Adjust Bounding Box for 'Pre-Contact' AAR

[Bosun]

[Photos located a few posts down]
Air to air refueling is the most difficult task in the game by far for me.  It takes so much focus and control calibration, that I've gotten plugs for maybe 4-5 times, for a total 5 to 7 minutes out of first 20 hours of trying in an F-14. While I am getting better at it and can reliably plug the basket now, there remains some issues with the bounding box of 'Pre-Contact' for drogue engagement being too forward and inboard for proper approach.

Also difficult is when a tanker will suddenly turn a course with no warning while I'm about to hook up.  Would it be possible to have the tanker do a friendly call when it is about to turn?

The main issue though, is when I'm slowly approaching the basket, less than 5 ft away from it on track, and they tell me to return pre-contact and retract the basket, presumably because I've 'taken too long.'  That's utterly maddening, when I've spent an extra few minutes slowly notching the plane in, and finally getting it on a track to nock it at a steady speed, only to have them retract it.  

So my wish here would be, that the area wherein the tanker 'is aware' of a plane lining up after the ready call, be increased or adjusted to reflect the ideal position of the aircraft prior to pre-contact, and to reflect a more realistic and logical application of "Cleared Contact" calls so that aircraft holding station just aft, and just outboard of the drogue's final extended position be included in that bounding box.  Also - expand the area, and the timing of, 'return pre-contact' triggers so that when an aircraft suddenly turns, for example, it doesn't knock me out of pre-contact simply for falling a few more meters behind after adjusting to the turn.  In a real scenario, would a tanker crew really retract the drogue each time an aircraft that was actively attempting to refuel fell outside the radius of the tanker wingspan or tail length?  I'm willing to admit they might as I'm not an actual pilot - but I have a doubt they would.

It's trouble enough to practice this skill without the tanker making it unnecessarily difficult, so perhaps there could be 'Difficulty Settings' for the tanker that implement different bounding pre-contact box distances and behaviors for the tanker. 
1. Easy Fueling - Bounding Box is larger for pre-contact, basket or boom stays deployed until an abort is called or distance of a quarter-mile is gained from tanker. Tanker gives out a friendly call on channel when it is turning, 'Coming Left to new heading XXX." for example.
2. Realistic Refueling - Bounding box is smaller, but still more-appropriately placed than is current, and distance for drogue or boom to remain deployed is less, as well as the current 'timer' that exists for when the tanker crew gives up on you. (lol.) Finally - tanker does not give any warning for heading changes.

I think if it would be possible to implement that, it may make learning to refuel a little more palatable, and make the more realistic refueling feel a little more authentic and organic. 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Bosun

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Bosun said:

Or when I'm slowly approaching the basket, less than 5 ft away from it on track, and they tell me to return pre-contact and retract the basket, because I've 'taken too long.' 

I’ve never seen this happen in the Hornet or M-2000C. Are you sure you’re actually that close and stable?

[Bosun]

44 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve never seen this happen in the Hornet or M-2000C. Are you sure you’re actually that close and stable?

Yep.  Now, granted, I may have oscillated out of the range momentarily, but then recovered and tracked in.  And that is several minutes past when I would have tracked out of it. 

I feels like there's a trigger to a count down timer that calls the non-contact and retracts the probe, and once you trigger that countdown, nothing stops it until it retracts and you call again.  Regardless where you're at when the timer runs down. 

Further - there absolutely is a timer on the probe for you to make contact, even within the bubble.  I feel like that makes sense game-wise - but isn't something I could see a real crew doing to a pilot who's trying to hook it.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Bosun said:

Yep.  Now, granted, I may have oscillated out of the range momentarily, but then recovered and tracked in.  And that is several minutes past when I would have tracked out of it. 

I feels like there's a trigger to a count down timer that calls the non-contact and retracts the probe, and once you trigger that countdown, nothing stops it until it retracts and you call again.  Regardless where you're at when the timer runs down. 

Further - there absolutely is a timer on the probe for you to make contact, even within the bubble.  I feel like that makes sense game-wise - but isn't something I could see a real crew doing to a pilot who's trying to hook it.

I dunno maybe this is unique to the F-14. I just haven’t seen this behavior. If I wandered out of the zone I would get “return pre-contact” right away, not several minutes later.

Might be worth making a bug report if you can get a track, doesn’t seem like logical behavior. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by SharpeXB

[draconus]

10 hours ago, Bosun said:

What it makes it more difficult than it needs to be, however, is when a tanker will suddenly turn a course with no warning while I'm about to hook up. Or when I'm slowly approaching the basket, less than 5 ft away from it on track, and they tell me to return pre-contact and retract the basket, because I've 'taken too long.'  That's utterly maddening, when I've spent an extra few minutes slowly notching the plane in, after my 10th attempt to hit the basket, and finally getting it on a track to nock it, only to have them retract it. 

Both are really non-issues after you get more proficient in AAR. I heard that some tankers IRL wouldn't inform the pilot about the turn, some did.

I can only advice to use practice mission that uses straight flying tanker, KC-130 preferably or KC-135MPRS.

We all are waiting for the planned improvements on the AAR by ED.

[Bosun]

Photos of the exact moments when the tanker has told me "Return Pre-Contact", and then started retracting the basket: (Note the basket is out in hte 2nd pic, it's just retracted behind the line of sight of the frame.  The first photo, I actually had the probe just at the basket, and about to make a solid connection.)  

Am I taking too long?  Is there a timer? Why does that keep happening?

I have a working theory that the 'Pre-Contact' position is so precise, that once you stabilize your aircraft to approach the basket, and make a solid connection that will keep you pacing and heading with the tanker - you're technically outside the pre-contact bounds, and if you're not already connected, or soon, it does this.  This seems odd, since in order for me to approach the basket and connect, I've got to be roughly where I was.  Seems like the pre-contact area needs to be adjusted? 
You can see the tanker call in the upper left on this first photo.

 

See below pictures of me saddled up, ready to fuel - and still not inside bounds of pre-contact when I made the call: (It could be noted that I'm too far back and right in the first photo - too far down in the 2nd.  However - both photos are close enough, as once I got closer to pre-contact, I had to back off again to be behind the basket, and approach it.  In the first photo, the basket falls just ahead and right of where I am, so I'm in a natural position there to have them extend it.  But they won't until I'm so close that i have to back up to see the basket once it's out.  

Edited June 17, 2023 by Bosun

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Bosun said:

...basket falls just ahead and right of where I am, so I'm in a natural position there to have them extend it. 

You should be pretty close, slightly below and behind the tanker, not next to it.

[Bosun]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:47 AM, draconus said:

You should be pretty close, slightly below and behind the tanker, not next to it.

Yes, that is currently true.  I'm not debating where the defined contact-box currently is, but rather suggesting it could be adjusted for a more realistic interaction. The proposal I'm suggesting is that the area where pre-contact registers for the computer to release the drogue is too forward and too in-toward-center of the tanker.  In the area where I'm flying in the bottom photo, saying "return pre-contact" is ridiculous, and I doubt that any real tanker crew would simply say that to a pilot holding station at that position.  I bet, if you're that close, holding station and called for a drogue, they'd probably think you were close enough, and release it.  They wouldn't wait until the perfect moment your plane is within that small box of contact radius as defined by the computer's programming.  

When I am in pre-contact and get it to register, and the drogue has been reeled out all the way, I actually have to back up, as the drogue is behind and outboard of my nose.  Logically, that makes no sense as a pre-contact box. It should be that the pre-contact box leaves the drogue 50-100 ft ahead, and slightly right of the of the aircraft, for a steady approach.  

The shots I had above, the bottom one?  That's exactly where the drogue extends too - I'd still need to back up a bit to actually line up on it - and it tells me in that position, that I need to return pre-contact? Where the heck does the tanker crew think I am? I'm right there.  

That's what I mean.  You're absolutely correct on where you need to be currently.  I feel like, however, that the positiion I was holding in that last photo should be inside the pre-contact confirmation range.  It could be adjusted. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Bosun

[Bosun]

Changed topic title and updated the post a bit with more reflections.