KA-50 Air To Air Capabilities?

[sobek]

A random thought crossed my mind this morning:

 

- If you are in a typical Black Shark mission, CAS, or similar, but you know for sure you're going to fly near enemy helicopters, what would you prefer as ordnance, 2 R-73, or 12 Vikhr?

 

Even in an escort mission, where you probably will find the biggest threat against the escorted elements is another attack helicopter, would you sacrifice all your long range AG firepower, just to carry 2 AA missiles, wich can be spoofed with flares? Would you risk loosing an encounter with enemy armor?

 

The only scenario in wich those missiles are more useful than a Vikhr, is hunting slow moving, low fliying planes. And that work is done by other planes, not by sitting ducks.

 

 

Well said, +5:thumbup:

[Boberro]

2 R-73, or 12 Vikhr?.

 

If I correctly understood your post remember you could take Archers and Vikhrs together. Not Archers OR Vikhrs. R-73 on inner pylons, 9A4172 on external.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Boberro

[Rhino4]

Its time this repetitive discussion grows up. I think we should all agree on the following.

 

Facts:

- There is footage showing a Ka-50 flying with an inert R-73

- No live footage of a Ka-50 firing this weapon has been seen (by me)

- The official documents claim it has the ability to carry the Igla (otherwise unconfirmed)

- The Ka-50 cockpit has a second A2A mode switch on the joystick itself (modelled by ED but inactive for lack of published references).

- Almost all types of attack helicopters are built to carry AAMs

- The Oh-58 regularly sports ATA in service, the Mi-24 was modified and put into limited service as a Cessna interceptor (but the R-60 wasn't satisfactory)

- Many smaller countries are much keener to have AA abilities on their helicopters and it makes sense to have a self-defense/opportunistic snapshot AAM capability for at least one aircraft in a group of helicopters under a variety of combat conditions - although helicopters aren't ideal platforms for air combat.

 

A few of those I kinda agree with. Alot of them are wrooooong though:

- The Oh-58 regularly sports ATA in service

That is not true. OH-58D®s rarely carry a2a and only under very specific circumstances. 90% of the pictures and videos you have seen with a2a attached are bell advertising.

- Almost all types of attack helicopters are built to carry AAMs

That is not true. The truth is that almost all attack helicopters (and by "almost all" I really mean "all") are built to carry a2g munitions. Most attack helicopters are only tested after the fact with a2a missiles to see if they'd even be able to fire them in the unlikely event that some idiot in charge thought it would be a good idea. (And the OH-58D® is not an attack helicopter ;)).

- The Ka-50 cockpit has a second A2A mode switch on the joystick itself (modelled by ED but inactive for lack of published references).

That is not true. It was modelled as inactive because in the real ka-50 switch has been left inactive. Not because there were no published references. There are many examples of switches on military aircraft being there but just never used (the f-15's a2g switch for example).

- Many smaller countries are much keener to have AA abilities on their helicopters...

Which smaller countries? How do you know this? Do you speak with their military leaders? Are you a supplier?...I'm just saying....first-hand knowledge is better than last-hand assumptions...

[tdar]

I realise this has been done to death, but I found a VERY interesting bit of information about the Ka-50 in an old book of mine:

 

Keep in mind that this was published when the first picture of the Ka-50 was seen in the public, and the heli was referred to as the Ka-41 Hokum, not the Ka-50.

 

Some interesting quotes:

 

- "the Ka-41 has for at least three years been regarded as the world's first helicopter fighter aircraft, intended chiefly for shooting down other helicopters."

 

- "another odd feature in a machine designed for speed is that the fuselage is wide enough to house the crew of two side-by-side."

 

- "the tailwheel landing gear is fully retractable, the main units folding into bulges along the sides of the fuselage"

 

- There are at least 3 and probably 4 weapon stations under each wing".

 

- "Armament: Chin-mounted gun, almost certainly of 30mm calibre; the only photo shows , well outboard on the wings, large rectangular boxes which (it has been surmised) might house the IR-guided version of the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) close range Air-to-Air missile, said to be carried by this helicopter."

 

My comments:

 

It seems like defence analysts, while giving hope to some of us about the Hokums air-to-air capabilites, were woefully wrong with many of their initial understanding of the Ka-50. As we now understand, the Ka-50 doesnt appear to have any air-to-air capabilites at all! maybe just american propoganda to accelerate their own A2A heli capabilites?

[GGTharos]

Actually it was Kamov's PR, IIRC - but I could be wrong.

 

Also some analysts have a bit of a habit of attributing upgrade packages that haven't happened yet as operational capability (See uh ... Su-33 loadout on the net. Yup ...copied from Jane's)

[EtherealN]

Another frequent thing that happens is of course the effects of disinformation. I read somewhere that Kamov had been painting some prototypes to make it seem (on surveillance photos etc) like they were traditional tandem two-seaters. Spy sat photo analysts and HUMINT people then report these false informations, and they then get picked up by people like Jane's etcetera as authoritative.

 

Nothing strange at all with it being reported that military system X or Y has this or that purpose and capability which is all blatantly false, even from seemingly authoritative sources.

 

Aside from all that tho, who here remembers the good old Werewolf "simulator" for the PC in the nineties? Would be interesting to get hold of that one to see if there's any armament differences based on previous Western assumptions - though it would be difficult to distinguish that from the arcadey nature of that game.

 

EDIT, check this out:

 

ZOMG it has CHAFF! It has RWR! :P

Edited February 19, 2009 by EtherealN

[Big_les]

Bit like the method used by some RAF pilots in the war to "shoot" down V1 rockets - they noticed they could upset the gyros in the V1 if they just flew up next to it and nudged it. :D

 

I realise this is beside the point of the thread, but in fact the tactic was to place the wingtip ahead of the V-1's in order to upset the airflow over it, and thereby the gyro. I'm pretty sure that if you physically nudged it, you were doing it wrong...