pepin1234 Posted September 21, 2023 Posted September 21, 2023 It's hard that we gonna get all like IRL but something that confuse me is the superpower of AWACS for Data link in DCS. AWACS keep showing my position and reporting all my flight profile while I'm 300 km away with ECM ON. I don't want to know the last military secret but I'm curious how was for real thing 25 years ago with enemy having ECM. and if you are master in Mission editor can you PM me for a hind to make it close to realistic in DCS. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Silver_Dragon Posted September 21, 2023 Posted September 21, 2023 I think there is some misconception here that ECMs in DCS World are "defensive" and only affect the device itself against weapons directed against it, and cannot affect a data link (bearing in mind that they use different frequencies). To block a Data Link like a Link 16 of an E-2/E-3 or an A-50. For that you need an "offensive" ECM with a wide frequency spectrum, and this is not currently simulated in DCS World. In fact, it is quite possible that DCS is using something "generic". For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
Dragon1-1 Posted September 27, 2023 Posted September 27, 2023 Actually, defensive ECM should work against AWACS, too, at least at ranges that aren't too long. It's just that it doesn't in DCS. The AWACS radar, while different from fighter FCRs, is still a radar, and is definitely capable of being jammed. If the AWACS can't see the target, it either won't show on datalink, or it'll show as an unreliable position (so jumping around, for example), depending on the radar and the jammer. It would still be able to give approximate voice directions, particularly if it can manually plot the target. DCS only has fighter jammers that work on (some) fighter radars. I think there's some functionality for affecting SAM FCRs, but otherwise, you can't do much against something like an AWACS or an EWR.
probad Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 how big does your ecm antenna need to be to jam awacs frequencies? 1
Dragon1-1 Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) The AN/APY-1 is an E/F band radar (IEEE S band), so a simple full wave antenna would be about 15cm long. This is definitely within the jammer's effective frequency band, especially seeing as many SAM radars also use it. Once again, AWACS is just a big radar, it's not magic (not even when it's got that callsign ). Big radars are all over the place on the battlefield, though most are on the ground. It can be jammed somewhat, however it can probably overcome the effects of jamming, because it's got a lot of people inside working those radar screens. Plus, it's a search radar, so the types of jamming in DCS (track breaking and barrage jamming) won't work on it, because in the former case there's no lock to break, and in the latter, they would be able to estimate position anyway by observing how the jammer emission source moves. This will potentially degrade datalink, but won't fool a human talking the fighters on. Edited October 4, 2023 by Dragon1-1 2
_Hoss Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 LMAO...... Pick up some books on this subject before you post about it.. heck, use Google https://www.radartutorial.eu/16.eccm/ja01.en.html US Figters DECM (AN/ALQ-126) will not respond to AWACS plane's SEARCH RADAR...it's not in the Threat Library, your AN/ALR-67 will tell you his RADAR knows where you are.. and you can bet he's telling his little buddies on your flank via DATALINK. And everything still looks normal... BOOM... Deception uses ECM to forge false target signals that the radar receiver accepts and processes as real targets. The pulse repetition frequency of the false target signals are: either unsynchronous to the pulse repetition frequency of the radar unit and the interfering pulses write narrow scroll-shaped sectors on the monitor, or either synchronous to the pulse repetition frequency of the radar unit or even derived from the radar unit's own transmitting impulse. (Repeater Jammer). The impulse sent out to the deception then has another range, another azimuth, or another speed than the true aim sign. (AN/ALQ-126)(Pulse for Pulse) ED needs to hope they don't know, and if they do... they are smart enough not to advertise they know how it works. Quickly out of business... this is a game, not real life.. enjoy it for what it is... A Big, Deep, Black money pit............................... 6639/6641/6645 USN/NEC 1 Sempre Fortis
Dragon1-1 Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 13 hours ago, _Hoss said: US Figters DECM (AN/ALQ-126) will not respond to AWACS plane's SEARCH RADAR...it's not in the Threat Library, your AN/ALR-67 will tell you his RADAR knows where you are.. Well, duh? Of course a US DECM wouldn't respond to an US AWACS. Why would it? Obviously we're not talking jamming blue AWACS with blue fighters. DCS isn't limited to US fighters, you know? OK, so all aircraft that carry Sorbtsiya are low fidelity, but we have an A-50 Mainstay, which US fighters very much can jam. There's no information I could find about its radar frequencies, but it's safe to assume it's also S band, given the antenna dimensions are similar. I'm not sure what your point is, but I deeply suspect it's irrelevant, just like the link you posted.
_Hoss Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) Jesus, Joseph, and Mary..... okay.... I mean, after all, this was the title of the thread... How AWACS/EWR saw enemy with ECM 25 years ago IRL IN REAL LIFE........... Let's take a quick poll....... how many of you were repairing AN/ALQ-126A/B 25 years ago??????? I'll wait........... You would have needed a USN/NEC of 6645 and a Secret Clearance. I also had an Instructor NEC, yep I actually taught young impressionalble Sailors and Marines how to repair this stuff too... They actually listened,... and cracked open their PUBs..imagine that.......... The Marines were always the smartest in the bunch... Chew on this... how did we handle the Iranian F-14's AWG-9 RADAR back in the '80s?, especially on April 18, 1988.... only it was F-4s that came out to play with us that day. Iranians were going to Avionics school with me at NAS Millington, TN. back in 77/78. Mud Ducks (Aviation USCG) were in attendance too... The Treat Library in the 67 and 126 will see our RADAR as friendly and not respond even during lock-on... so what did we use? I can argue this point until the cows come home, but if you don't have a foundation to stand on, I can't help you understand. So Mark Twain said it best:.....The trouble with the world is not that people know too little; it is that they know so many things that just aren’t so. He also said:....-- There is nothing like instances to grow hair on a bald-headed argument. But, George Orwell stuck a pin in it with this... To see what is in front of one's nose needs constant struggle... the link I shared... So much information “Many are destined to reason wrongly; others, not reason at all; and others, to persecute those who do reason”. Voltaire.... Cheers Hoss Spoiler Edited October 5, 2023 by _Hoss 1 Sempre Fortis
Dragon1-1 Posted October 6, 2023 Posted October 6, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, _Hoss said: Chew on this... how did we handle the Iranian F-14's AWG-9 RADAR back in the '80s?, especially on April 18, 1988.... only it was F-4s that came out to play with us that day. Iranians were going to Avionics school with me at NAS Millington, TN. back in 77/78. Mud Ducks (Aviation USCG) were in attendance too... As interesting as all this is, Iran is a unique case, using US hardware while being very much hostile to US. How many other countries like that you can name? All the time you're talking about a rather unusual (outside of training scenarios) situation. How did your AWACS perform against Russian jammers (rhetorical, I know you're probably not allowed to actually tell us)? Obviously, when you're going up against equipment your side knows inside and out because they've made the bloody thing, the enemy EW capability is not going to be good for much. I admit that the behavior is probably realistic when flying an NATO vs. NATO multiplayer matches. I would not expect this to be that easy when it comes to NATO vs. Russia. BTW, the link you shared contains one paragraph primers on very basics of EW, I don't see how that is "so much information". Also, quoting Mohinder Singh would get you further than two guys who, by all accounts, didn't know very much about electronic warfare. Edited October 6, 2023 by Dragon1-1 1
_Hoss Posted October 6, 2023 Posted October 6, 2023 (edited) Quote BTW, the link you shared contains one paragraph primers on the very basics of EW, I don't see how that is "so much information". You could have gone to every page on that website and learned about ECM/RADAR... after all, it's called the Radar Tutorial page. Upper left-hand corner, there are GUI radio buttons you can select that can take you to a veritable cornucopia of information about the RADAR/ECM Electromagnetic Spectrum.... Basics/RADAR sets/RADAR Technology/Radar Devices ECM is in the BASIC section The answer to my Question was the AN/DLQ-3B... it was a stop-gap measure... April 88 the EA-6B's just fried the Iranian F-4 RADARS... they turned around and went home... You have to realize most all of this stuff, no matter which nation, works in the same frequency range and power ranges... I worked on F/A-18 RADAR 65/73 and the ALQ-126, which played with Soviet/Russian RADAR and fire control systems... Same freq ranges.. same power ranges... AN/APG-65 is I-Band... So you have all this electromagnetic energy floating around in space.. that ECM system in your Hornet just can't be going off on everything it sees. your enemy can just home on jam and yer dead... That's why it only responds.... okay..wait for it..... one pulse returned, for every pulse that strikes the A/C skin, but only if its fingerprint matches the Threat Library database. No AWACS planes are in that DATABASE as a Threat... and you have to be within the required, received, signal strength, to trigger the transmitter to transmit..... at 300 miles away you will not be responding to anything... even if it was a fire control radar... You would think I'd just give up... but to be armed with the facts, you can better present your argument to ED..... remember the hand that feeds you... in this case Information... “If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.” M. Twain..... Hey, everyone have a great weekend... I've got a playdate with my Great Granddaughter at 1400..... my day is golden... Edited October 6, 2023 by _Hoss 1 Sempre Fortis
Dragon1-1 Posted October 6, 2023 Posted October 6, 2023 3 hours ago, _Hoss said: No AWACS planes are in that DATABASE as a Threat... Now you've given some relevant information that's actually new, as opposed to obvious facts and pretentious quotes. If the A-50 isn't in Hornet's threat database, then it won't jam it (it still doesn't tell us anything about AN/ALQ-184 can do, but it's a start). Which is interesting, because one would think a Russian AWACS would be a threat indeed. I assume you made damn sure this info is OK to divulge. So less Twain quotes and more relevant info, please, because only the latter contributes to the discussion. As for the site, at a glance it doesn't appear to have anything that isn't in Singh's book, Electronic Warfare, or in any other open source EW handbook of your choice. You'd do much better if you just assumed I've read and understood one of these. In particular, I'm familiar with how the types of jamming currently simulated in DCS operate. I also know that while barrage jamming is a risk due to HOJ, as you said, it does not mean it's not useful in certain situations. AFAIK, DECM pods can operate in barrage mode, in order to deny ranging information to radars that are not necessarily locked onto the aircraft. My point was, there is no physical limitation preventing an antenna that can be mounted on a fighter aircraft from interfering with S-band frequencies of an AWACS. I have no idea how those are actually configured because, guess what, this info tends to be rather sensitive. It's not unreasonable to expect a self-protection jammer to have an effect on early warning and search radars used by potentially hostile countries. If it's not, in fact, the case, and it can only jam FCRs even in barrage mode, I stand corrected. 1
_Hoss Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) LMFAO.................... You don't like my answers?... ask relevant questions........................ Mark and I are really hurt you don't like his quotes?......oh my gosh, that really hurts... well, here is the one I said I prolly shouldn't share... but holy shiznit, does it fit...and he said... I quote... “No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot" it seems you forgot what Mark said about the principal differences between a man and a dog... Well.......... there's nothing to be learned from the second kick of a mule... If all you need in life is ignorance and confidence, well duder, you've got it licked........... that's a quote by Hoss... "In philosophy, or religion, or ethics, or politics, or DCS, two and two might make five, but when one is designing a car, or an airplane or an Electronic Warfare system, they had to make four.” nope, not Mark... and embellished a bit... G. Orwell FINI..... Edited October 7, 2023 by _Hoss Sempre Fortis
Silver_Dragon Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) @_Hoss a question. I am not military, I have no knowledge but what I have seen in some magazine and some wargame (HarpoonV), and I am a total layman.... While a "defensive" ECM like an AN/ALQ-184 catalogues any air, naval and ground search radar as a non-threat, which will not trigger the jamming signal. An "offensive" ECM such as an EB-66E standoff jammers, ALT-2, ALQ-31B, ALQ-76, ALQ-249 spot jamming pods, AN/ALQ-99, ALQ-99F, SPS-5 Fasol, SPS-55 Buket escort jammers, Ikebana, L-187A Rychag-AV, SPS-88M Smalta-M spot jamming pods, SPS-1 or SPS-2 escort jammers, generating clutter vs search and attack radars and reduce the radar detection range? Are standoff jammers powerful enough to literally "burn" radar and other electronic equipment? Edited October 7, 2023 by Silver_Dragon For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
GGTharos Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 On 9/21/2023 at 7:47 AM, pepin1234 said: It's hard that we gonna get all like IRL but something that confuse me is the superpower of AWACS for Data link in DCS. AWACS keep showing my position and reporting all my flight profile while I'm 300 km away with ECM ON. I don't want to know the last military secret but I'm curious how was for real thing 25 years ago with enemy having ECM. and if you are master in Mission editor can you PM me for a hind to make it close to realistic in DCS. Looks like you got a lot of replies. So it has to do with what the jammer is programmed to do, and why it is programmed that way. For the why you could consider a couple of things: Self-defensive jammers have limited resources and would be picky about what they'll jam, likely they wouldn't jam anything that isn't attacking them. Of course, there's a large variety of jammers with different capabilities so this isn't true for everything. In any case, just consider the DCS SPJ as a made up jammer, the behavior has some realistic components and some not so realistic. But regarding actual IRL fighting, you could probably expect dedicated ECM assets to be used against enemy surveillance, which is something that isn't available in DCS. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
pepin1234 Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 On 10/4/2023 at 9:53 AM, probad said: how big does your ecm antenna need to be to jam awacs frequencies? It’s not about jamming the AWACS. It’s more about the DCS AWACS keep showing the same like do with a clean scenery. At least a lag in the bandit movement should be appreciated in such generic AWACS in DCS… [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
_Hoss Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 Yes, the EA-6Bs had the gold lined canopies, radiation shielding from their AN/ALQ-99s which are more powerful than ASPJs. It depends how close they can get without a ground or sea borne transmitters burning through. Or they can home on jam..and yer done... Example.... Soviet FCR usually operates between 2-16Ghz back in the 80s. That was divided into Low, Mid and high band..... 2-4, 4-8, and 8-16 Ghz.... you had a crystal detector in the receiver circuits of the 126, if some knucklehead AT or stupid J.O. pilot self-tested his ALQ on the flight deck he aways burned up his low band crystal detector. (You had to put dummy loads on the L/M/H band input lines to self test on deck.... or anywhere.... except airborne) Now, I don't know how or what other services, or how other countries built their systems. So I would be guessing at this point. That was the Alpha, Delta Mod version of the ALQ-126. THE B version went to solid state band pass filters. And got rid of the input TWTs and went solid state there too. The only thing I know for sure is our Prowlers sent the Iranian F-4s running for home when they lit them up with their jammers, and all shore comms. They were deaf, dumb and blind and couldn't tell anyone. I don't know what ASPJ system the Iranians had in the F-4, but their Tomcats were carrying ALQ-100s. I No one asks about the Electronic Warfare A-3Ds from VAQ Dets out of Guam.... They were the Survellance planes we took on cruise, we picked them up in the Philippines. They flew along the coast and got people to turn on their Search and FCR so they could record and triangulate where the systems were and their capabilities. INTEL... now I can build an attack plan where I can use all the tools at my disposal, to get my package in and out..... one pass haul ass.... only fumb duckers loiter in Indian country.. Sorry If you know an FCR/SEARCH RADAR systems carrier freq. You can jam it, decieve it..... even Frenquency Agile RADARS. Most RWRs BP is .5Ghz to 18Ghz that includes AWACS. You see them on the 67s screen, but the ASPJ does not. I can't wait for the A-7E and A-6E to show up. Hopefully they model the ALE-41 Chaff Pod for the A-6. I'm interestd to see how Operation Preying Mantis plays in game. Lt. Lee was an A-7E pilot in VA-94, he came down to our shop, April 17th 1988, and asked if this stuff really works. Greg, my running mate from VA-22 told him to let us know if he ever had to use it. He laughed, we laughed. We didn't have a clue what would happen the next day. Mr. Lee was the Avionics Div Officer in VA-94, O-level maintenance...... we were TAD to AIMD. I-LEVEL maint. That was also the last A-7E cruise on the West Coast. Then I went to NAMTRAGRUDET at Lemoore and taught this.... PM me next time..... Sempre Fortis
_Hoss Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, GGTharos said: Looks like you got a lot of replies. So it has to do with what the jammer is programmed to do, and why it is programmed that way. For the why you could consider a couple of things: Self-defensive jammers have limited resources and would be picky about what they'll jam, likely they wouldn't jam anything that isn't attacking them. Of course, there's a large variety of jammers with different capabilities so this isn't true for everything. In any case, just consider the DCS SPJ as a made up jammer, the behavior has some realistic components and some not so realistic. But regarding actual IRL fighting, you could probably expect dedicated ECM assets to be used against enemy surveillance, which is something that isn't available in DCS. Yes, resources are limited. But ASPJs have the Threat Library in its memory, just like the ALR-67. You can say it's a criminal database but we are only interested in the FBIs 10 most wanted list. Each FCR system has its fingerprint that identifies it. Now we have a deception technique that gets assigned to this FCR, and the more deadly the system, the higher priority it gets.. We will keep transmitting that technique for as long as that RADAR has lock on us, and we're in our signal sensitivity threashold or it's missiles seeker head is transmitting. Now, if that RADAR fits the band pass, and we can't determine it's fingerprint... i.e. UNK..... it gets assigned a generic technique... you need to vacate the AO.... now IRL. As to whatever it is you guys are seeing dealing with the AWACS, and what it has to do with DCS I have not seen myself. I can not tell you what an AWACS operator sees on his screen while some A/C 200nm out, looks like while he's responding to an Airborne or Surface FCR. The AWACS TX freq (carrier freq) is lower than the FCS of whatever is being jammed. Remember it's the carrier freq. we need to get inside our enemies receiver. So, will he see it? Sempre Fortis
Silver_Dragon Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 I remember reading somewhere (I can't find it at the moment) about an "incident" between an EA-6B and a Ticonderoga Aegis cruiser (could be another ship), during some manoeuvres I think in the Atlantic... let's say that the EA-6B acted as "aggressor" and approached a TF to start jamming the radars with the AN/ALQ-99, increasing ECM "power". It seems that from the "Ticonderoga" they made ECCM and/or the AN/SPY-1 radar also increasing the power and from there, a "competition" began to see who could hold more... let's say that when one went up, the other did the counter and according to the story .... the EA-6B ended with chipped paint and the "ticonderoga" exploded two racks of electronics with a fire on board... until both withdrew... I don't know if you've heard anything about this. For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
_Hoss Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, pepin1234 said: It’s not about jamming the AWACS. It’s more about the DCS AWACS keep showing the same like do with a clean scenery. At least a lag in the bandit movement should be appreciated in such generic AWACS in DCS… On the Hornet there are four antennas (Quad Receiver) and Pre-amplifer. They receive your FCR RF emissions........ you have band pass filters on the ALR-67 (.5 - 18Ghz) and ALQ-126 is a tad tighter on the lower end. DECM systems transmit the same power and frequency ranges as their equivalent RADAR transmitters. You also transmit back on the same antennas. Go look at the EA-6B. that big bulge on the tail is the antenna, the canopy is gold lined and the cockpit is shielded to protect them from being nucalated like a hot dog. The Growler carries the same ALQ-99... AWACS are freq agile, and capable of very narrow sector scans, depending on how his PRF/PW is changing, is how your RWR is going to see him. 360⁰ Broadband search is a slower position update on each other... with freq hopping and sector scan you are painted much faster.... you both know where each other are at a quicker refresh rate.... other than that, I'm at a loss for what you are seeing. As an IL2 Beta tester, we need to record tracks, helps to explain what you are seeing. From all the bellrin' and faunchin' I guess it's repeatable, and more than a few are seeing it. Video tracks.... start making them. Get on comms with buddies, get in the preferable parameters and start recording. Give it to the Devs. Sempre Fortis
Dragon1-1 Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 12 hours ago, pepin1234 said: It’s not about jamming the AWACS. It’s more about the DCS AWACS keep showing the same like do with a clean scenery. At least a lag in the bandit movement should be appreciated in such generic AWACS in DCS… This is probably realistic. If the AWACS radar signal isn't being jammed, then it is not going to look any different. Seeing as our jamming hardware is apparently not programmed to mess with those, the kind of EW options we have in DCS would not affect AWACS picture in any way. Bandit movement would not lag, because AWACS is fairly capable of compensating for movement between sweeps, once it has position and velocity, then it'll have a pretty good idea where he is. So I don't think there's anything to fix in here. If you wanted an answer not cluttered by barely relevant walls of text, pretentious quotes and rambling stories (as much as I'd love to see some of that stuff in DCS, we don't have any of it), here you go.
Recommended Posts