how to lock up a target w Radar or IRST

[skypickle]

The manual states that in each case the process begins by setting BVR mode and ' set the appropriate range scale on the HUD and HDD in km with the [+] and [-] keys.'  Where does the range come from if you dont even know where the target is? I havent even found the target on Radar so I cannot range it.

[razo+r]

17 minutes ago, skypickle said:

 Where does the range come from if you dont even know where the target is?

It primarily changes the scale on the HDD as well as the HUD. The RADAR and IRST however still do search their full range. These sensors are not affected by that setting. It only limits how far out contacts will be displayed on your HUD and HDD.

17 minutes ago, skypickle said:

I havent even found the target on Radar so I cannot range it.

You can guess where a contact might be and then adjust the range.

Normally, during a normal BVR engagement, you expect your target to be far away from you, so you set the range to an appropriate value like 50km or 100km. This way you will make sure that if the sensor sees a contact, it will be displayed on your HUD and HDD.

[skypickle]

thank you. I guess setting a longer range should slow down the detection process, does it? Otherwise there seems to be no downside to always setting max range

[razo+r]

4 minutes ago, skypickle said:

thank you. I guess setting a longer range should slow down the detection process, does it? Otherwise there seems to be no downside to always setting max range

No, it has no effect on it. Like I said, the RADAR and IRST range / detection time are not influenced by it. You only chose the scale on your HUD and HDD.

Setting max range is not always beneficial. Certain targets will never get detected at max range, so you will be "wasting" space, as nearer contacts will have to share a smaller space and can easily get cluttered.

[skypickle]

Thank you for clarifying-yes I forgot about the clutter downside.

But come to think of it, How does this data (range,azimuth,elevation) enter into the IRST? It's just a glass eyeball on the nose looking for a heat signature. How do you get range out of THAT? I imagine it's like a digital camera sensor and the pixel that lights up can give azimuth elevation-  so why even bother with the controls that set azimuth/elevation (anyway, I thought those controls just moved the radar dish)

[razo+r]

4 minutes ago, skypickle said:

Thank you for clarifying-yes I forgot about the clutter downside.

But come to think of it, How does this data (range,azimuth,elevation) enter into the IRST? It's just a glass eyeball on the nose looking for a heat signature. How do you get range out of THAT? I imagine it's like a digital camera sensor and the pixel that lights up can give azimuth elevation-  so why even bother with the controls that set azimuth/elevation (anyway, I thought those controls just moved the radar dish)

Azimuth and elevation is still needed to point it into the general direction of a contact. The IRST can move. You can see it moving in the external view if you move your head with the helmet mounted sight on.

When in scan mode, you will not get any range information if you use the IRST. Once you lock a contact with it, it will use a laser to find the range.

Edited July 26, 2023 by razo+r

[skypickle]

Just now, razo+r said:

it will use a laser to find the range.

indeed, I found this mentioned on p22 of the manual. So just to clarify my 'understanding' of stealth attacks, the target does not detect the laser so when I 'lock' the target in STT mode with IRST active, there should be no warning in the target aircraft.

 

But when I launch an R27 t/ET they should get a launch warning so it is not really totally stealth. or is it like a tunguska which can launch withoout a warning?

[razo+r]

2 minutes ago, skypickle said:

indeed, I found this mentioned on p22 of the manual. So just to clarify my 'understanding' of stealth attacks, the target does not detect the laser so when I 'lock' the target in STT mode with IRST active, there should be no warning in the target aircraft.

If the target does not have a laser warning receiver, it will not get any warnings. So like F-18, F-16, A-10 won't get a warning, a KA-50 might get one.

2 minutes ago, skypickle said:

 

But when I launch an R27 t/ET they should get a launch warning so it is not really totally stealth. or is it like a tunguska which can launch withoout a warning?

No, they won't. If you launch an IR missile while using the IRST, the target will not get any warning unless it has a MAWS like the A-10C, JF-17, AH-64 etc.

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, skypickle said:

…the target does not detect the laser so when I 'lock' the target in STT mode with IRST active…

I’m a bit confused here. STT is one of the radar complex’s modes and is not a function of the electro-optical system. I’m guessing that you are only using the EOS and that the radar is off. Once EOS has the target locked, the target’s angular coordinates are sent to the seekers of the selected IR missile type which then attempt a lock of their own.

In the sim, once they have a lock and all other parameters are within acceptable limits, you will get launch authorization. The launch itself provides no warning to the target because, other than the rocket motor igniting and the missile being released from the rail, nothing changes.

Range being one of those parameters, it comes from one of two places: either the laser rangefinder or, in the real world, the radar operating in quasi-survey mode.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ironhand

[skypickle]

from p124 of the SU27 manual

Step 5
Once the target has been detected, you next need to lock it up.
To do so, place the TDC over the contact and press the [Enter] key. If the target distance and infrared signature permit, 
the IRST will initiate an STT lock. The target will then be framed by a circle on the HUD.

so it seems that STT lock is not unique to radar.

But then again the manual could be wrong. In step 1 of target acquisition the manual says

Step 1
To search for targets at long range, select the long range [2] mode, 
activate the IRST with the [O] key and set the appropriate range scale 
on the HUD and HDD in km [+] and [-]. Select the best missile for the range 
and target with the [D] key and confirm the selection on the HUD.

But no matter what I do, I cannot change the range in the HUD.

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, skypickle said:

from p124 of the SU27 manual

Step 5
Once the target has been detected, you next need to lock it up.
To do so, place the TDC over the contact and press the [Enter] key. If the target distance and infrared signature permit, 
the IRST will initiate an STT lock. The target will then be framed by a circle on the HUD.

so it seems that STT lock is not unique to radar.

But then again the manual could be wrong. In step 1 of target acquisition the manual says

Step 1
To search for targets at long range, select the long range [2] mode, 
activate the IRST with the [O] key and set the appropriate range scale 
on the HUD and HDD in km [+] and [-]. Select the best missile for the range 
and target with the [D] key and confirm the selection on the HUD.

But no matter what I do, I cannot change the range in the HUD.

That section on missile engagement with EOS as primary is something of a hot mess. Among other things, it tells you to move the radar azimuth scan zone right or left. That aside, SST is short for Single Target Track and EOS is not developing any sort of track. It's simply holding a target lock and informing the IR missiles of the type selected where to look to get their own lock. In the real world manual, an STT type lock is never mentioned.

Regardless of what the DCS manual states, you can't change the target range because the default setting in the real world, when the range is unknown, is 10 km. DCS uses that but then automates range measurement as coming from the laser or radar to set the range scale.