot a sparrow.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Ephedrin

[Kappa-131st]

Edit : Correction of script

[TheGhostOfDefi]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:55 AM, Tank50us said:

Technically, it's not just AI helos... player helos are just as tanky against anything but a direct sniper shot to the pilots face.

The key thing to remember with all of the DCS Helicopters is that it's not just about what hits them, it's about where they're hit. Sure, you can pump as much ammo into an MI-8 as you want... but if all of those shots are into the troop compartment and nothing vital gets hit, it's not going to go down. But a single hit to the tail boom, and bobs your uncle, it's not going to remain in the air for very long. Same holds true if your shots land on the engines or cockpit.

Now, I will admit that the damage modeling could use some work (I've seen telephone-pole sized SM-2s hit helicopters in the face to no effect FFS), but right now, with all of the other things ED needs to fix, this is something a bit lower on the plate compared to getting the new API up and running.

I have to disagree with you. On multiple occasions me and my friends had absolutely different expiriences. I for example, hit a Mi-24 with a Hellfire in the Cockpit and it is still flying and even continued firing on me and, my favorit part, killed my Pilots for example.

A common situation is that a (Insert random Helicopter flown by DCS AI) flys supplies on a server (for ex. on Foothold) and you do not even have the ability to destroy it with a single AIM-120 / 7 / 9. A AIM-54 has potential to work but with anything smaller you just need multiple missiles. And this isnt the exception its the norm...

 

So in summary we can say that the damage model is NOT the one of the Player but rather the Terminator .

 

But i agree with you that this shouldnt be priority One. Still with the rapidly growing community of rotarys and logistics its not as trivial as you may think.

Disclaimer: As always pls read this text with a neutral voice.

Edited February 23, 2023 by TheGhostOfDefi

[Ironghost]

Il 22/12/2022 at 14:09, Kappa-131st ha scritto:

Non ne sono sicuro... Se prendo un IGLA (Manpad) sul mio Kamov, sono sicuro che muoio.
E non sto nemmeno parlando di fare 2 o 3 scatti...

A rigor di termini, potrei avere la fortuna di "sopravvivere" a un IGLA, ma il mio elicottero sarebbe un disastro, senza idraulica, sistemi...
In PvP con il nostro squadrone, un Vikhr è più che sufficiente per far esplodere completamente un Kamov. Ma se sparo con un Vikhr contro un AI Kamov, non gli ho quasi fatto alcun danno, creo uno script lua per stampare gli HP di un Kamov dopo un colpo diretto e ho visto il 93,3333% di vita... Quindi lo schema del danno chiaramente non è la stessa cosa tra IA e giocatori.

ED dice nell'ultima nota della patch: " Nota: stiamo indagando sul livello di danno di Igla. "
Ma non credo che il problema sia il livello dei danni di Igla. Penso che gli elicotteri AI siano troppo corazzati, il problema è lo stesso con Vikhr, ad esempio. Vikhr può uccidere un T-90 ma non un Mi-8 con un colpo diretto? Non credo!

So che esiste il concetto di blindato e di dove avviene l'impatto... Ma in realtà, devi spendere tutte le tue armi per uccidere un MI-8... Guarda quanto è facile che il Mi-24 o il Mi-8 si schiantino quando vengono colpiti da un manpad in Ucraina...

 

Ieri ho sviluppato uno script per far sì che l'elicottero AI subisca danni quando viene colpito da un missile. Funziona piuttosto bene!
Ma non è la fine... È una soluzione alternativa aspettare che ED risolva il problema

 locale  eventhit   =    {}  
 funzione   eventhit   :   onEvent   (   evento   )  
     se   evento   .    id   ~=    2    quindi    restituisce    false    end    - esci su un evento diverso da "hit"  
     se    non   su event   .    arma   quindi    restituisce    false    end    --exit se nessuna informazione sull'arma (es: collisione)  
     se    non   evento   .    arma   :   getDesc   ()[   "missileCategory"   ]    quindi    restituisce    false    end    - esci se l'arma non è un missile  
     se    non è   un evento   .    target   :   hasAttribute   (   "Elicotteri"   )    quindi    restituisce    false    end    --exit se il bersaglio non è un elicottero  
  evento   .    obiettivo   =   Unità   .    getByName   (   event   .   target   :   getName   ())       --Trasforma la classe Oggetto in classe Unit  
     se   event   .    target   ==    nil    then    return    false    end    -- Se il target viene distrutto prima di ottenere la classe unitaria, restituisce false  
     se   event   .    target   :   getPlayerName   ()~=    nil    then    return    false    end    --exit se il target è un giocatore (nessun problema con il modello di danno per i giocatori)  
  innesco   .    azione   .    esplosione   (   event   .   target   :   getPoint   (),   3   )    -- Fa esplodere il volume 3 al centro dell'elicottero, distruggendo il suo motore.  
  FINE  
  mondo   .    addEventHandler   (   eventoit   )  

Con questo script, tutti gli elicotteri IA colpiti da un missile subiranno danni fatali, indipendentemente dalla loro "armatura". Non esploderanno ma subiranno danni che li faranno schiantare pochi secondi dopo l'impatto. Presumo che nessun elicottero, non importa quanto pesantemente corazzato, possa sopravvivere a un colpo missilistico diretto senza essere gravemente danneggiato.

 

 

I'm sorry where should these lines be inserted?

[Kappa-131st]

On 8/23/2023 at 3:01 PM, Ironghost said:

I'm sorry where should these lines be inserted?

Trigger : Do Script

[Silver_Dragon]

On 12/21/2022 at 11:37 PM, Kappa-131st said:

Since always in DCS, AI helicopters are even more armored than a T-90 !

In our last squadron mission, I had to fire at least 3 or 4 Vikhr (All splash) to destroy a Mi-24.
Since Black Shark 3, we now have IGLAS.
But it seems that we have to swing at least our 4 iglas to hope to destroy a single Mi-24!
Most AI helicopters are overpowered, overarmored, they resist ATGMs, IR missiles, and even 30mm bursts...!

It is high time for AI to be more vulnerable than at present.
If a helicopter "survives" an IGLA or a Vikhr, it should be in very bad shape.
And if there is a "missile splash", it should result in the destruction of the target in 90% of cases!

A lot of Helicopter is as resistant. Mi-24, Mi-8, Chinook...

 

ED helos and modern aircraft continue use old damage models from LOMAC / FC. ED continue working on implement the DM tested on WW2 on modern content. Now we have waiting about news over there.

[Kappa-131st]

14 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

ED helos and modern aircraft continue use old damage models from LOMAC / FC. ED continue working on implement the DM tested on WW2 on modern content. Now we have waiting about news over there.

Thanks for the news.
But we are awaiting that for for than 10 years
So I prefere to use my script ^^ It work well

Last version of my script
(add another way to kill ennemy without explosion if you use 20 or 30mm with warhead, or with explosion for missile)

local eventhit_helicopter = {}
function eventhit_helicopter:onEvent(event)
    if event.id ~= 2 then return false end-- if not event hit : exit
	if not event.weapon then return false end -- if no weapon : exit (ex: crash)
	if not event.weapon:getDesc()["warhead"] then return false end -- if not an ogive : exit
	if not event.target:hasAttribute("Helicopters") then return false end --if target is not helicopter : exit
	event.target = 	Unit.getByName(event.target:getName())	
	if event.target == nil then return false end  --If target is yet destroy : exit
	if event.target:getPlayerName()~= nil then return false end --if target is player : exit
	if event.weapon:getDesc()["missileCategory"] ~= nil then --if weapon is a missile then
		trigger.action.explosion(event.target:getPoint(),3) --little explosion on the center of target	
	end
	trigger.action.setUnitInternalCargo(event.target:getName() , 5000000)--set target mass to make target fall like a stone (for 20 or 30mm canon)
end
world.addEventHandler(eventhit_helicopter)

 

Edited May 21, 2024 by Kappa-131st

[HawaiianRyan]

4 hours ago, Kappa-131st said:

Thanks for the news.
But we are awaiting that for for than 10 years
So I prefere to use my script ^^ It work well

Last version of my script
(add another way to kill ennemy without explosion if you use 20 or 30mm with warhead, or with explosion for missile)

local eventhit_helicopter = {}
function eventhit_helicopter:onEvent(event)
    if event.id ~= 2 then return false end-- if not event hit : exit
	if not event.weapon then return false end -- if no weapon : exit (ex: crash)
	if not event.weapon:getDesc()["warhead"] then return false end -- if not an ogive : exit
	if not event.target:hasAttribute("Helicopters") then return false end --if target is not helicopter : exit
	event.target = 	Unit.getByName(event.target:getName())	
	if event.target == nil then return false end  --If target is yet destroy : exit
	if event.target:getPlayerName()~= nil then return false end --if target is player : exit
	if event.weapon:getDesc()["missileCategory"] ~= nil then --if weapon is a missile then
		trigger.action.explosion(event.target:getPoint(),3) --little explosion on the center of target	
	end
	trigger.action.setUnitInternalCargo(event.target:getName() , 5000000)--set target mass to make target fall like a stone (for 20 or 30mm canon)
end
world.addEventHandler(eventhit_helicopter)

 

 

Thank you!

[HawaiianRyan]

This script seems to error in DCS 2.9.7.59074 on the line:

 

event.target =     Unit.getByName(event.target:getName())

 

2024-08-17 03:09:49.125 ERROR   SCRIPTING (Main): Mission script error: [string "<script path>"]:724: Weapon doesn't exist

[Kappa-131st]

20 hours ago, HawaiianRyan said:

This script seems to error in DCS 2.9.7.59074 on the line:

 

event.target =     Unit.getByName(event.target:getName())

 

2024-08-17 03:09:49.125 ERROR   SCRIPTING (Main): Mission script error: [string "<script path>"]:724: Weapon doesn't exist

Are you sure ?
The error message you show ("weapon does not exist") does not correspond to the line you indicate, (There is no questions of weaponry in this line).

The following lines is supposed to guarantee that the weapon exists:

if not event.weapon then return false end -- if no weapon : exit (ex: crash)
if not event.weapon:getDesc()["warhead"] then return false end -- if not an ogive : exit

so if your weapon does not exist (nil) then it exit the function

Are you sure it isn't another script who bug ? (line 724, this script have only 15 lines...) ?

Edited August 17, 2024 by Kappa-131st

[HawaiianRyan]

20 hours ago, Kappa-131st said:

Are you sure ?

 

After a lot more extensive testing, it was a mod by Hawkeye60 that was hosing all sorts of event detection and other issues, not just with this logic, but throughout MOOSE as well and it even broke putting ground units in the ME.

Pulling that mod restored all functionality and removed the nonsensical stack trace.