About to give up on the Pico 4

[SebastianR]

Well, this is not the time to suffer with configurations. If the G1 works better, you should get a G2

[Dave317]

That's exactly what I'll be looking at.  

[Qcumber]

18 hours ago, Dave317 said:

Sorry pico you've got to go back. 

Sorry to hear you are having such a tough time with the Pico 4. The really frustrating thing about PCVR is that is so hit and miss and needs a lot of work to get the best out of any headset, even ones with dedicated DP connection. I hope it works out with the G2. 

[Lange_666]

I'm on the edge of returning mine too. I'm not impressed.
After playing around with it a lot, tried about every setting, my biggest gripe is the ghosting with ASW on on objects starting from medium to far distance when the airplane is rolled.
Pointing a wingtip to the ground and then pull the stick makes the image go by quickly and then there is no (or almost no) ghosting problem.
But simply flying straight, looking out of the cockpit at an object in the medium to far distance, let it be a tree, building or a target and just pull up or roll the aircraft and all the objects just ghost and shimmer until the roll stops. I have this in DCS, MSFS and in IL-2. It's just annoying. It's there in OpenVR or OpenXR.
The effect vanishes when ASW mode is disabled but then even a 72Hz refresh rate is impossible to keep up, even on my system.
ASW mode is simply not good enough on the Pico 4 compared to a Rift-S which i had before.

 

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, Lange_666 said:

ASW mode is simply not good enough on the Pico 4 compared to a Rift-S which i had before.

I did a direct comparison with my setup with the same game settings using rift s and Pico 4. I saw the same ghosting effect with moving objects with both when using ASW/SSW. Overall, the ghosting for me is not too bad and I can live with it. The Pico 4 quality is similar to the rift s but with less screen door and a much wider field of view. It works well for me and I don't plan on going back to the rift s. For the price I am very impressed. 

[Lange_666]

With ASW enabled, there is always ghosting on fast moving objects. The faster it moves, the more the ghost image lags behind the non ghost image.
This is so for both the Rift-S and Pico.

The effect i talk about is different. It are only object at medium to far distance that are ghosting extremely when the airplane is rolled. Once the roll stops, the ghosting stops. It's even visible when in a very slow roll.
Another thing i'm having problems with is that sometimes certain textures (like different textures on 2 different parts of the terrain) start to shake. It happens on one texture but not on the second making some (small) parts of the terrain look like it's becoming liquid for a while. Moments later it's gone again. These could be compression artifacts, i don't know but it's annoying. Can't remember seeing any of these things in my Rift-S.     

[Qcumber]

OK. I see what you mean. I sometimes see this too. Is it when you role and look at 90 degrees from you line of flight? There is a stretched double image which is different to ghosting. I sometimes see it at a distance with one plane appearing as two dots. It's not all the time though. I forgot to look out for this when I retested my rift s. I'll have another look. There is another thread on this forum where this is discussed and it appears to affect other headsets too. 

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/324260-vr-stuttering-only-when-rolling-especially-when-looking-to-the-side-and-fixing-a-point-on-the-horizon/?do=getNewComment

Edited May 24, 2023 by Qcumber

[Lange_666]

Yep that's what i mean. Looking directly in front i don't see it.
I forgot to mention it's not always visible like when i start a flight, the first 30-60secs it isn't there, then it starts.
It can get worse or even almost disappear some time later. In extreme cases the far away objects can all of sudden shift even a cm to re-align again. It's not a DCS problem because in IL-2 and MSFS i see it also. I can't remember i had that in the Rift-S and if it would, i'm surely would have noticed.

I guess it's more a stand alone headset issue...

Edited May 24, 2023 by Lange_666

[Qcumber]

The thread link I posted would suggest this might a new thing with MT and affects other headsets too. Have you tried running ST? I will aim to try both Pico and rift s in MT and ST tomorrow and see what happens. 

[Lange_666]

I have this both on ST and MT and in other sims too, therefore it's not a DCS issue.
I'm looking forward to the Rift-S test.

[Qcumber]

I don't see this in IL-2. Only DCS and only in very specific circumstances when I role the plane and am looking at a 90 degree angle. 

[Lange_666]

Could be a setting then, or a combo. But i don't know what because i tried everything i know of. Went through quite some different settings again yesterday before i wrote the post.
I see it with different runtimes so that ain't it. 

[Qcumber]

Could this be an issue with Virtual Desktop? Do you see it with Streaming Assistant? It might be worth asking for support on the VD discord. It is their official support area. 

[Lange_666]

I ran SA as test yesterday but the ASW setting in there doesn't do anything + i have more performance loss with SA the with VD. With SA i can't even reach 72 FPS (when the headset is set to 72Hz refresh) on my testruns turning the experience into a stuttery mess. Never been able to make any sim run stutter free in VR if not running on either native refresh or with ASW forced to always on. Putting ASW on only when FSP dropped below the native refresh of the headset always resulted in stutter, let it be the Rift-S or the Pico 4.
I also see it when looking at a 30° or 45° angle but less pronounced. What bugs me is that on close by objects it doesn't happen even when looking at 90° and flying low over the terrain so when rolling, the terrain/objects move quickly, even faster then the distance objects move but on the distance objects the effect is visible + it happens only when rolling or pulling (or pushing) the stick, not on a straight flight. The moment the roll stops, the effect is gone. It's just weird but a big show stopper.

I just ran another test at 72 Hz with ASW disabled and the settings turned down a bit to be sure to keep the 72FPS all the time. Then there is no such distant ghosting when rolling the airplane. So it's def an ASW thing.

Need to decide what to do with it, i only have until Thursday to return it and from this afternoon until Tuesday i'm not at home.

[Qcumber]

I am just testing now and I am getting some weird effects.

With the pico 4 I get a base fps of about 50-60; I see the stutter/ghosting issue in both ST and MT and with SSW on or off, although it is more pronounced with SSW on. However, the effect is not all the time and I can't work out why.

With the rift s I get a base fps of about 60-75 and a lot of stuttering; this is very apparent in the fps/latency overlay. When I use Oculus tray tool to set ASW to auto, or lock the fps to 40, it is much smoother and less ghosting/blurring when rolling. Overall, the rift s appears to be a smoother experience. I suspect this is because I am using a higher resolution and my system is struggling with it.  

In Il-2 the pico 4 runs fine with no ghosting. I get 60-72 fps routinely and a really smooth experience. Very similar to the rift s but with the bonus of very little screen door and better FOV. 

DCS are promising changes which will improve the VR experience, but until this happens I think I will use my rift s for DCS and the Pico for IL-2. I will keep retrying and saving for a better GPU. 

 

[Thinder]

On 5/6/2023 at 12:18 PM, Dave317 said:

I got my Pico 4 about a week ago and I can't get the thing to look good.

I used to get decent frames on my G1 but with the Pico I'm getting about 20 FPS with 180-200 ms of latency!  No matter whether I use USB via the streaming app or wifi it's a mess.  The resolution is terrible too with everything blurry which doesn't change if I cange the resolution settings. 

Any ideas where I am going wrong before it gets retuned?

The Pico4 demands a lot of firepower from the GPU, but it also will always work better with a proper RAM-to-CPU bounding and it looks like your specs are more to blame than the headset itself.

Of course it puts more load on a PC than a G2 but oce you get your rig set up, visuals are great, I wouldn't swap it for a G2, having said that, My G2 was working just fine with a 5600X and a 1080Ti, the Pico wouldn't, you need a stronger GPU and best RAM possible..

[Lange_666]

The same effect is noticeable on the ingame FPS or message window. If you roll the plane with the FPS indicator visible, it will very slightly ghost and the window + text will become a bit blurry. The moment you stop the roll, it's gone (with SSW on).

Edited May 25, 2023 by Lange_666

[Dave317]

7 hours ago, Thinder said:

The Pico4 demands a lot of firepower from the GPU, but it also will always work better with a proper RAM-to-CPU bounding and it looks like your specs are more to blame than the headset itself.

Of course it puts more load on a PC than a G2 but oce you get your rig set up, visuals are great, I wouldn't swap it for a G2, having said that, My G2 was working just fine with a 5600X and a 1080Ti, the Pico wouldn't, you need a stronger GPU and best RAM possible..

I expect you are right however I'm not in a position to upgrade my gpu yet again given I'll have to spend £1500 for a 4090 to run it properly.  Maybe I'll revisit it again when I next upgrade.   Its a real shame as there are a lot of decent features with the pico.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Dave317

[Thinder]

48 minutes ago, Dave317 said:

I expect you are right however I'm not in a position to upgrade my gpu yet again given I'll have to spend £1500 for a 4090 to run it properly.  Maybe I'll revisit it again when I next upgrade.   Its a real shame as there are a lot of decent features with the pico.

 

Well, I'm sure you'd run it very well with an RX 7900 XT, those GPUs have a lot more potential than what is said of them.

But it looks like you're looking at playing DCS in VR, a game which is notoriously demanding on specs but don't have the budget or the will to spend it, and it's not all about GPU, I wouldn't swap mine for a 4090 and it was about £450 cheaper than the cheapest of them when I purchased it.

My EVGA 1080Ti was a very good GPU, one of the best I used so far if not the best but it was even better with a kit of Cl14 RAM and a 5600X CPU, it's all a question of balance.

 

[Dave317]

I'm not looking at playing dcs in vr,I have been using vr for years with a reverb g1. 

I may not currently have the spec to run it in full settings but in my opinion the reverb looks far better with my current pc.  

[Thinder]

5 minutes ago, Dave317 said:

I'm not looking at playing dcs in vr,I have been using vr for years with a reverb g1. 

I may not currently have the spec to run it in full settings but in my opinion the reverb looks far better with my current pc.  

Yeah, I had one G2, it packed up and even if in the sweetspot it was marginally sharper than the Pico, overall, the Pico is a better headset, I don't need to target what I want to see to see it, in the cockpit it makes a lot of difference.

On top of which I can watch movies, download them or play games, go online without even having to link it to my PC, bang for the money it beats the G2 hands down, once set up, the only drawback is a somewhat limited battery autonomy, but I don't really care since every time I take a break I recharge it.

When it came out its library was limited, its apps too, but now it has got a lot better, from my PoV it will replace the G2 without problem, especially because it is out of production and will run out of support before I feel the need for a new headset.

The thing is with a higher specs PC, you can play DCS with settings you don't get anywhere close to with a low or mid range, in terms of visual quality, it's obvious it is an advantage and I'm not playing only DCS but also Elite Dangerous, and graphics are stunning in both games, only DCS is a lot more demanding at higher settings and harder to set up properly.

I say that but you wouldn't believe what I had to go through only to get a 5600X/1080Ti system running, I know what it is to be skinned, that's why I haven't been seriously looking at the 4090s, with the difference of money I was able to purchase a good Cl14 kit and with this CPU it makes a lot of difference, plus my system is foolproof for a few years from now.

So consider this, you can buy second hand like I did the 1080Ti, half the price of a new one, two years warranty (CEX) and I sold it back to them too, because even after another two years of service with me, it still passed their tests, you can pretty much put a high end PC together for 2/3rd or even half the price of new if you can find the warranted gear.

The 4090s are a hell of a GPU serie but you don't need one.

[Temetre]

Am 24.5.2023 um 14:47 schrieb Lange_666:

I'm on the edge of returning mine too. I'm not impressed.
After playing around with it a lot, tried about every setting, my biggest gripe is the ghosting with ASW on on objects starting from medium to far distance when the airplane is rolled.
Pointing a wingtip to the ground and then pull the stick makes the image go by quickly and then there is no (or almost no) ghosting problem.
But simply flying straight, looking out of the cockpit at an object in the medium to far distance, let it be a tree, building or a target and just pull up or roll the aircraft and all the objects just ghost and shimmer until the roll stops. I have this in DCS, MSFS and in IL-2. It's just annoying. It's there in OpenVR or OpenXR.
The effect vanishes when ASW mode is disabled but then even a 72Hz refresh rate is impossible to keep up, even on my system.
ASW mode is simply not good enough on the Pico 4 compared to a Rift-S which i had before.

Have you checked your frametimes? Open the perofrmance-monitor in DCS to check. When I get ghosting, its almost always coinciding with bad frametimes.

Mind that Pico4 is rendering at a higher resolution than a Rift+S.

[Lange_666]

It ain't bad framerates. These are pretty constant. Besides, it's mostly visible at a +30° view from the frontview when the aircraft gets rolled (or to lesser extend when it's pulled up). The bigger the angle (with max at 90), the servere the ghosting is (or can be). 

[Thinder]

11 hours ago, Temetre said:

Have you checked your frametimes? Open the perofrmance-monitor in DCS to check. When I get ghosting, its almost always coinciding with bad frametimes.

Mind that Pico4 is rendering at a higher resolution than a Rift+S.

There is something else there which causes this to occur, a setting (can't remember which) and it changes the resolution where you look or in the center of the screen, solution, turn it off.

As for performances, here you go.

What you need is to optimize your systems, including RAM-to-CPU bounding because DCS is so demanding, with Pico's high requirements on top, you end up with mediocre VR performances, reason why I don't rely on my rig's RAM, CPU or GPU alone, I keep fine tuning them and get them to work for me.

In my last flight test (Caucasus map) I flew at tree-top with very smooth visual but have this occasional fogging in the center of the screen, when I remember what causes it I'll sort it out.

The Headset itself is not at fault, it just pumps out more resources than a G2 but overall, when it is sorted it is better.

 

[Lange_666]

Pico 4 is on it's return. Not good enough, need something with a proper display port.