Force feedback question

[oho]

Hi all,

How good are the FFB effects?

I have a saitek X45 with throttle where I could use 2 4-directional pinkie-head-switches and 2 buttons, in addition I have cougar force-feedback Joystick with only 4 buttons, one trigger and 1 4-head-pinkie head switch. I wonder if that's sufficient or if I it's worth it to get a force-feedback-joystick with more buttons. What's your recomendation?

What is a good ffb-joystick for this sim, or is a non ffb-stick like the X45 good enough?

Thanks for your replies.

[Yellonet]

Yes, non-FF is good enough but FF is better. Unfortunately everyone recommends the Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2 which no longer is available except for second hand.

I would like to know if for example the Saitek FF sticks are any good.

[CyBerkut]

I would like to know if for example the Saitek FF sticks are any good.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=35052

 

particularly:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=35052&page=4

 

The prevailing wisdom from people in the know, such as Urze, is that the MSFFB2 is the best choice.

 

I'm not wild about dealing with buying used sticks over eBay, so I'm going to try out a Saitek Cyborg evo Force and see what I can get out of it. If that pans out, it should be the start of something interesting.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I'm not wild about dealing with buying used sticks over eBay, so I'm going to try out a Saitek Cyborg evo Force and see what I can get out of it. If that pans out, it should be the start of something interesting.

I got it few weeks ago, specifically to play Black Shark with it.

 

And I am not happy how it performs in BS. In my opinion, the problem is not with the Cyborg Evo Force stick. To demonstrate that, I made a little movie.

 

And unfortunately I don't have a solution for this problem.

[oho]

Thanks for the replies.

I have some more questions:

Hajduk Veljko: is the effect really so bad, that you would better fly without FFB and

What other effects are transmitted via a FFB Stick, like vibration of the aircraft, hits, weapon, airframe stress and so on. Are these effects feelable on the stick?

And: are 4 buttons and a pinkie 8 way switch and a trigger enough?

[skoiboy]

Everyone keeps leaving out what I think is the ideal joystick for this sim:

 

The old Logitech Wingman Force

 

Here's an example on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logitech-WingMan-Force_W0QQitemZ290289064098QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Joysticks_Game_Controllers?hash=item290289064098&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318

 

It has the old style belt driven force feedback which is amazing. Great look and feel and great sensitivity. The only negative is the footprint. I've been using it and I love it.

 

If I remember correctly I bought it over the Microsoft FFB2 because it had better reviews at the time.

 

Even better they aren't as well known so the prices on ebay aren't crazy yet.

 

Anyone else using this?

[Zakk]

Your stick is working FINE--when you press the (T) trim, it trims your flight control surfaces to your last input. What did you expect it to do? This is actually quite useful as now you can actually feel where your stick is instead of having to look at the trim/control box overlay.

[Zakk]

"The old Logitech Wingman Force

Here's an example on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logitech-WingMan...3A1|240%3A1318"

 

 

 

You couldn't pay me to own that huge hunk of plastic--leave it on eJunk where it belongs--stuff like this is what I just throw in the trash.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

...is the effect really so bad, that you would better fly without FFB and

Its not that the "effects" are bad. It is one and only one thing that the FF mechanism of the joystick should do. And that is keep it in a position when T is pressed. And it does NOT do that with Saitek Evo Force. Some people cut and removed the spring from it. Which shuold not be done as I demonstrated in the movie.

 

And to answer your question, yes Saiatek Evo Force, in my view, is not usable in BS. I am back using my X52 pro.

 

What other effects are transmitted via a FFB Stick, like vibration of the aircraft, hits, weapon, airframe stress and so on. Are these effects feelable on the stick?

I don't know of other effects, but I hope there is none.

 

And: are 4 buttons and a pinkie 8 way switch and a trigger enough?

Enough is relative term. There is never enough buttons on HOTAS. However, on that Evo Force, five buttons with the trigger, hat switch and function buttons is plenty for HOTAS flying with occasional use of keyboard. Edited January 21, 2009 by =4c= Hajduk Veljko

[crazysundog]

I would also like to throw my $0.02...

 

I had the same experience that Hajduk demonstrated in his video with my evo force.

 

When i release the trim button, the stick does not stay where it is, but moves slightly towards center. A MSFFB2 will stay where it is told... and that is why I am stopping at every second hand and pawn shop i drive by.

[815TooCooL]

Don't waste your money on Saitek Evo force & Dogitech force.

I owned them all but they were just made *wrong* , eventually you'll go for 2 or 3 reserve MSFFB2 like me. :D

[oho]

Hi all,

thanks for the answers. Still got questions:

1. how do you fly with 4 or 5 buttons on the stick (your recommendated sticks don't have more than my Saitek Cyborg which works fine with all sims up to now) allthough you need much more?

What's your setup or do you use special software?

2. Which forces are emulated on the stick in BS? - like in MS-FS you "feel" wind gusts, airframe stress and so on...

[Weta43]

For some reason you appear to still have centering forces active.

In my stick these can be turned off in the software (though the FFB works fine without this)

Don't know the stick or the software that comes with it (I assume it doesn't have a spring for return), but see if you can turn the centering forces off in the software.

 

What forces are emulated - those that are created by actual aircraft, not ones added to enhance the game experience.

[skoiboy]

<<"The old Logitech Wingman Force

Here's an example on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logitech-WingMan...3A1|240%3A1318"

You couldn't pay me to own that huge hunk of plastic--leave it on eJunk where it belongs--stuff like this is what I just throw in the trash.>>

 

 

I assume your comment isn't based on ownership, but ignorance.

[Mogster]

I have the same experience with my MSFF2 as is shown in the video.

 

I press and release the trimmer key but the stick doesn't stay where it should. It seems to have two trim positions, centre and way far forward and nothing inbetween. Up to 45 degrees forward from centre if I press trimmer the stick still returns to centre. beyond 45 degrees of travel pressing the trimmer makes a new centre point about 45 degrees forward.

[Nayles]

I have the same experience with my MSFF2 as is shown in the video.

 

I press and release the trimmer key but the stick doesn't stay where it should. It seems to have two trim positions, centre and way far forward and nothing inbetween. Up to 45 degrees forward from centre if I press trimmer the stick still returns to centre. beyond 45 degrees of travel pressing the trimmer makes a new centre point about 45 degrees forward.

 

Have you swapped the FF axis in the FFTune settings ingame?

 

I use MSFF2 and think it's brilliant and works beautifully (once I'd swapped the Axis).

[oho]

Has anybody experience with the saitek cyborg force stick?

[rapid]

your answer is in this thread.:book:

[oho]

well, I have a cyborg force stick (without evo) ;-)

which is an older one.

[Kurtz]

I got it few weeks ago, specifically to play Black Shark with it.

 

And I am not happy how it performs in BS. In my opinion, the problem is not with the Cyborg Evo Force stick. To demonstrate that, I made a little movie.

 

And unfortunately I don't have a solution for this problem.

 

I went down the same path a few weeks back with the EVO FF. The solution to your problen is disabling the return spring. This can be done quite easily by lifting the spring retainer and drilling a small hole through shaft to accomodate a pin[paperclip will do]. This keeps the spring out of play, and is easily removed for other games. I still wasnt happy with the dead zone between the Force input.

 

Read Here- http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2645535/X52pro_Throttle_plus_Saitek_EV.html#Post2645535

 

I came to the conclusion in the end that there is currently no quality FF flightsticks on the market at present. Heres a couple of pics. Click on picks for enlargement to see pin.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2009 by Kurtz

[rapid]

 

 

I came to the conclusion in the end that there is currently no quality FF flightsticks on the market at present. Heres a couple of pics. Click on picks for enlargement to see pin.

 

 

 

you hit the nail on the head the only current solution is made by Urze.

check his steb out>> Clicky

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The most intriguing fact is that the OLD FF stick is working and the NEW FF (Saitek and Logitech) sticks are not?

 

Another fact is that there is plenty of power in the Saitek Evo Force to move and hold the stick in any position. Without compressing or removing the centering spring. I demonstrated that with the use of the test force utility program.

 

Pretty soon there will be no more MSFF sticks around. The old sticks will eventually fail too. And then what? No FF sticks for BS. Don't forget, Apache is comming as well. How cool would it be to fly that with the good NEW FF set up?

[opformaster]

My franken force is logitech based and it works. I removed the centering springs and the trimmer works even better now. I did get some of that pitching you talk about hajduk but since I have removed the springs from the CH Force FX gimbal its a 100% better. If i had a saitek evo force I would open it up and see if their are any internal springs that may be causing erroneous inputs. warranty we dont need no stinking warranty!

[spybaz]

A bit redundant but, I use the X52 over the MSFF2 (which I have and use for non-sims like BF2) because being able to assign virtually all of the keystrokes to the HOTAS is fantastic. No reaching for the keyboard for me!

With the centering spring on the X52 I have no problems returning my cyclic to center within 0.5 secs of hitting the trimmer button.

[Weta43]

I think you have your answer HV - disable the spring while using BS.

The FFB works fine, your stick is working against it...