GPU Upgrade time (RTX 4070)?

[Shibbyland]

Hi All,

Current system specs

i7 9700k, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD solely for DCS, RTX 2060 Super on an MSI z390 motherboard.

The RTX 2060 is really holding me back, it's become painfully obvious over Paris on Normandy 2. We all know how GPU prices are at the moment so I'm having to stretch a bit. 

My price range seems to leave me with one option, the MSI RTX 4070 gaming X trio at 12GB. Does anybody have an experience with this card and using DCS (I'm playing at 1080p, never use VR)?

Ideally, I would've gone for an RTX 3080ti but these aren't available anymore where I am and the only second hand ones available are being sold by people selling LOTS of GPUs. That suggests to me that no matter what they say, they're probably ex mining cards and so I'm steering clear.

I'm looking at roughly $1500 USD for an RTX 4080 which is just too much for me. Sucks that the 4070 is getting such bad reviews, it seems like the only way to upgrade from what I've got within my price point.

[Beirut]

The bad reviews for the 4070 seem to be based on price as opposed to performance. It's not that it's a bad card, it's that it costs too much. On the other hand they all cost too much. 

 

My specs are very similar to yours and I just ordered a 4070. It fit my I'm-going-to-pay-too-much-anyway budget and the card specs are all good enough so I can eat the **** sandwich of how much it costs and still enjoy the upgrade. I'm at 1440p and expecting about double the FPS I get now with my 2060 Super. And I like the low power usage of the card; just 200W as opposed to the 2060 Super which is about 175W I think. 

 

Also, it seems DCS prefers Nvidia and that kept me from AMD cards. Otherwise I would have gotten a 6750XT for much less(!) and been happy with that. But DCS is my only gaming concern and I want to run these lovely new maps with as much eye candy as possible. 

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Shibbyland said:

Ideally, I would've gone for an RTX 3080ti but these aren't available anymore where I am and the only second hand ones available are being sold by people selling LOTS of GPUs. That suggests to me that no matter what they say, they're probably ex mining cards and so I'm steering clear.

I'm looking at roughly $1500 USD for an RTX 4080 which is just too much for me. Sucks that the 4070 is getting such bad reviews, it seems like the only way to upgrade from what I've got within my price point.

Concern with miners and tricksters messing the used market might be valid but, for some months now, a second hand GPU (mint condition) for 2/3 to 1/2 of the brand new price is the way to go, IMO.

You have to remember that there are lots of people willing to pay for (or quit) their hobby, more so since the pandemic. Be it graphics-cards, other PC parts, VR headsets, flight controllers, cockpits, monitors, speakers, etc, etc, etc.
Selling their current equipments on the used market is what helps them cushion the investment when upgrading it (or if leaving the hobby). Money doesn't grow on trees.
That's how many of us have been getting graphics-cards (and etc) - from the used market, sold by like-minded simmers/gamers either upgrading or quitting.

I'll just leave this here, merely to present an alternative path, same one as myself and others already took:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dcat=27386&_udlo=400&Memory%20Size=24%20GB&_fsrp=1&_from=R40&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_PrefLoc=3&Brand=GIGABYTE|MSI|EVGA|ASUS|ZOTAC&_nkw=RTX 3090&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_sop=15&Chipset%2FGPU%20Model=NVIDIA%20GeForce%20RTX%203090&_udhi=800&rt=nc
(yes, used RTX 3090 24GB for DCS is friggin awesome and it's still worth it, IMO)

^^ Plenty at "Buy it now" also with "Or best offer" (always better if you can negotiate!).
If you decide to go that route, be patient and look for those from trusted sellers - always enquire the seller! (with any and all questions that might be of concern)
Then get the right one at a reasonable price. Good deals are always happening, that's for sure. 
Use Paypal for the payment (as extra security) and remember the "eBay Money Back Guarantee" in there - both these things are not gimmicks.

If you're not comfortable or too timid to risk it, well.....  the alternative is to pay for a brand new similarly priced GPU that is (matter of fact) an inferior product... 

Edited April 23, 2023 by LucShep

[Shibbyland]

I've just now realised an issue I never even thought of because I've never bought really high end cards. I'm using a cooler master elite 431 case. It's pretty old (circa 2011) and is about the only original thing my PC has from when I bought it (except the almost never used DVD drive).

Anyway max card size is pretty limiting. The one I have in there now is 268mm long and with the wiring pushed up against it, I reckon I'll struggle to fit anything much longer than that so that rules out the 3080, 4080 and all cards above them unless I spend a couple hundred local dollars on an upgrade. Long story short, unless I buy one of the 268mm length 4070s, I'm unable to upgrade.

For me, the cost would be about $2000 USD I think by the time I've got what I'm after. As Lucshep said, just getting priced out of the hobby.

[LucShep]

 

53 minutes ago, Shibbyland said:

I've just now realised an issue I never even thought of because I've never bought really high end cards. I'm using a cooler master elite 431 case. It's pretty old (circa 2011) and is about the only original thing my PC has from when I bought it (except the almost never used DVD drive).

Anyway max card size is pretty limiting. The one I have in there now is 268mm long and with the wiring pushed up against it, I reckon I'll struggle to fit anything much longer than that so that rules out the 3080, 4080 and all cards above them unless I spend a couple hundred local dollars on an upgrade. Long story short, unless I buy one of the 268mm length 4070s, I'm unable to upgrade.

CM Elite 431, that's an upgrade you can't escape. That PC case is outdated, space, layout and airflow wise.
Doesn't matter what GPU you get, old or new, mid or high end, you really need to upgrade that case ASAP.

For all that is sacred, please don't let that crappy old case be the limit factor of the GPU acquisition. 
Plenty modern quality PC Cases with good space, layout and airflow, at or below $100 USD.
For example, the Phanteks Eclipse G360A, the Fractal Design Meshify C and the NZXT H5 Flow.
 

Edited April 23, 2023 by LucShep

[Shibbyland]

Yea, I've put it off for a long time haha.

Doubly embarrassing, I don't really know to to transfer everything over to a new case as that's something I can probably safely buy second hand.

Is it just a matter of unscrewing everything and screwing it into a new case?

[LucShep]

12 minutes ago, Shibbyland said:

Yea, I've put it off for a long time haha.

Doubly embarrassing, I don't really know to to transfer everything over to a new case as that's something I can probably safely buy second hand.

Is it just a matter of unscrewing everything and screwing it into a new case?

Yeah, it's really a matter of transfer and realocation of same parts.  
Take an afternoon and do it slowly, take pictures along the way on parts, cables and connectors that might seem confusing.
Get a friend or two (and a few beers) to assist if possible. You learn a lot during the process.

Worst scenario, pick the case and go to a PC store that can 1) sell you the new case and 2) transfer all the stuff into it from the old one.

Dang, a CM Elite 431...  the very same components inside will feel much newer and faster on a new case! 

Edited April 23, 2023 by LucShep

[Shibbyland]

28 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Yeah, it's really a matter of transfer and realocation of same parts.  
Take an afternoon and do it slowly, take pictures along the way on parts, cables and connectors that might seem confusing.
Get a friend or two (and a few beers) to assist if possible. You learn a lot during the process.

Worst scenario, pick the case and go to a PC store that can 1) sell you the new case and 2) transfer all the stuff into it from the old one.

Dang, a CM Elite 431...  the very same components inside will feel much newer and faster on a new case! 

 

Haha yea well the case is the most boring part for me. It's tucked away in the corner and I never look at it. At least it came with 3 additional USBs, I use every single one available for all my sim stuff. The new sleek ones seem to lack USBs other than on the back.

Reckon I'll go with a new case and an RTX 4070 (or second hand if I dare risk it). At least that way I'm not shelling out for a new power supply too. I dread upgrade time. I alternate CPU and GPU/RAM every 2-3 years normally. However, I've left it way too long this time due to covid and the prices and now it's become a headache.

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, LucShep said:

If you're not comfortable or too timid to risk it, well.....  the alternative is to pay for a brand new similarly priced GPU that is (matter of fact) an inferior product... 

 

 

Welcome to my world.

 

I could not bring myself to buy used from Fleabay. I'd buy screwdrivers or a book, but not expensive electronics. I'd rather hork over the few hundred extra and have the guarantee of a brand new product from a seller I can nail down. When I was buying parts from Amazon for my present rig a few years back, one of the boxes arrived and I could tell someone had stuck their hand through the bottom of the box and fished around, and they stole a 1TB NVME drive that was amongst the parts in the box. Half an hour online with Amazon customer support and I had a full credit. So I ordered it again and two-days later I had another NVME drive at my door. I'm willing to pay a premium for that.

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

 

Welcome to my world.

 

I could not bring myself to buy used from Fleabay. I'd buy screwdrivers or a book, but not expensive electronics. I'd rather hork over the few hundred extra and have the guarantee of a brand new product from a seller I can nail down. When I was buying parts from Amazon for my present rig a few years back, one of the boxes arrived and I could tell someone had stuck their hand through the bottom of the box and fished around, and they stole a 1TB NVME drive that was amongst the parts in the box. Half an hour online with Amazon customer support and I had a full credit. So I ordered it again and two-days later I had another NVME drive at my door. I'm willing to pay a premium for that.

Over 25 years around PC components, I recall buying at least 16 GPUs for my own rigs. Of those, only 3 were bought new. The rest was bought used or refurbished (6 on Ebay, including the latest one, an EVGA RTX3090 FTW Ultra). Same thing for motherboards, processors and RAM. And my motorcycles as well, now that I think of it!
Never a problem, be it in the process or with the product (I've just noticed, a set of those used GPUs, CPUs, Motherboards and RAM are over 10 years old now and still in use). 
I've also sold GPUs and other PC components, mostly through local market (OLX).

In my experience, not too dissimilar to buying on Amazon (of which I'm also a happy customer). 
Just do your enquiries about the product and shipment with the seller through PM on Ebay (it stays registered) and do not buy on impulse - everything he/she says (or doesn't answer) can be used against him/her if things go wrong, and he/she knows it (AFAIK it's made clear in their EULA). 
Again, using Paypal for payment medium and resorting to its services, as well to Ebay's (to honor their "Money Back Guarantee") in case there are any issues, usually solves 99% of the problems - if the seller doesn't take responsability (which they usually do, knowing the headaches they'll have with the two entities). These exhist and function (by laws inclusively) and are not gimmicks.
It's not the open air markets selling snake oil.  

Edited April 23, 2023 by LucShep

[EightyDuce]

1 hour ago, Shibbyland said:

Haha yea well the case is the most boring part for me. It's tucked away in the corner and I never look at it. At least it came with 3 additional USBs, I use every single one available for all my sim stuff. The new sleek ones seem to lack USBs other than on the back.

Reckon I'll go with a new case and an RTX 4070 (or second hand if I dare risk it). At least that way I'm not shelling out for a new power supply too. I dread upgrade time. I alternate CPU and GPU/RAM every 2-3 years normally. However, I've left it way too long this time due to covid and the prices and now it's become a headache.

It may not be as exciting as a graphics card or a CPU, but it's something that can hold that shiny hardware back if the airflow is terrible. 

There's also the layout, cable management and ease of maintenance (removable filters, especially if you just tuck the case away where it's sucking in dust). To be honest, it's hard to "visualize" the price difference, until you build in a good case then build in a bad case....then it jumps out at you. As for USB ports, nearly every modern case has a front USB breakout panel, some have traditional USBA, some USBC some combination of both. Biggest limiting factor for IO will be your motherboard. 

For just north of $100: Nzxt H7, Corsair 4000D, Fractal Pop, Kian Li 216.

Under $100: Montech X3 Mesh...honestly, just spend more and get a good case, you thank yourself later. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by EightyDuce

[Shibbyland]

Thanks for all the answers chaps. Going to buy a Phanteks Eclipse G360A, like the look of it. I'm hoping I'll get another year or so out of the z390 board before I change it again for yet another processor. I might get an i9 next time tho. 

So I'm looking at about $1000 USD (give or take as I'm not in US currency where I am) for parts then whatever it costs to have everything moved to the new case. Everything is that much more expensive where I live. Even RAM is expensive.

[Beirut]

56 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Over 25 years around PC components, I recall buying at least 16 GPUs for my own rigs. Of those, only 3 were bought new. The rest was bought used or refurbished (6 on Ebay, including the latest one, an EVGA RTX3090 FTW Ultra). Same thing for motherboards, processors and RAM. And my motorcycles as well, now that I think of it!
Never a problem, be it in the process or with the product (I've just noticed, a set of those used GPUs, CPUs, Motherboards and RAM are over 10 years old now and still in use). 
I've also sold GPUs and other PC components, mostly through local market (OLX).

In my experience, not too dissimilar to buying on Amazon (of which I'm also a happy customer). 
Just do your enquiries about the product and shipment with the seller through PM on Ebay (it stays registered) and do not buy on impulse - everything he/she says (or doesn't answer) can be used against him/her if things go wrong, and he/she knows it (AFAIK it's made clear in their EULA). 
Again, using Paypal for payment medium and resorting to its services, as well to Ebay's (to honor their "Money Back Guarantee") in case there are any issues, usually solves 99% of the problems - if the seller doesn't take responsability (which they usually do, knowing the headaches they'll have with the two entities). These exhist and function (by laws inclusively) and are not gimmicks.
It's not the open air markets selling snake oil.  

 

 

Two things: you're probably right... and I still wouldn't buy there. 

 

I'm old enough to be set in my ways. I like new stuff from a seller I can yell at. I would buy used from a computer store if I know the owner, otherwise I want it new. Especially with something like a video card which is such an expensive gadget and perhaps the most important part of a gaming rig.

 

I'm sure I could have saved money by buying used, but I'm willing to chew on it and pay the extra to get my 4070 brand new in the box with a quick delivery time and a seller I know will be responsible if there is a problem. 

[LucShep]

6 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

Two things: you're probably right... and I still wouldn't buy there. 

I'm old enough to be set in my ways. I like new stuff from a seller I can yell at. I would buy used from a computer store if I know the owner, otherwise I want it new. Especially with something like a video card which is such an expensive gadget and perhaps the most important part of a gaming rig.

I'm sure I could have saved money by buying used, but I'm willing to chew on it and pay the extra to get my 4070 brand new in the box with a quick delivery time and a seller I know will be responsible if there is a problem. 

Okay man, you do you. 

[Shibbyland]

Well, for anybody interested I went ahead and bought a Phanteks G360A. I've never "built" a PC myself before but decided to try save $80 and give it a go. Convinced myself if I could save that money then I could justify buying the FW190-A8 on sale.

6 hours and a bit of frustration later, I appear to have it up and running. It wasn't without the odd comical moment.

For example, I took a heap of photos so I knew where all the cables went back together. That didn't really help me a whole lot as the cables that came with the case were a bit different to my 11 year old case (I can't get the RGB working as the header on my motherboard is 4 pins long while the cable is 3 pin albeit is the same size so I'd have to crush two pins to get it on.

Turns out cable management isn't my thing. I've gone with the jam it all in with the case and close it like an overpacked suitcase approach. 

Went to turn it on. Push button....nothing, dead, total darkness. Had the wee power switch cable on wrong. So now I turn it on. Hard drive is missing. Windows has created a page file (32GB). Switch some sata cables around. Cool now I have my HDD back but the page file advisory won't go away on startup. Set page file to automatic. Still won't go away then a few restarts later it suddenly decides it's happy again.

I'm somewhat disconcerted tho as with everything back together and seeming to work alright, I've still got a couple of SATA cables left over (a red one and black one). My old case was like spaghetti so my pictures really don't show me where they went. I'm hoping they were just sitting in my old case not plugged into anything.

Anyway, cheers for the advice. I have enough space in this tower now (at least on the side you can see into) that I could rent it out to family of 3 to live in and I have 5 fans and much cooler running.

[EightyDuce]

26 minutes ago, Shibbyland said:

 

For example, I took a heap of photos so I knew where all the cables went back together. That didn't really help me a whole lot as the cables that came with the case were a bit different to my 11 year old case (I can't get the RGB working as the header on my motherboard is 4 pins long while the cable is 3 pin albeit is the same size so I'd have to crush two pins to get it on.

 

Just FYI, unless something has changed since I played with RGB few years back,  3 pin is ARGB and is 5V, with 5V Signal and ground pins. 4 pin = RGB and is 12v with reg blue and green signal, plugging 5V into 12V is obviously no bueno.

Long story short they are likely incompatible no matter how many pins you bend, you would need another solution, like new RGB.

[Shibbyland]

39 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

Just FYI, unless something has changed since I played with RGB few years back,  3 pin is ARGB and is 5V, with 5V Signal and ground pins. 4 pin = RGB and is 12v with reg blue and green signal, plugging 5V into 12V is obviously no bueno.

Long story short they are likely incompatible no matter how many pins you bend, you would need another solution, like new RGB.

Haha yea I wasn't seriously going to suggest I bend pins to make it fit. Maybe my motherboard doesnt support all those fancy colours my new fans have? It's an MSI z390 plus (model MS-7C22). I've lost the manual.

I think I'm going to need to take the machine in to get somebody to look it over tho as I've done something wrong. My rear headphone jack won't work which is odd as it worked fine before. My front headphone jack on the new case does work (which is odd as it DIDNT work on the old case). That tolerable but what's really irritating me is I plugged the USB 3.0 cable into a lot that looked the right size and said USB (even tho my motherboard isnt capable of USB 3.0). It's working as I can use the front USBs on the case but one of them keeps disconnecting. So if I've got my wifi adapter plugged in, it works for a while then suddenly stops but how long it works for varies. II've tried swapping out my wifi adapter for my rudder pedals and same issue, the rudder pedals work for awhile but then stop until I unplug and plug them back in so it's an issue with the USB on the case rather than the thing I'm plugging in.

On my old case the USBs were plugged in at the bottom of the motherboard using a couple of 4 pins but the new case doesn't have those USB cables available so I've had to use the USB 3.0 cable it came with. 

I'm so confused. Surely if I'd just outright done it wrong, they wouldn't work at all rather than working sometimes but not others. Any ideas?

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Shibbyland said:

Haha yea I wasn't seriously going to suggest I bend pins to make it fit. Maybe my motherboard doesnt support all those fancy colours my new fans have? It's an MSI z390 plus (model MS-7C22). I've lost the manual.

I think I'm going to need to take the machine in to get somebody to look it over tho as I've done something wrong. My rear headphone jack won't work which is odd as it worked fine before. My front headphone jack on the new case does work (which is odd as it DIDNT work on the old case). That tolerable but what's really irritating me is I plugged the USB 3.0 cable into a lot that looked the right size and said USB (even tho my motherboard isnt capable of USB 3.0). It's working as I can use the front USBs on the case but one of them keeps disconnecting. So if I've got my wifi adapter plugged in, it works for a while then suddenly stops but how long it works for varies. II've tried swapping out my wifi adapter for my rudder pedals and same issue, the rudder pedals work for awhile but then stop until I unplug and plug them back in so it's an issue with the USB on the case rather than the thing I'm plugging in.

On my old case the USBs were plugged in at the bottom of the motherboard using a couple of 4 pins but the new case doesn't have those USB cables available so I've had to use the USB 3.0 cable it came with. 

I'm so confused. Surely if I'd just outright done it wrong, they wouldn't work at all rather than working sometimes but not others. Any ideas?

 

The two times I built my rig I watched "building a PC for dummies" video on my tablet while putting it together. And I found possibly the greatest video in the history of mankind showing how to put those 8 tiny little pins into the motherboard correctly.

 

Hope you get the problem sorted out soon.  

 

The greatest video ever! 

 

 

[Shibbyland]

Definitely should've watched that video before doing the work. I ended up watching some Australian guy talking about how to do it but lots of stuff didn't quite match up.

Hey one more question tho. When I seated the motherboard on the standoffs, a couple of corners just didn't quite sit flat on the standoffs. Most of the motherboard was flush but there was maybe 3mm clearance on a coupe of the holes to the standoffs. I ended up just screwing it down letting it flex slightly. I moved the motherboard around a lot and at one point there was quite a bit of a gap in places but managed to reduce it to that 3mm or so, that was the absolute best I could do. Is that acceptable?

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, Shibbyland said:

Definitely should've watched that video before doing the work. I ended up watching some Australian guy talking about how to do it but lots of stuff didn't quite match up.

Hey one more question tho. When I seated the motherboard on the standoffs, a couple of corners just didn't quite sit flat on the standoffs. Most of the motherboard was flush but there was maybe 3mm clearance on a coupe of the holes to the standoffs. I ended up just screwing it down letting it flex slightly. I moved the motherboard around a lot and at one point there was quite a bit of a gap in places but managed to reduce it to that 3mm or so, that was the absolute best I could do. Is that acceptable?

That could be the problem, yes.

Make sure to use the standoffs (and the screws) provided with the case. Put those where the holes of your the motherboard align, remove those that do not align (if there's any) because those would touch electronic components (and where there's electricity current going!).
Some PC cases come with a standoff adapter (a small plug) to screw/unscrew those standoffs - the ones to be used should be placed (tighten) firmly. If you got no standoff adapter, then use some pliers.
Other standoffs and screws from other cases may work, but those provided are the ones tested and guaranteed to work with that case, so that there's no motherboard warping, and nothing made of metal touching any sensitive part of the motherboard.

When placing the motherboard on the standoffs, all corners and areas where there are standoffs, everything must sit flat.
Only then the screws are placed, one by one, and tight very gently - when the screwdriver stops, it's done. Never, ever, tight them hard (i.e, do not overtight them), it's not designed for that.

Wrong position on standoffs, board warping, as well as overtighten screws on the motherboard, can provoke issues such as small shortages (unexpected shutdowns, unable to boot/reboot, issues on the I/O causing peripherals to not work correctly or at all, etc), and even damage the layers of the motherboard due to excessive pressure on them (the "board" PCB itself, where all the circuits are, is made of layers of material).

 

Here's one among many other videos on YT about this "motherboard into case" subject -  relevant part starts from second 54:
 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by LucShep

[Shibbyland]

8 hours ago, LucShep said:

That could be the problem, yes.

Make sure to use the standoffs (and the screws) provided with the case. Put those where the holes of your the motherboard align, remove those that do not align (if there's any) because those would touch electronic components (and where there's electricity current going!).
Some PC cases come with a standoff adapter (a small plug) to screw/unscrew those standoffs - the ones to be used should be placed (tighten) firmly. If you got no standoff adapter, then use some pliers.
Other standoffs and screws from other cases may work, but those provided are the ones tested and guaranteed to work with that case, so that there's no motherboard warping, and nothing made of metal touching any sensitive part of the motherboard.

When placing the motherboard on the standoffs, all corners and areas where there are standoffs, everything must sit flat.
Only then the screws are placed, one by one, and tight very gently - when the screwdriver stops, it's done. Never, ever, tight them hard (i.e, do not overtight them), it's not designed for that.

Wrong position on standoffs, board warping, as well as overtighten screws on the motherboard, can provoke issues such as small shortages (unexpected shutdowns, unable to boot/reboot, issues on the I/O causing peripherals to not work correctly or at all, etc), and even damage the layers of the motherboard due to excessive pressure on them (the "board" PCB itself, where all the circuits are, is made of layers of material).

 

Here's one among many other videos on YT about this "motherboard into case" subject -  relevant part starts from second 54:
 

 

 

Thanks for the video Lucshep, I did have a look at that one. My standoffs are all in the correct place, lined up with the correct screw holes. I've used the screws and standoffs that came with the case. I don't think I've done them up too tight, just until they stop plus a small amount. I'm less concerned about the position and more concerned that I couldn't get it to fit perfectly flat no matter what I did. 

I did a lot of repositioning and certainly improved it but at no point was it totally flat, there was a small amount of flex required for the motherboard to seat on about 3 of  the 9 standoffs, mostly toward the bottom of the case but one at the mid point.

The board is definitely compatible with the case, I've double checked that. It's in good condition, it doesn't have any particularly heavy parts on it (just a small CPU cooler).

I'm reluctant to take it all apart again lest I make it worse. I'm continuing to use it while I wait to get it to a shop. So far so good other than the odd USB behavior I've noted above. Since my original post, the rear sound input has started working with absolutely no alterations from me, yesterday it wasn't working, today it is.