Campaign progress: Am I missing something?

[LennyLloyd]

Hi all, my first post here. Great sim, totally love it, and a great community too. I have a question though:

 

It seems that if your pilot has 'invulnerability' enabled, you move on to the next mission once you've completed your objectives, even if you die before you exit.

 

However, if you have invulnerability off, then if you die you have to go right back to square one with all your campaigns and stats.

 

Isn't there some way to play the campaign so that you have to be alive at the end of a mission in order to progress, but don't have to restart everything if you die? Am I missing something here?

[sobek]

Hi there, you can always choose to replay a mission and try to stay alive till the end :-)

[LennyLloyd]

Hi, that's true, but what if you wanted to quit BS so you can watch an episode of the Simpsons you've already seen 700 times? Seems you'd have no choice but to go on to the next mission, even though you hit the tower trying to land.

 

Am I right on this?

[McVittees]

Nope, your not missing anything. Really if you get a mission score from destroying enemy forces, whether or not you survive won't impact its effect on the enemy...(until of course your helicopter isn't there to fly the next mission, but in BS it is!). I guess your stuck with sobek's suggestion! :)

[sobek]

You can use the pause switch and switch your os to sleep mode. Only thing i can think of now, sry. I do not know how the game performs when booting from sleep mode, there are some apps that can't take it, so try at your own risk.

[LennyLloyd]

Hey, thanks for the replies. I'm kind of annoyed by this. I'd enjoy the campaign a lot more if you could opt to be able to try a mission multiple times.

Would it work if you restarted the mission after death and quit right away before you rack up any mission score, or would you just risk a 'campaign failed' screen?

 

I guess the way it is right now it's like an old school arcade game, wherein, if you die, you just have to start again from scratch. Not too many missions in a campaign, so I suppose I could live with that.

[EvilBivol-1]

It depends on how the mission/campaign designers set the mission goals. It's possible to include "player is alive" as a mission goal, but if it is not done, then it is not counted.

 

If you know you died during the mission, can't you re-fly it?

[LennyLloyd]

Do the stock campaigns use 'player is alive' as a mission goal?

You could refly the mission, but what if you want to quit the program? It'd be really good if you could just save your current mission so if you died in a mission after completing your objectives you could go for a little cry, or play Fallout, then come back and try the mission again.

Seems like an odd choice to nominally move on to the next mission instead of having to retry. Doesn't it?

(This is all with 'invulnerability' on, of course. With it off, you have to start from scratch, which is a good option to have, I think)

[EvilBivol-1]

Do the stock campaigns use 'player is alive' as a mission goal?

EDIT - See follow-up post.

You could refly the mission, but what if you want to quit the program? It'd be really good if you could just save your current mission so if you died in a mission after completing your objectives you could go for a little cry, or play Fallout, then come back and try the mission again.

All you have to do is quit the mission, hit Refly and Unpause the game. The campaign engine will now (re)register you in the current phase. You are then free to cry your heart out.

Seems like an odd choice to nominally move on to the next mission instead of having to retry. Doesn't it?

Well, I agree that 'player is alive' should probably be a rule for mission success. On the other hand, the current setup gives you all the options anyone could want - you can move forward, you can refly, you can restart. Edited January 26, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[EvilBivol-1]

Just opened a Deployment mission and 'player is alive' is in fact counted. Perhaps it isn't the case in all of the missions.

 

Player death is also counted in the GOW campaign and is set to subtract 51 points from your score. Given that anything over 50 points will move you forward a phase, under 50 points will move you back a phase, and an even 50 will keep you in the current phase, what actually happens will depend on your overall score.

Edited January 26, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[uhoh7]

Hey, thanks for the replies. I'm kind of annoyed by this. I'd enjoy the campaign a lot more if you could opt to be able to try a mission multiple times.

Would it work if you restarted the mission after death and quit right away before you rack up any mission score, or would you just risk a 'campaign failed' screen?

 

I guess the way it is right now it's like an old school arcade game, wherein, if you die, you just have to start again from scratch. Not too many missions in a campaign, so I suppose I could live with that.

 

I was frustrated by the GOC at first also. If you succeed, it's very good. If you fail you fly similiar missions often.

 

The GOC is just a series of many missions, which each have some random aspects.

 

Every mission in the GOC can be opened and flown as a single mission.

 

After some bitching, I realised this, and began selecting missions at different stages of the campaign, for variety. This kept my interest as my skills evolved.

 

I now apreciate the the campaign much more---last nite I went back and flew some of the early missions and had a blast.

 

Some day somebody will make a campaign where you start in the "middle". So when you start failing your forces retreat to the same degree they advance in the GOC. That way failure would bring all sorts of new fresh catastrophic situations.

 

I think this is entirely possible with the current camapign creator and mission editor, though I could be wrong.

 

Bottom line: if you get bored dying in similar missions, open some different ones in the campaign via "mission", then open campaign folder. Every campaign mission is in there, from begining to end.

[EvilBivol-1]

When you fail a mission (0-49 points), you get rolled back a phase. If you win a mission (51-100 points), you get moved up a phase. If you tie (50 points), you stay in the same phase and either fly a different mission (if provided in the phase) or re-fly the same mission (if it's the only available in the phase). When creating a campaign, you can build as many phases as you want and set the starting phase anywhere you want, so the player can move forward or back through phases as far as you want. You can include as many missions per phase as you want and you can assign a point range to each mission to determine which is chosen based on the player's score in the previous flown.

 

How a campaign designer chooses to utilize these tools is up to him. You can create a relatively simple linear campaign, such as Deployment or you can create a multi-threaded complex campaign, where the player can move forward or back through phases, with multiple missions per phase. GOW is more of the latter, where each phase simulates a change in the FLOT line as the player wins or loses missions.

Edited January 27, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[ericinexile]

I edit every mission in the campaign before I play it. The only thing I ever change is the "Player Dead=Score -51" rule. I do this because I know of few wars where the death of a single two-bit warrior results in the loss of that war.

 

Smokin' Hole

[uhoh7]

When you fail a mission (0-49 points), you get rolled back a phase. If you win a mission (51-100 points), you get moved up a phase. If you tie (50 points), you stay in the same phase and either fly a different mission (if provided in the phase) or re-fly the same mission (if it's the only available in the phase). When creating a campaign, you can build as many phases as you want and set the starting phase anywhere you want, so the player can move forward or back through phases as far as you want. You can include as many missions per phase as you want and you can assign a point range to each mission to determine which is chosen based on the player's score in the previous flown.

 

How a campaign designer chooses to utilize these tools is up to him. You can create a relatively simple linear campaign, such as Deployment or you can create a multi-threaded complex campaign, where the player can move forward or back through phases, with multiple missions per phase. GOW is more of the latter, where each phase simulates a change in the FLOT line as the player wins or loses missions.

 

EB I know by multiple posts you know the ME well. My only question is: when are we gonna see some missions from you, sir? :)

[EvilBivol-1]

See Altitude and Night Patrol. :)

 

Yeah, they're not that great...

 

...but I did spend a ton of time making them! Mostly, it was a learning experience.

[LennyLloyd]

Thanks for the info guys. Wasn't aware of the ins and outs of the campaign points system. Interesting.

Still, it seems what I'm looking for is a campaign where every mission has 'player is alive' as a mission goal. Or would that just dock you some points if you died and move you to another mission in whatever phase you've earned instead of allowing you to retry the mission you died in?

Ah, maybe I should just bite the bullet and fly with invulnerability off. I'll probably be biting a lot of bullets. HE shells too. And stingers.

[ericinexile]

In the mission editor scroll through the mission goals (third icon from the top under "Mis") and edit either the Goals or the Rules. It soundls like cheating and it is--at least from the perspective of the mission writer, but it is your game and your playing experience and you obviously don't think your death should lose the war. I think that's very big of you :D.

 

If you want to take cheating a step further, you can edit the campaign so that it starts at any stage you want. So, if you were killed in mission 8.2 but otherwise accomplished all that was asked of you and disagree with being knocked back to 7.1, you can edit the campaign to start at stage 8 or 9 depending on how big of a cheat you are--I'd personally go with 9.

 

Smokin' Hole

[lucasdigital]

Ah now I understand better. I've been confused by having played through countless missions in the 'Georgian Oil War - chapter 1' campaign, only to end up flight missions like 'security guard' again and again, even when I've succeeded in the mission objectives.

 

So if I have a lousy run, with a number of deaths, I lose points even if I refly the mission? I've had the mission fail screen come up a few times, I've then reflown. Does a win then push me back above the campaign failure score? though it was getting a bit repetitive, I'm still enjoying it, and look forward to having the experience and the time to create my own campaign.

[LennyLloyd]

This semi-dynamic campaign lark is all a bit newfangled for an IL2 fan like me. Campaigns that are actually interesting and fun? Heresy.

Anyway, I guess my original desire, to have a campaign that only progresses if you end a mission alive, but won't reset to square 1 if you die, isn't possible in the current system.

[RockStar]

I had an issue last night with the Deployment campaign on the Narzan Valley mission. I hit fly, I did'nt un-pause the game. I realized I needed to turn on my CH profile, so I exited the sim. When I got back into the mission to fly the campaign had incremented to the Rescue mission. I ended up re-starting the campaign from the beginning because I did'nt want to skip any missions. I was also ready to turn off the icons and turned invulnerability off, so no big deal really. Moral of the story...Don't leave the mission unless you are truly ready to move to the next one...just in case.

[ericinexile]

This semi-dynamic campaign lark is all a bit newfangled for an IL2 fan like me. Campaigns that are actually interesting and fun? Heresy.

Anyway, I guess my original desire, to have a campaign that only progresses if you end a mission alive, but won't reset to square 1 if you die, isn't possible in the current system.

 

Well sure its possible. Its purely up to the campaign designer. Unless I'm missing something, a player's death will only set you back in the campaign if the designer wrote in a score reduction based on that death. And even that isn't a setback so long as you make your own edits before launching.

[LennyLloyd]

Ah, I see what you're getting at now, eric. A little slow, sorry. You're saying that removing the points penalty for death won't lead to you going back a phase and possibly repeating old missions etc.

My beef is more that I'd like there to be no consequence at all for player death, other than you have to refly exactly the same mission you died in and survive to the end to progress, regardless of how many points you earned in the mission.

 

Am I making sense?

[ericinexile]

Sure...perfect sense. There is nothing built in to the Mission or Campaign editors that are automatic. Death, progress, victory, defeat, and SCORE are all programmed by the mission designer by way of Mission Goals and Rules. The writer of the Oil War Campaigns thought your death should take 51 points off your score which results almost automatically in your stepping back a stage (a score of 50 stays in a stage, >50 advances to the next stage, <50 steps you back). That's his business of course but fortunately ED made all missions fully editable (is that a word?). Read the GUI manual if you haven't already, then find a campaign mission and really look into all the nuts and bolts of that mission, including triggers and hidden units. It's not super user-friendly but its easy once you understand the logic.

 

The Campaigns are also editable (that word still doesn't look right). All you will probably want to do is change which stage the campaign will start with after defeat or reset.

[uhoh7]

This semi-dynamic campaign lark is all a bit newfangled for an IL2 fan like me. Campaigns that are actually interesting and fun? Heresy.

Anyway, I guess my original desire, to have a campaign that only progresses if you end a mission alive, but won't reset to square 1 if you die, isn't possible in the current system.

 

Another way to do it is to check "permit crash recovery" in options. If you are hit and need to bail or are killed, you get an option to "recover" on the ESC dialog box. Hitting that will put you back on the FARP loaded and ready, with the mission exactly in the state as when you went down.

 

Since Wags has not given us long legs to ingress, you can just head back in. If your wingie is alive he will rejoin and respond as normal. I like this option better than "refly" because you don't repeat tasks, and since the ground vehicles don't go that fast you don't miss much either.

 

The ultimate, of course would be to play it where you must survive always---which is easliy done by setting "invulnerable" to "no" in the logbook. (not the same as "immortal" in gameplay options).

 

To get it the way you describe above, set Logbook to invulnerable/yes. I would have to test, but I'm pretty sure it will let you stay in with a kick to alternate or previous missions. Though at some stage it does tell you you have failed the campaign.

 

It really does play well when you have high percentages each mission, with good movement across the map for me ( after 60hrs and playing indivdual campaign missions to practice)

Edited January 28, 2009 by uhoh7

[LennyLloyd]

You know, editable IS a word, and a damn fine one too. For some reason it sounds to me like it describes something you can eat, but uh... it doesn't. It means something you can edit. Ignore me.