Would it be possible to add a portable GPS which can be mounted in every single cockpit?

[zerO_crash]

Hi,

 

Considering that there are numerous videos online showing Mi-24, Mi-8, L-39, etc... (american aircraft too) flying with portable GPS systems such as for example Garmin GPSMAP 66i, would it be possible to add something along the lines of a portable Garmin to DCS? I ask specifically for this, as the NS430 that we have in DCS is a mountable piece, one that simply does not fit each and every cockpit. A mobile GPS could however be used to further realism, as well as add a physical GPS (as opposed to the 2D - not a great option for realism or VR) for all modules.

 

zerO

[bies]

But why "every single cockpit"? I-16 Rata, Bf-109 or F-86 Sabre flying with GPS navigation as well? Why? Why even spending time and resources to make GPS for pre-GPS era modules?

[cfrag]

14 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

A mobile GPS could however be used to further realism,

While I'm not against this, I don't see how this would further realism - many cockpits (especially warbirds) have no provisions for mounting a GPS, some maps (Normandy, Channel come to mind) depict a time where GPS nav wasn't even conceived. GPS don't have to be fixed in a cockpit - I used to bring along a hand-held Garmin in my flight bag and simply put it on the dashboard; I think that a GPS screen/read-out that a player can move to their heart's content around the cockpit could suffice. But that's a clunky solution to a non-existing problem: we can always use F10 Mapview as an instant ersatz GPS that works perfectly. IMHO that's no more break from reality than a GPS add-on a la NS430 (which, truth be told, is an eyesore in all my models that have it, especially the Hip). 

[zerO_crash]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

While I'm not against this, I don't see how this would further realism - many cockpits (especially warbirds) have no provisions for mounting a GPS, some maps (Normandy, Channel come to mind) depict a time where GPS nav wasn't even conceived. GPS don't have to be fixed in a cockpit - I used to bring along a hand-held Garmin in my flight bag and simply put it on the dashboard; I think that a GPS screen/read-out that a player can move to their heart's content around the cockpit could suffice. But that's a clunky solution to a non-existing problem: we can always use F10 Mapview as an instant ersatz GPS that works perfectly. IMHO that's no more break from reality than a GPS add-on a la NS430 (which, truth be told, is an eyesore in all my models that have it, especially the Hip). 

It definately adds realism. Obviously, flying with a GPS, or any non-WWII aircraft on the Normandy and Channel maps, is an offense. The core idea here is "time". Though many of our aircraft don't have originally GPS', they are flown nowadays with hand-held ones. The implementation of NS430 is good, for an average GPS-unit that should fit most cockpits, however it doesn't fit everywhere, especially in the crowded ones (Mi-24P for example). Thus, having a mobile GPS, which can be placed anywhere in the cockpit, is indeed a nice thing, and realistic (there are many older aircraft being flown with mobile GPS-units as an addition to their doppler radars, radio-navigation, etc... This is especially true for VR.

 

"F-10" map is great, but it is not entirely realistic either. Having the scope, and detail that it has, being able to zoom in and out with the levels that the map allows... While not unrealistic today (tablets), using the map alone for pre-modern scenarios gives a level of detail far above what pilots had to deal with, back in the day. Flying with the kneeboard-map is indeed the most realistic you can do. The problem is however that you cannot chose what part of the map you wish to have with you on each flight individually.  I'm sure a new kneeboard is in the making along with a system to chose your own maps, however for modern scenarios, this bears no greater impact. GPS units, along with aforementioned doppler radars and radar navigation, plus good old dead reckoning is the way.

 

Again, depending on the time-aspect of the mission, it adds much realism. "F-10" map is too quick to use, vs having to click through a physical GPS-system. The 2D NS430 is neither appealing in VR, nor realistic in aircraft it cannot physically be mounted in (unless some other instrument is removed). I doubt however that I would put a GPS into a WWII-aircraft, considering how small their cockpits are, and the pure nature of flying WWII-aircraft (leisure =/= work).

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, bies said:

But why "every single cockpit"? I-16 Rata, Bf-109 or F-86 Sabre flying with GPS navigation as well? Why? Why even spending time and resources to make GPS for pre-GPS era modules?

"Every single cockpit" refers to the usability of such a device, as in, it's applicable in every cockpit. Which cockpit's get it, is another discussion. With that said, while WWII-aircraft are not an obvious choice (when simulating WWII), flying an airshow or performing a long-distance flight in a modern time-aspect, wouldn't exclude a GPS from a WWII cockpit either.

Edited March 14, 2023 by zerO_crash

[cfrag]

54 minutes ago, zerO_crash said:

"F-10" map is great, but it is not entirely realistic either.

Why? I've used an iPad with full Jeppesen and flight mapping in real-time. DCS's F10-View can't hold a candle against current aviation apps, they are far superior and have been available for GA for years now. F-10 is child's play against what I have in my cockpit today.

54 minutes ago, zerO_crash said:

"F-10" map is too quick to use, vs having to click through a physical GPS-system.

Wait... you intentionally want to make using GPS - something we use to make flying easier, safer and more comfortable - more cumbersome to use than necessary? Why? The main reason I switched from my Garmin Pilot (the device) to iPad was because I gain a great map display, color-coded, with my position superimposed up-to-the-second, and all weather and airspace information accessible on the touch of a finger (frequencies, airspace info, procedures, instant re-direct). And you request that ED develop a second-rate, more difficult-to-use GPS system that should intentionally make things more complex/error-prone for the sake of realism? There's something I'm missing, this does not compute for me.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by cfrag

[zerO_crash]

11 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Why? I've used an iPad with full Jeppesen and flight mapping in real-time. DCS's F10-View can't hold a candle against current aviation apps, they are far superior and have been available for GA for years now. F-10 is child's play against what I have in my cockpit today.

Wait... you intentionally want to make using GPS - something we use to make flying easier, safer and more comfortable - more cumbersome to use than necessary? Why? The main reason I switched from my Garmin Pilot to iPad was because I gain a great map display, color-coded, with my position superimposed up-to-the-second, and all weather and airspace information accessible on the touch of a finger (frequencies, airspace info, procedures, instant re-direct). And you request that ED develop a second-rate, more difficult-to-use GPS system that should intentionally make things more complex/error-prone for the sake of realism? There's something I'm missing, this does not compute for me.  

 

Literally what I wrote before:

"While not unrealistic today (tablets), using the map alone for pre-modern scenarios gives a level of detail far above what pilots had to deal with, back in the day. Flying with the kneeboard-map is indeed the most realistic you can do. The problem is however that you cannot chose what part of the map you wish to have with you on each flight individually.  I'm sure a new kneeboard is in the making along with a system to chose your own maps, however for modern scenarios, this bears no greater impact."

 

If we get a tablet (modern scenarios), it makes sense that the interface is easy to use. However, prior to the new millenium, flying with a tablet, was not the case. The best available equipment, was a cumbersome GPS. The request is for a GPS system, just as we have the NS430, however on that which will allow mounting in potentially any cockpit. That, such as to simulate a time scenario between physical pen and paper (map), and modern tablets.

 

I have made requests before for a tablet, and in a separate thread for better kneeboard with the option to chose your own maps. Again, this is for simulating tools used for navigation, that are proper for the time. The same is the case with the F-10. While being usable by any aircraft, regardless of the time stamp you put on the scenario, in some cases (WWII & early Cold War) becomes too informative, whereas in other (modern scenario), it too feature-less and imprecise. Count VR into this, the tools that you use within a module, should be exactly in it, not an external 2D screen. A system has to be built where you, at your own discretion (and mission settings), chose whether you have access to only a kneeboard, a GPS (mobile or physical in the module) or a tablet. The point is, the F-10 map, is more of a tool for a mission maker (I create many for myself and clan), than an actual instrument for using during flight. It becomes especially noticeable in VR, where it quite honestly detracts from being in the air.

[cfrag]

As I said, I have nothing against your idea. I merely object to the claim it would enhance realism. You request (which is entirely fine) some avionics of one arbitrary time period to be used in aircraft of another time period. Nothing against that. There is nothing, though, that makes fulfilling this request a more realistic experience for the average player in any way. It's a 'let's have an anachronism I happen to like in all cockpits' request. Perfectly fine wish list item. It's part of the justification ("more realistic") that I strongly object against.

[zerO_crash]

Well, semantics-wise, I never used the term "more realistic", rather "enhance realism", and again, at the discretion of the mission and period. I still stand by that, and while this is not merely a request asking for; "I found something cool, let's have at it.", it's more pointed at the realistic scenario of for example the war in Ukraine, Syria, and recent wars before that, where such solutions are/were used. While the aircraft are older, they still get used in modern conflicts. There are some aircraft, that cannot fit the size of the NS430 (eg. Mi-24P), which would benefit from such a GPS. This is not an item that would change anything physically about the modules, rather, as in real life, allow you to bring another piece of equipment with you for a mission (given the setting of the mission, that's to say period, allowed it). It enhances realism in a pre tablet-period, as F-10 map-like GPS's were not there. The interface was less than ideal, the functionality, etc... that was the common denominator of the period. 

 

For WWII, I already told you, it has very limited use (flying WWII in modern period), however it's primarily for Cold War+ modules that you can really use it in 2022. If there is a type of aircraft where the use would be somewhat limited, it's rather for high performance jets, where 9G+ could rip it off and have a brick (x9 its own weight) flying in the cockpit). Beyond that, I really see no issues, provided you use it with respect to mission period.

 

EDIT: Apparently, even high performance jets aren't a problem...

There are many examples out there.

Edited March 14, 2023 by zerO_crash

[upyr1]

I think it should be added to the GPS we have

[Mars Exulte]

The GPS module we have provides a pop up fully interactive unit, albeit not 3d, for each module. Making an actual 3d model is waaaaay more work, because it would need to be set up and tuned for the individual aircraft with altered 3d models, etc. It's not like the bobbleheads for some games where each plane is designed from the outset to allow for it in designated spots.