Sukhoi Su-47 vs F-22 Raptor

[dirt-torpedo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=513_1234634721

enjoy:thumbup:

[Boberro]

Good joke :)

[dirt-torpedo]

Im thinking the F-22's stealth and service altitude are going to dominate.

 

This post shoulda been in the f-22 thread apologies.

[Peyoteros]

Let's wait and see what Guru has to say about it...

[Groove]

Hmm, comparing a deployed fighter to a aerodynamic demonstrator....

 

What's the sense of this video?

[dirt-torpedo]

Hmm, comparing a deployed fighter to a aerodynamic demonstrator....

 

What's the sense of this video?

 

To see what dcs community opinions are out there about this.

[morsmortis]

Speaking of the F-22, check this out...

 

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw020909p2.xml&headline=F-22%20Design%20Shows%20More%20Than%20Expected

[dirt-torpedo]

Speaking of the F-22, check this out...

 

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw020909p2.xml&headline=F-22%20Design%20Shows%20More%20Than%20Expected

 

 

nice read thx.

[Grimes]

To see what dcs community opinions are out there about this.

 

to sum up my reaction to this.... "lawl"

[Mugatu]

pffft 4th gen if their lucky and the only thing the Su-47 is going to out maneuver is a Boeing 777.

[nscode]

pffft 4th gen if their lucky and the only thing the Su-47 is going to out maneuver is a Boeing 777.

 

:suspect: :doh: :rolleyes:

[GGTharos]

The Su-47 would have very good high AoA control but this sort of stops mattering much when that type of wing causes issues in other flight regimes (I believe, IIRC, isn't not so great for supersonic cruise, but I might be wrong) and TVC offsets its capabilities but good.

[Mugatu]

You know what they say, "You can put lipstick on a pig, It's still a pig."

 

Wonder why it's not seeing the light of day, and the move to a more conventional wing (PAK FA) :P

 

[Groove]

Thanks for sharing that HQ video Mugatu.

 

In this video, around 1:02 - 1:16 you can see the biggest problem for the Su-47.

 

Watch how much that wings are actually bended.

[RedTiger]

I like Russian aircraft as much as anybody, but I cringe when I realize that people actually think the Su-47 is a real aircraft intended for production, let alone something intended to be a modern 5th generation fighter. I would think Sukhoi and the Russian Air Force would find that insulting to their intelligence. :P

[nscode]

Maybe becouse of their promotional videos? When they didn't have anything new (and built) to show, they showed Berkut.

 

 

@groove: the bending is not a broblem, and the materials that allow that not to be a problem are actually a part of the tech demonstrated.

Edited February 16, 2009 by nscode

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

If I am not mistaken, Berkut can also carry weapons internally.

[Boberro]

If I am not mistaken, Berkut can also carry weapons internally.

 

Yes it can.

[Force_Feedback]

Old bird, remember having a Soviet made coloring book with the S-37 in it :D And no it wasn't the X-29, oh, and the book is from 1986, that's how 'marvellous/new/ingenoious' the thing is.

 

I think the Pak-fa would be a mix between the F-35 and F-22, so no more big ass Sukhois :(

 

The Su-35BM is the true marvel of Sukhoi, and could be exported in a short while. The thing is, will customers buy it, since its avionics, although modern for Russian standards, are outdated compared to the Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen.

[Vekkinho]

There's single Su-47 and 381 F-22 (soon I hope) so no point in comparing these two...

[Teknetinium]

I believe that 5th gen aircraft for mother Russia will be Su-47 design whit conventional wings. I really dont see any problems whit that. when it comes to stealthy angels Su-47 demonstrator has them, I dont know if its build of radar reflecting materials but why not if it would get in production.

Reminded me of a cool video where Russians were painting Mig-23 whit some kind of stealth materials, when it came back Mig-23 was clean from all paint. So the cheaper solution has already failed testing :)

Edited February 18, 2009 by Teknetinium

[topol-m]

The most irritating thing in this video and in many other, also in statements of US military is how their planes cannot be detected by radar, how they are "invisible" :megalol: Well tat might have been true in the 80`s but the modern russian radars have no problem detecting so called "stealth" aircrafts - they are just detecting them at more close ranges than conventional aircrafts. So this propaganda is just rediculos. Yeah surely it is flashy to say "we have the best fighter in the world cause no one can detect it" :lol: but only little effort is required to search and learn a little bit how radar technology and radar absorbing/deflecting materials and shapes work to find that the F-22s invisibility to radar is just a myth. The powerfull radars introduced with modern SAM systems (S-300PMU, S-400) can detect F-22 much later than F-15 for example but still at such long distances that can shoot him down before he understands the dilema: "Whats that beeping sound? Is this a SAM missile? No, this cannot be, i`m completly invisible" :joystick: Su-35 has a very long range much powerfull radar than F-22 and i`m not sure about the effective echoing ratio of F-22 (its probably classified) but considering that Su-35 can detect small air targets at 400km it is very possible that it can detect it first. So it seem the advantage stealth is not that big as it is compensated with long range detection and higher maneuverability if there is any advantage at all.

[Mugatu]

^^

 

Better keep researching :P

[FuldaGap]

I agree with you topol-m. Too many people have the misconception that stealth means "invisbile". People must understand that it meanst it's just more difficult to detect, and it has to get closer (compared to the F-15 for example) to the radar to be detected. Besides, Russians have always been good with IR-detection and optical systems, so radar isn't the only thing you have to worry about. A F-22 at full burner is quite visible in some spectrums.

 

Besides, quite often when I see pictures F-22s that have intercepted Tu-95s they are carrying external fuel tanks (bye bye stealthiness... hello nice round droptanks).

 

Comparing the F-22 to the Su-47 is quite silly, and most reasons are listed in this thread. One is a tech demonstrator/aerodynamic test while the other is a highly classified air superiority fighter. In some sense they are both sort of relics from the cold war (uh oh.. danger of being flamed here)... but they are.

 

The Su-47-idea with forward sweep has been mentioned in aviation literature for a very long time (at least since the 1980s. And the germans even tried it in WW2) and the concept of a pure dogfighter/air superiority fighter is getting obsolete.

 

A single-role aircraft (yes, I know they've adapted the Raptor to carry JDAM now, but that wasn't the original intention) only really fits into the WW3 scenario where thousands of aircraft would clash in the skies over Germany/central Europe and the Pacific. In such a scenario, it's ok to have "fighters" and "bombers" and "attack aircraft" and "tank busters", but in a "normal" war, most countries can't afford having single-role aircraft anymore. Ofcourse, the US is different because their military budget is larger than most nations national budget, but even they must feel the burden of having to service so many different combat aircraft in even limited operations. (B-1, B-2, B-52, F-15E, F-16C, F-18, F-22, A-10 etc. etc.)

 

That said, I think that in pure air-to-air combat, the F-22 would come out on top against most adversaries most of the time because it's one of the newest planes in any arsenal (ergo: more technologically advanced).

 

However, it's impossible to predict because combat effectiveness depends on more than top speed and the number of bullets in the 20mm and how well a given aircraft can perform impressive airshow-maneuvers (hint: Russian aircraft).

 

In a full-scale war (Conventional "Red Storm Rising"-style WW3), the 380(?) F-22s wouldn't make up for the maybe thousands of older Migs and Sukhois they would face. Sure, the kill ratio might be 10:1 or even 20:1, but i believe lots of F-22s would fall out of the sky in a prolonged conflict. At least to ground fire (as mentioned by topol-m) and the odd encounter with 4.5gen-5gen russians.

 

I just wonder one thing about your post topol-m: How do you know the Su-35 has a more powerful radar than the F-22? I've never seen reliable specs for any of them...

 

Oh well, this has been a long rant, but I have so many opinions :)

 

All things said: The F-22 looks so awesome... It has to be good ;)

[GGTharos]

Actually it is possible to predict, and it is precicely because it is possible to predict that the F-22 has been built.

 

It's funny how people accuse others of 'not understanding that stealth doesn't mean invisible' and then throwing out some interesting theories about how 'F-22 in afterburner is bright in some spectra' ... or apparently presume that the fuel tanks aren't jettisonable? What's up with that?

 

The funny thing about older migs etc? They're decrepit. They can't fly any longer ;)

 

As for the Su-35 having a more powerful radar, have fun with doing some math with a -40dbsm target and tell me if you really REALLY want to end up in an arena where that target can see you at 5 times the range you can, and can fire outside the range that you can detect him at. Go ahead. Do the math. ;) Do it ;)

 

As for SAMs ... F-22/35 + SDB. Buhbye SAM. That is a 60 - read it again, 60 nm attack range against ground targets.

 

The other truly amusing thing is how ridiculously little knowledge people display about the integrated capabilities of the F-22. Even the LITTLE bit of knowledge that's been allowed to leak out isn't shown in those arguments.

 

Here's a clue: The F-22 can passively detect, classify and designate targets for engagement. The radar is slaved to those targets and the engagement follows. That is for any radiating target.

 

What IS correct here is that there are not enough F-22's.

Edited February 19, 2009 by GGTharos