Mochizuki_Mk19 Posted March 22, 2023 Posted March 22, 2023 Started as a RAG nugget on the 15th March. Really great content. This should be THE campaign every virtual tomcat pilot goes through before running on other missions/campaigns, if you want to be as immersive and good as in the reality. Overall, the campaign gives me more feeling as some sort of "exams" more than "tutorials": you have to learn, then practice, be good, then you come back to the missions provided or the campaign and get scored, hope that you don't fail three times. You can choose to restart the mission again and again or fly instant missions, but either way I don't think any of these tasks are to be passed with "above average" without decent practice. ----------------------------------------- However, I personally find some white-boards not explicite enough, or even "wrong" in the sense that the DCS AI is not behaving as well as intended. I'll list a couple of missions with my thoughts and small tips, maybe also some confusions, and see if someone has a better way to pass the "exams". 2c - Breakup & Rendezvous: I think IRL you should be safe and have some ~330 kts while rejoining, but here time means grade, so drive ~350 (even a little bit higher) to catch up the bus. 2d - Cruise formation: While pitching hard, the AI hits the throttle without noticing you which is very hard to follow. Or am I just too bad? 2e - G-warm: The DCS AI is definitely not doing as briefed. If you turn 4G @400kts then you'll almost surely have a tighter turn than the AI and fall behind. Also the AI maintains 15,000 ft while the player performs 6G turn 15 degree nose down so you'll be out by ~1,000 ft lower. Then by the 20 degree nose up & neg-G check you will climb again so lastly you should end up 1 mile abeam, however I doubt if the AI is doing right. Also when combat spreading, I bank 45 degrees, maintaining altitude, wait until I am 30 degrees off route (no hard-turns!), start counting 8 or 10 sec while leveling, at 10 I again bank 45 degrees in the other direction, maintaining altitude, and wait until back en route. Should get the beep denoting you're 1 mile abeam at 10 degrees to go. Of course don't forget to adjust throttle for constant speed. 2f - Shackle: Relying only on your eyes to "guess" when you're 1 mile away is absolutely random... I got an Above Average though. 2h - Tac turns: This one is fishy. No indication on how hard I should be turning, so I have to guess my distance to lead and this is a total disaster. If you turn too hard, you will probably be too close & behind, makes the next turn even harder to calibrate. On experiences I think this should be done with a 3G-turn each time. 2j - Aerial refueling: Don't have the skill to pass yet, however AI intercepting the tanker is... confucious. The AI will accelarate & use brakes with no warning, makes it extremely difficult to follow in formation. Also if timed badly the AI will show off his skill refueling from a tanker with 30 degrees bank... and eventually "flashes" between different formation places. 5b - GBU & LANTIRN: For the whole mission 5 we have no indication on turn rates. How do I keep exactly 5 miles / 3 miles abeam? Have to figure it out by myselves, don't remember the exact number but I think some 60~70 degree bank with 4G for the tight one, for the loose LANTIRN pattern do the same but stop at 45 degrees to go and fly straight until 5+ miles away from TGT. I read from other posts that we should pull hard to climb 4,000 ft and so, but it is confusion af not to clearly point out where we should pull the pitch. After passing TGT? Or while turning? Or in that "level flight" phase? If you're not 15,000 ft when abeam then you definitely already loss points for the grade. 6b - Snapshot drill: In the 3rd circle we are supposed to pull to avoid being shot at. However there is not enough time between 3rd and 4th circle to return to the right altitude... 6c- Defensive perch: I'm not sure if I understood the briefing correctly, but seemly the only way not to "took too long killing the bandit" is to do some pilot <profanity> (and yes, by this I MEAN the cobra or the famous Maverick "I'm gonna hit the brake and let him overshoot" manuever) and force Paco to overshoot, or, at least go into scissors. Since the AI turns almost always in ideal turn rate you'll not gonna make it on time if going into a turn fight as briefed. 6g - Butterfly set: Now I get an Average because "took too long killing the bandit" after coming down directly from high, do some high yo-yo to keep offensive and splash the bandit with Fox-2 after about 1 minute. So... we are supposed to kill the bandit by the very first pass after coming back from the stratosphere if we want an Above Average? Fox-2 is not an option in this window since Paco will flare & turn which basically neutralize the sidewinder. Not to mention that you'll have difficulties reaching even 500 kts if fly as briefed, 550 kts at merge is absolutely non-sense, if as briefed. -------------------------------------- Phew, I have written down so much blah-blahs. I feel necessary to repeat that I definitely LOVE this campaign, great job Reflected, really provides a deep learning-curve for those who want to master the tomcat. But at the same time I do had a LOT of confusions during the tasks, some are probably not explained so detailed as other tasks (I would say the explanations in Mission 1 are really clear) or just restricted by DCS / DCS AI. I welcome you guys all to write down tips for the missions whenever you felt confused and then figured it out on your own. Asking for how exactly the triggers work, to slip pass the grading, is not intended by this post though. -------------------------------------- And in the very end I just want to post my grade sheet at the current moment Really satisfying to see new gradings & get better results day by day.
Reflected Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Mochizuki_Mk19 said: ----------------------------------------- However, I personally find some white-boards not explicite enough, or even "wrong" in the sense that the DCS AI is not behaving as well as intended. The Whiteboards were hand drawn by Paco, you wouldn't get anything more detailed or explicit in the real life ready room either. I'll list a couple of missions with my thoughts and small tips, maybe also some confusions, and see if someone has a better way to pass the "exams". 2c - Breakup & Rendezvous: I think IRL you should be safe and have some ~330 kts while rejoining, but here time means grade, so drive ~350 (even a little bit higher) to catch up the bus. - Paco said 330-350. Make sure you lead him a bit, cut inside the circle like he said. 2d - Cruise formation: While pitching hard, the AI hits the throttle without noticing you which is very hard to follow. Or am I just too bad? Hard coded DCS AI, it's always been like that, not campaign specific and nothing I can do about it. You'll get used to it (if only I had a dollar for every time I typed this down ) 2e - G-warm: The DCS AI is definitely not doing as briefed. If you turn 4G @400kts then you'll almost surely have a tighter turn than the AI and fall behind. Also the AI maintains 15,000 ft while the player performs 6G turn 15 degree nose down so you'll be out by ~1,000 ft lower. Why would you nose down? Didn't you accelerate when Paco called 'accel'? Then by the 20 degree nose up & neg-G check you will climb again so lastly you should end up 1 mile abeam, however I doubt if the AI is doing right. Also when combat spreading, I bank 45 degrees, maintaining altitude, wait until I am 30 degrees off route (no hard-turns!), start counting 8 or 10 sec while leveling, at 10 I again bank 45 degrees in the other direction, maintaining altitude, and wait until back en route. Should get the beep denoting you're 1 mile abeam at 10 degrees to go. Of course don't forget to adjust throttle for constant speed. There is no beep IRL, you'll get used to it and get better at estimating distance. I know it's hard in 2D. The AI is set to turn at constant, specific g-s. 2f - Shackle: Relying only on your eyes to "guess" when you're 1 mile away is absolutely random... I got an Above Average though. Yepp, mark 1 eyeballs 2h - Tac turns: This one is fishy. No indication on how hard I should be turning, so I have to guess my distance to lead and this is a total disaster. If you turn too hard, you will probably be too close & behind, makes the next turn even harder to calibrate. On experiences I think this should be done with a 3G-turn each time. Yes, that's exactly the challenge. 2j - Aerial refueling: Don't have the skill to pass yet, however AI intercepting the tanker is... confucious. The AI will accelarate & use brakes with no warning, makes it extremely difficult to follow in formation. Also if timed badly the AI will show off his skill refueling from a tanker with 30 degrees bank... and eventually "flashes" between different formation places. DCS AI 5b - GBU & LANTIRN: For the whole mission 5 we have no indication on turn rates. How do I keep exactly 5 miles / 3 miles abeam? Look at your HSI Have to figure it out by myselves, don't remember the exact number but I think some 60~70 degree bank with 4G for the tight one, for the loose LANTIRN pattern do the same but stop at 45 degrees to go and fly straight until 5+ miles away from TGT. I read from other posts that we should pull hard to climb 4,000 ft and so, but it is confusion af not to clearly point out where we should pull the pitch. after dropping your bombs, get back into the pattern. After passing TGT? Or while turning? Or in that "level flight" phase? If you're not 15,000 ft when abeam then you definitely already loss points for the grade. You got the stick and throttles, make it happen 6b - Snapshot drill: In the 3rd circle we are supposed to pull to avoid being shot at. However there is not enough time between 3rd and 4th circle to return to the right altitude...Yes you can, if you fly correct patterns, speeds and g-s, and maintain the original heading after each pass. 6c- Defensive perch: I'm not sure if I understood the briefing correctly, but seemly the only way not to "took too long killing the bandit" is to do some pilot <profanity> (and yes, by this I MEAN the cobra or the famous Maverick "I'm gonna hit the brake and let him overshoot" manuever) and force Paco to overshoot, or, at least go into scissors. Since the AI turns almost always in ideal turn rate you'll not gonna make it on time if going into a turn fight as briefed. I've done it, other people have done it. 6g - Butterfly set: Now I get an Average because "took too long killing the bandit" after coming down directly from high, do some high yo-yo to keep offensive and splash the bandit with Fox-2 after about 1 minute. So... we are supposed to kill the bandit by the very first pass after coming back from the stratosphere if we want an Above Average? Fox-2 is not an option in this window since Paco will flare & turn which basically neutralize the sidewinder. Not to mention that you'll have difficulties reaching even 500 kts if fly as briefed, 550 kts at merge is absolutely non-sense, if as briefed. I've done it, other people have done it. -------------------------------------- Hey, thanks for the detailed feedback, let me reflect on them above in the quote. To be honest a lot of it is the same as others have written: 1) The DCS AI. I'm always surprised that people fly DCS, know the AI, yet they only complain about it in relation to the campaign. It's completely out of my hand, DCS has been like this forever. If you have any improvement suggestions please post it to the general AI thread - but the new AI FM was promised to come 'soon', so that's gonna change things. We'll see. 2) Whenever people don't get an above average, it's always the same discussion about 'the AI is erratic, instructions were not clear, I did everything right, maybe the triggers didn't fire', etc... As I said in the below video, you're learning to be a fighter pilot not a lawyer I tested the missions a 100 times, and so have some other testers - if you follow the instructions, the missions will work and you'll get a good grade. If you don't get a good grade it means you could have done better. Simple as that. Sorry, I hope it doesn't come across as a rant or something, but since the release of S&A I've been spending a LOT of time 'negotiating' with players about why they didn't get the grade they wanted. I doubt that would happen in real life Anyhow, you're doing pretty well so far, anything above 3.0 is GOOD! If anything, the campaign is too easy, IRL students only got a few above averages, most of the grades were average. You should be happy with that grade. Edited March 23, 2023 by Reflected 2 Facebook Instagram YouTube Discord
Lt_Jaeger Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 The thing is, everyone knows how bad the AI is to perform well in tasks, that requires some "common sense." For example, in the group I fly in, I also, as in the campaign, don't need lead to announce a turn, but he starts easy to give me time to react and tightens up in the process. The AI just do 100% instantly with some added <profanity> (hitting AB or stuff). During the course of time one is able to adapt, but only so far. The problem now, induced by you, Reflected, is, everything is perfect, one is completely immersed (at least me in my VR world) and suddenly the instructor does crazy <profanity>. That gets me out of this "I'm there, I'm doing this" daydream, which make me cuss and yell at poor Paco, perfectly well knowing it is well in the limits of "the game". In case I did not make myself clear, it was a huge compliment to Reflected for putting me "in there" and some bit.hing about the AI. One just expect everything to be perfect, even so the technological base is not just there yet and thus be unhappy about being dragged out of the situation. It is the gaming the game part that I don't like, I already have enough to do to understand the instructions, comprehend them, and then, the hardest part, get the virtual plane where it is supposed to be. So, if I get bad grades, I know I screwed up. If I get bad grades and cuss, I know I screwed up, but wish that the base game would get better to keep me into my little world and not gaming the game, in addition to the already hard task at hand. Just my 2¢
Mochizuki_Mk19 Posted March 23, 2023 Author Posted March 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Reflected said: Hey, thanks for the detailed feedback, let me reflect on them above in the quote. To be honest a lot of it is the same as others have written: 1) The DCS AI. I'm always surprised that people fly DCS, know the AI, yet they only complain about it in relation to the campaign. It's completely out of my hand, DCS has been like this forever. If you have any improvement suggestions please post it to the general AI thread - but the new AI FM was promised to come 'soon', so that's gonna change things. We'll see. 2) Whenever people don't get an above average, it's always the same discussion about 'the AI is erratic, instructions were not clear, I did everything right, maybe the triggers didn't fire', etc... As I said in the below video, you're learning to be a fighter pilot not a lawyer I tested the missions a 100 times, and so have some other testers - if you follow the instructions, the missions will work and you'll get a good grade. If you don't get a good grade it means you could have done better. Simple as that. Sorry, I hope it doesn't come across as a rant or something, but since the release of S&A I've been spending a LOT of time 'negotiating' with players about why they didn't get the grade they wanted. I doubt that would happen in real life Anyhow, you're doing pretty well so far, anything above 3.0 is GOOD! If anything, the campaign is too easy, IRL students only got a few above averages, most of the grades were average. You should be happy with that grade. Hi Reflected, thanks for the reply! Can't repeat more how I love this campaign and benefit from these trainings. Regarding to your points, I realized that I probably "complained" too much in where I intended to write some tips - 1) AI. Okay fair, to be honest one should have not expected that an AI is as good as a real 3,500-hour pilot. Sometimes however I start to doubt myself once I need to be "off course from what briefed", but learning the briefing again will always help. 2) Instruction. Have to admit I'm still training to do everything right yet - also I agree that if everything is written down crystal clear then it's more like a babysitter tutorial, instead of training. The real combat changes a million times in one tick, so I guess as a pilot I have to think for myself sometimes. But in the end you should figure out how concretely you achieve the mission targets, so as I written down, "turn 3G in the tac turn", this one I figured it out myself, could be used as a reference for anyone interested. Of course the solution is free and everyone can do whatever he/she is comfortable with. Regarding the grade and difficulty - I would also say you "pass" one subject a little bit too easily. So that's why I look into the "Paco tips" and try to do better next time until they disappear. I guess I will aim for all green particularly in this campaign, and first then call myself a virtual tomcat pilot Again thank you for this wonderful campaign! I can fully imagine how many triggers you have to set up, how many waypoints you need to set for the AI etc.. Respect. 1 hour ago, Lt_Jaeger said: The thing is, everyone knows how bad the AI is to perform well in tasks, that requires some "common sense." For example, in the group I fly in, I also, as in the campaign, don't need lead to announce a turn, but he starts easy to give me time to react and tightens up in the process. The AI just do 100% instantly with some added <profanity> (hitting AB or stuff). During the course of time one is able to adapt, but only so far. The problem now, induced by you, Reflected, is, everything is perfect, one is completely immersed (at least me in my VR world) and suddenly the instructor does crazy <profanity>. That gets me out of this "I'm there, I'm doing this" daydream, which make me cuss and yell at poor Paco, perfectly well knowing it is well in the limits of "the game". In case I did not make myself clear, it was a huge compliment to Reflected for putting me "in there" and some bit.hing about the AI. One just expect everything to be perfect, even so the technological base is not just there yet and thus be unhappy about being dragged out of the situation. It is the gaming the game part that I don't like, I already have enough to do to understand the instructions, comprehend them, and then, the hardest part, get the virtual plane where it is supposed to be. So, if I get bad grades, I know I screwed up. If I get bad grades and cuss, I know I screwed up, but wish that the base game would get better to keep me into my little world and not gaming the game, in addition to the already hard task at hand. Just my 2¢ Yeah, fully agree with you. I guess this is the restriction that DCS as a simulation game has... Sometimes I just have to realize "oh the AI is again doing THAT", and do my own job without looking at him. Also I have difficulties exactly as the others looking at the triangle in parade formation since VR, not to mention that we never feel the acceleration with out butts. Ay. Really hope DCS can get better in some terms but for the rest I will consider them as the price I pay for being a "immortal pilot" who doesn't fear death.
Lt_Jaeger Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 For the Tac Turns, I did it as we do it in our group. Flying out either with 11 AOA or fly it to keep the speed as where it was starting the turn. Throttle to mil power. 2
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