China is upgrading J-20 with WS-15

[PLAAF]

The WS-15 is marked for mass production, and the airforce is upgrading the J-20 fleet with them.

The new engine is said to have a thrust of 18.5 tons, which is better than the F119's 17.7 tons thrust.

 

[Temetre]

Am 6.4.2023 um 02:21 schrieb PLAAF:

The WS-15 is marked for mass production, and the airforce is upgrading the J-20 fleet with them.

The new engine is said to have a thrust of 18.5 tons, which is better than the F119's 17.7 tons thrust.

Idk, I'd always be suspicious about extreme sounding numbers like that. Its not too long ago that China struggled to replicate Soviet engines, and now they already beat an F119 in a number of ways?

Lets wait and see till we get some basic evidence at least.

[PLAAF]

9 hours ago, Temetre said:

Idk, I'd always be suspicious about extreme sounding numbers like that. Its not too long ago that China struggled to replicate Soviet engines, and now they already beat an F119 in a number of ways?

Lets wait and see till we get some basic evidence at least.

I agree with you. This is just a youtube video; however creditable the creator may be, it is not an official announcement. But still, I doubt it would be too long.

A few years ago, I had the same hesitation as you. Man, but in the past few years, after witnessing all the breakthroughs my countrymen have achieved, I am no longer surprised by anything they say. Besides, China does have a tendency to achieve whatever the external powers are trying to boycott or block throughout history. Things like nuclear weapons, 4th gen fighters, 5th gen fighters, etc... are all developed after world powers set up a technology blockade on China. I guess that's because of our Confucianistic culture. We tend to treat those external blockages or threats as a source of energy that spurs on us for self-improvement. That's why last year when Biden said that they were going to set up a tech blockade of 7nm chip tech on China, all of us had a celebration instead of anger. 

You should know that Chinese technology wasn't that far behind them to begin with. I remember it was about 20 years ago I had an opportunity to chat with an engineer in an aircraft design bureau. He told me at that time, "Don't be self-abased. We currently can make something like F-22 that the US has. The difference between us and the US is not that they have those techs, and we don't. The only difference is the level of maturity of those technologies. They (the US) can mass produce F-22 at the cost of about $100 million per aircraft. In contrast, we have to handcraft them at the cost of probably more than $1 billion per plane, maybe more. This explains your point perfectly. Think about it. When China was replicating the Soviet engine, I assume that you referred to the engine of the Su-35. At the time, China tried to develop their own thrust-vectoring engine. But this new type of engine has moving parts at its nozzle, which kept getting melted. So China imported Su-35, trying to see what's Russia's solution to this problem. But the issue is, at the time, China was already ahead of everyone else in the Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST) technology. The material used could withstand the power of the sun for 101 seconds. It was better than anyone else in the world. The second place was Germany, I think. Why didn't we use the material in EAST on the WS-15 engine at the time? If we had done so, the problem would have been easily solved. But you should know that the material used in the EAST costs trillions. 

By the way, just as we speak, two days ago, on the 21:00, 12th of April, 2023, China further broke the record. Now our EAST can withstand nuclear fusion for 403 seconds, further enlarging the gap between China and the West. Our entire nation rejoiced. 

Here, have a read. This time, it's an official announcement.   

http://www.news.cn/tech/2023-04/13/c_1129517477.htm

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by PLAAF

[Temetre]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb PLAAF:

I agree with you. This is just a youtube video; however creditable the creator may be, it is not an official announcement. But still, I doubt it would be too long.

A few years ago, I had the same hesitation as you. Man, but in the past few years, after witnessing all the breakthroughs my countrymen have achieved, I am no longer surprised by anything they say. Besides, China does have a tendency to achieve whatever the external powers are trying to boycott or block throughout history. Things like nuclear weapons, 4th gen fighters, 5th gen fighters, etc... are all developed after world powers set up a technology blockade on China. I guess that's because of our Confucianistic culture. We tend to treat those external blockages or threats as a source of energy that spurs on us for self-improvement. That's why last year when Biden said that they were going to set up a tech blockade of 7nm chip tech on China, all of us had a celebration instead of anger. 

You should know that Chinese technology wasn't that far behind them to begin with. I remember it was about 20 years ago I had an opportunity to chat with an engineer in an aircraft design bureau. He told me at that time, "Don't be self-abased. We currently can make something like F-22 that the US has. The difference between us and the US is not that they have those techs, and we don't. The only difference is the level of maturity of those technologies. They (the US) can mass produce F-22 at the cost of about $100 million per aircraft. In contrast, we have to handcraft them at the cost of probably more than $1 billion per plane, maybe more. This explains your point perfectly. Think about it. When China was replicating the Soviet engine, I assume that you referred to the engine of the Su-35. At the time, China tried to develop their own thrust-vectoring engine. But this new type of engine has moving parts at its nozzle, which kept getting melted. So China imported Su-35, trying to see what's Russia's solution to this problem. But the issue is, at the time, China was already ahead of everyone else in the Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST) technology. The material used could withstand the power of the sun for 101 seconds. It was better than anyone else in the world. The second place was Germany, I think. Why didn't we use the material in EAST on the WS-15 engine at the time? If we had done so, the problem would have been easily solved. But you should know that the material used in the EAST costs trillions. 

By the way, just as we speak, two days ago, on the 21:00, 12th of April, 2023, China further broke the record. Now our EAST can withstand nuclear fusion for 403 seconds, further enlarging the gap between China and the West. Our entire nation rejoiced. 

Here, have a read. This time, it's an official announcement.   

http://www.news.cn/tech/2023-04/13/c_1129517477.htm

 

 

I think the F-22 was more like 300 million dollar, which is why they shut down the production of the aircraft. Too expensive for America^^

Even something like the Eurofighter is painfully expensive.

Idk tho, you talk like China has top of the world technology in literally every aspect, which just doesnt make any sense to me. That seems like wishful thinking. In reality, I think its more that we dont really know anything, because the chinese government is excessively secretive. And frankly, a lot of those extreme claims remind me of Russia, who also claimed to have those super advanced tech, and usually it turned out its like decades behind western tech, with the most shiny parts being derived from western consumer goods.

Even something like the J-20, literally nobody knows if that thing is any good. It could be a completely unusable pile of garbage, or it could be on par with modern western fighters. But  we dont know. And I kinda feel China wouldnt need to be so secretive if it actually was.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Temetre

[F-2]

Here is a research paper with afterburner thrust curves of the WS-10A if it might be useful to get a rough idea of other Chinese engines.

202302222139156325464.pdf

[PLAAF]

39 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Idk tho, you talk like China has top of the world technology in literally every aspect,

I have never said such a thing. What make you think that? As you have probably noticed, I only take things from credible sources.

And even in my previous reply to you, I have admitted the fact that China is currently behind the US in 7nm chip technology.

EAST is just one aspect of China that has been ahead of the West, but not the only aspect.

50 minutes ago, Temetre said:

And frankly, a lot of those extreme claims remind me of Russia, who also claimed to have those super advanced tech, and usually it turned out its like decades behind western tech, with the most shiny parts being derived from western consumer goods.

That's Russia. China is not Russia, and Russia is not China. 

51 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Even something like the J-20, literally nobody knows if that thing is any good. It could be a completely unusable pile of garbage, or it could be on par with modern western fighters. But  we dont know. And I kinda feel China wouldnt need to be so secretive if it actually was.

Do you know if F-22 is any good? So far, the only confirmed kill of F-22 ever made is a Chinese weather balloon.....sorry, I meant a "spy balloon", and that was such a fair fight need I remind you. 

52 minutes ago, F-2 said:

Here is a research paper with afterburner thrust curves of the WS-10A if it might be useful to get a rough idea of other Chinese engines.

202302222139156325464.pdf 410.41 kB · 0 downloads

Hi, F-2. I can't see anything in the file you uploaded. Every time when I open it, it shows me nothing but white backgound and a small window pop up telling me to download some "font" so it can display it. And after I press "download" button, nothing happened.  Do you have it in other format?

[Temetre]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb PLAAF:

I have never said such a thing. What make you think that? As you have probably noticed, I only take things from credible sources.

And even in my previous reply to you, I have admitted the fact that China is currently behind the US in 7nm chip technology.

EAST is just one aspect of China that has been ahead of the West, but not the only aspect.

Fair, you didnt say "in every way", but pretty close to that. You said it about materials, that the chinese engine tech is way beyond russia, that China could make stuff on the level of F-22, but it would just be much more expensive. 

And i didnt want to go into the Tokamak thing, but I think you might misunderstand what that was about. No material can withstand the "heat of the sun", thats why they use magnetic fields to contain the material. Nor does it imply any of the material is actually useful for aircraft. So to derive knowledge about chinese material technology from that is a bit questionable.

Even the idea that the only thing holding chinese engine technology back being materials seems liek a narrative thats not backed up by accessible facts. It might be true, but it certainly would unusually quick to catch this quickly. No matter how outdated, soviet had some advanced tech and a lot of experience.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb PLAAF:

That's Russia. China is not Russia, and Russia is not China. 

Of course not. Im just saying that Russia is a reminder that governments really love to lie. And there is some parallels between the russian and chinese governments, without trying to become political. They are both much more restrictive in freedom of speech and military secrecy. Thats the main reason we have F-16Cs and F-15Es in DCS, but not even Mig-29As and the only chinese J8 is the peace pearl.

You know, the "once bitten, twice shy" thing.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb PLAAF:

Do you know if F-22 is any good? So far, the only confirmed kill of F-22 ever made is a Chinese weather balloon.....sorry, I meant a "spy balloon", and that was such a fair fight need I remind you. 

The F-22 is the most secretive western plane, actually moreso than the F-35. We never saw a shot of the cockpit IIRC. And thats why im not making big claims about that aircraft, and why I would remind people of that, same way im saying it about the J-20.

But even then, weve seen the F-22 fly a lot more, including in combat scenarios. It was eg used in Syria, although more as a "network/sensor node" and limited precision ground attack role. Compare that eg to the russian Su-57, which is supposed to have flown in a lot of places, but we never see any evidence.

For the F-22 theres also a lot more pilots talking about it on podcasts, with limited from Red Flag exercises, etc. Thats way more than we got for many russian (and chinese) weapons. Like the SU-35 is likely outdated in many ways, relies on western tech, and offered for exports, but theres very little solid info on it despite that. And Chinese weapons like the J-20 are just a mistery box, nobody knows whats really going on inside that plane. Again, historically think of the Mig-25? Looked amazing to westerners, featured heavily in soviet propagnada, thats why US concluded the F-15 was incredibly important as a counter. And in the end, the Mig-25 was actually an extremely limited, fundamentally flawed plane cobbled together from other tech.

And heck, we dont even know too much about the avoinics of modernized 4th gen aircraft. For example, Russia put the most modern AA-systems they got in Syria. So why are Israeli F-16s just freely striking away on iranian targets in Syria? They mustve done some pretty interesting things with those aircraft.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Temetre

[F-2]

22 minutes ago, PLAAF said:

I have never said such a thing. What make you think that? As you have probably noticed, I only take things from credible sources.

And even in my previous reply to you, I have admitted the fact that China is currently behind the US in 7nm chip technology.

EAST is just one aspect of China that has been ahead of the West, but not the only aspect.

That's Russia. China is not Russia, and Russia is not China. 

Do you know if F-22 is any good? So far, the only confirmed kill of F-22 ever made is a Chinese weather balloon.....sorry, I meant a "spy balloon", and that was such a fair fight need I remind you. 

Hi, F-2. I can't see anything in the file you uploaded. Every time when I open it, it shows me nothing but white backgound and a small window pop up telling me to download some "font" so it can display it. And after I press "download" button, nothing happened.  Do you have it in other format?

I’ll try to find something later, it’s a peer reviewed paper so hopefully I’ll find another format.

[PLAAF]

43 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Well, you said it about materials, that the chinese engine tech is way beyond russia, that China could make stuff on the level of F-22, but it would just be much more expensive.

What's wrong with that?

43 minutes ago, Temetre said:

And i didnt want to go into the Tokamak thing, but I think you might misunderstand what that was about. No material can withstand the "heat of the sun",

I was trying to simplify things when I said that. I doubt you will be happy if I really go into the detail of the EAST technology. But at the same time, I doubt you did NOT know I was trying to simplify things. So what are you trying to do here? 

43 minutes ago, Temetre said:

So to derive knowledge about chinese material technology from that is a bit questionable.

This shows your mindset and motive.

You already made up your mind that China must be "inferior". Then there is no necessity to continue this conversation. It's not my business how people portrait China in their fantasies. I often have this fantasy that Tifa Lockhart is my girlfriend, but unfortunately, no one cares. Hahaha.

"Questionable"? lol so you imply that China "steal" them from West, right?

So can you explain to me why Chinese-made EAST is more than five times better than the ones made in the West? So China steal the knowledge from the west, and made something so much better than the west can make using the very same knowledge? This is getting pathetic. So let me get this straight. What you are trying to say is that Western people are five times stupider than Chinese people because, using the same knowledge, they can only produce something 20% of the Chinese standard. My gush, that's just rude.

43 minutes ago, Temetre said:

The F-22 is the most secretive western plane, actually moreso than the F-35. We never saw a shot of the cockpit IIRC. And thats why im not making big claims about that aircraft, and why I would remind people of that, same way im saying it about the J-20.

So what was the point to bring up this point to begin with again?  o_O?

43 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Of course not. Im just saying that Russia is a reminder that governments really love to lie. And there is some parallels between the russian and chinese governments, without trying to become political. They are both much more restrictive in freedom of speech and military secrecy.

I don't even want to reply to this. Since this is so laughable. Anyone who is ever bothered to leave the US and see the world would probably tell you how much the world is not like what they have been portrayed by the CNN or whatever. hahahahaha.

Not to mention that the link I showed to you was the official announcement. How is that "secretive"? lol

Edited April 14, 2023 by PLAAF

[BIGNEWY]

folks, stay away from politics or this thread will get shut down. 

thank you

[Temetre]

Yeah, I dont intend to continue this. Theres little point in talking to people that just assume motive where they dont understand the argument; especially not when its apparently degraded to prejudices about "racist westerners". 

[PLAAF]

1 minute ago, Temetre said:

Yeah, I dont intend to continue this. Theres little point in talking to people that just assume motive where they dont understand the argument; especially not when its apparently degraded to prejudices about "racist westerners". 

I didn't assume anything. You showed us your prejudices and intention with your self-contradictory comments. But still, good to know you don't intend to continue the pointless ranting.

[Temetre]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb PLAAF:

You showed us your prejudices

Jesus christ, how do you not get the irony of saying that.

But no, mod is right, it would be stupid, off topic and against the rules to delve into that.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Temetre

[PLAAF]

23 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Jesus christ, how do you not get the irony of saying that.

But no, mod is right, it would be stupid and against the rules to delve into that.

Yep, I did get the irony when you said that, and I am not the only one.

Who is the mod? When is he in the conversation? Wait, did you just add random things into this conversation to derail the attention from your weak arguments? Since when is this "mod" guy ever in our conversation? 

 

Edit: one of my Western friends just told me that the mod is short for "moderator". Sorry, that's the embarrassment on my side. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by PLAAF

[Exorcet]

19 hours ago, Temetre said:

Idk, I'd always be suspicious about extreme sounding numbers like that. Its not too long ago that China struggled to replicate Soviet engines, and now they already beat an F119 in a number of ways?

Lets wait and see till we get some basic evidence at least.

This doesn't mean the video is true, but the F119 has been around for a while now and Chinese technology has evolved rapidly. The F119 and F-22 are on the verge of being replaced at this point. They are modern, but no longer the very cutting edge, so I don't think surpassing that technology is out of the question.

[Temetre]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Exorcet:

This doesn't mean the video is true, but the F119 has been around for a while now and Chinese technology has evolved rapidly. The F119 and F-22 are on the verge of being replaced at this point. They are modern, but no longer the very cutting edge, so I don't think surpassing that technology is out of the question.

Even then, the F-119 seems to be more advanced than anything the soviets put out, including the russian upgrades on them? Idk if theres clear evidence that the chinese industry even has the RnD capability of developing fighter engines better than the soviets? The material science problem was mostly about struggles to replicate them.

That doesnt mean its not possible, but even that this very basic capability doesnt seem to be fully proven.

 

And the WS-15 claims are just ridiculous, not just compared to the F-119. If the numbers are true, then the WS-15 would have a substantially higher thrust to weight ration than even the F-135. If I see it correctly, then the WS-15s dry T/W would be close to the F-135s afterburner thrust, it would literally be the most powerful jet engine, in terms of T/W, to be ever developed?

Edited April 14, 2023 by Temetre

[Exorcet]

2 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Even then, the F-119 seems to be more advanced than anything the soviets put out, including the russian upgrades on them? Idk if theres clear evidence that the chinese industry even has the RnD capability of developing fighter engines better than the soviets? The material science problem was mostly about struggles to replicate them.

China has surpassed Russia/USSR technology overall, I think it's safe to assume at this point. At the very least, they are in a better position when it comes to being able to reliably manufacture advanced technology. They also seem to be pretty active when it comes to espionage, so they've likely filled in many tech gaps they have through cyber warfare.

2 minutes ago, Temetre said:

And the WS-15 claims are just ridiculous, not just compared to the F-119. If the numbers are true, then the WS-15 would have a substantially higher thrust to weight ration than even the F-135. If I see it correctly, then the WS-15s dry T/W would be close to the F-135s afterburner thrust, it would literally be the most powerful jet engine, in terms of T/W, to be ever developed?

Rather than the specific claims made, I was replying to the idea of a Chinese engine matching or bettering the F119. Maybe the numbers quoted are exaggerated or wrong, but I don't feel like building an engine in the same class is beyond China's capability.

[Temetre]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Exorcet:

China has surpassed Russia/USSR technology overall, I think it's safe to assume at this point. At the very least, they are in a better position when it comes to being able to reliably manufacture advanced technology. They also seem to be pretty active when it comes to espionage, so they've likely filled in many tech gaps they have through cyber warfare.

Im sure China has surpassed Russia in a lot of ways. Obviously they also had access to much more modern tech and computers than the Soviets, etc. 

And China probably has top tier abilities when it comes to reverse-engineering and understand foreign technology. But the ability to build a world class engine is still a different thing. RnD is way more involved and requires established structures, they dont come out of nowhere.

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Exorcet:

Rather than the specific claims made, I was replying to the idea of a Chinese engine matching or bettering the F119. Maybe the numbers quoted are exaggerated or wrong, but I don't feel like building an engine in the same class is beyond China's capability.

I actually ment to write F-135 from the start, because it would even surpass that engine by a margin^^

Edited April 14, 2023 by Temetre

[PLAAF]

20 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

They also seem to be pretty active when it comes to espionage, so they've likely filled in many tech gaps they have through cyber warfare.

lol, talking about prejudices.