What is the point of trimming a cyclic with no springs?

[McGraw]

I tried flying the apache first with no springs on my gunfighter then went back so I could fly fixed wing with no swapping around.

I've decided I hate the centre trim mode. I can't  bear the wobble when you trim then let  go.

So I've gone back to springless.

Why does the trimmer mode for springless affect the cyclic as well as the rudder? I don't want the cyclic trimmed.

If my cyclic stays where I put it then it is trimmed already. Telling the sim this is my  centre point is absolutely useless as far as I can tell.

Am I missing  something or does it not affect anything anyway?

[MAXsenna]

10 minutes ago, McGraw said:

I tried flying the apache first with no springs on my gunfighter then went back so I could fly fixed wing with no swapping around.

I've decided I hate the centre trim mode. I can't  bear the wobble when you trim then let  go.

So I've gone back to springless.

Why does the trimmer mode for springless affect the cyclic as well as the rudder? I don't want the cyclic trimmed.

If my cyclic stays where I put it then it is trimmed already. Telling the sim this is my  centre point is absolutely useless as far as I can tell.

Am I missing  something or does it not affect anything anyway?

You need to "trim" to "tell the flight systems/'autopilot' what you want".

Open the Controls Indicator and you can observe this.

What settings have you set for the torque pedals? 

[Extranajero]

The Apache's autostabilisation and autopilot system is pretty complex, but the TL:DR is that if you aren't trimming properly - despite having no springs  - there will be times when it will be fighting your control inputs. Trimming also affects your hold modes. There isn't a way to properly simulate the Apache's control system and remove the need for trimming.

[McGraw]

30 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You need to "trim" to "tell the flight systems/'autopilot' what you want".

Open the Controls Indicator and you can observe this.

What settings have you set for the torque pedals? 

I know this for the real thing or a centring joystick but my situation is  different. I effectively fly without ever trimming if  I don't trim rudder.

Im using a TWCS as centring trim mode paddles currently but have tried my racing pedals too in this mode.

23 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

The Apache's autostabilisation and autopilot system is pretty complex, but the TL:DR is that if you aren't trimming properly - despite having no springs  - there will be times when it will be fighting your control inputs. Trimming also affects your hold modes. There isn't a way to properly simulate the Apache's control system and remove the need for trimming.

Ok, I guess I'm just playing along with the systems then. Fair enough

[MAXsenna]

34 minutes ago, McGraw said:

I know this for the real thing or a centring joystick but my situation is  different. I effectively fly without ever trimming if  I don't trim rudder.

What Extra wrote. Like I wrote, you can observe this in the Controls Indicator. 

34 minutes ago, McGraw said:

Im using a TWCS as centring trim mode paddles currently but have tried my racing pedals too in this mode.

I see. To bad you don't have the T. Flight pedals with them. One can turn them upside down. Remove a lid with on screw, then remove the one spring at has, which takes seconds to re-insert for planes. 

Cheers! 

[McGraw]

49 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

What Extra wrote. Like I wrote, you can observe this in the Controls Indicator. 

I see. To bad you don't have the T. Flight pedals with them. One can turn them upside down. Remove a lid with on screw, then remove the one spring at has, which takes seconds to re-insert for planes. 

Cheers! 

I'm not too fussed about pedals at the moment, I intend to get some dedicated ones soon.

I'm also not sure why you keep tellling me to observe the controls indicator, I've run it for hours. The only thing trimming does is draw a rectangle around my controls. Nothing actually changes...unless I am not observing correctly?

[admiki]

You might want to look for existing threads here. We have gone over this exact topic multiple times already. There you will find the more detailed explanations of why you want to keep trimming even with your setup.

[Extranajero]

1 hour ago, McGraw said:

I'm not too fussed about pedals at the moment, I intend to get some dedicated ones soon.

I'm also not sure why you keep tellling me to observe the controls indicator, I've run it for hours. The only thing trimming does is draw a rectangle around my controls. Nothing actually changes...unless I am not observing correctly?

There's a lot about helo's which seems counter-intuitive for anyone used to fixed wing, you should check out BradMicks series of videos that are linked in this forum.
I believe he's a real world instructor pilot on the '64 and he's got the knack of explaining things in a very understandable way.
It'll probably help you to start right from the beginning with his videos, there is a mine of useful information in them. Good luck.

[Floyd1212]

For example, this thread (with a very similar title) where Raptor9 provided a great response:

The bottom line is, the systems assume that moving the cyclic around without trimming is just a temporary change in attitude, while trimming to the new position tells the systems this is the new attitude I want you to assist me with.

[McGraw]

30 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

There's a lot about helo's which seems counter-intuitive for anyone used to fixed wing, you should check out BradMicks series of videos that are linked in this forum.
I believe he's a real world instructor pilot on the '64 and he's got the knack of explaining things in a very understandable way.
It'll probably help you to start right from the beginning with his videos, there is a mine of useful information in them. Good luck.

I've done a lot of reading and can fly the  apache reasonably ok. I fully understand how the trim works IRL. The issue I have is that without FFB, the stick isn;t held in place when trimmed. Honestly would like to know how many people commenting on here have actually flown without springs. It's the equivalent of flying the real AH64 but the part of the systems that hold the cyclic physically in the trim position are broken.

I get it though, the flight computer is expecting trim.

[Extranajero]

2 hours ago, McGraw said:

 Honestly would like to know how many people commenting on here have actually flown without springs.

I do, that's my setup for helos

[MAXsenna]

3 hours ago, McGraw said:

Nothing actually changes...unless I am not observing correctly?

It show stick position, trim position and what the system is doing when you're out of trim. 

I use FFB. 

[McGraw]

7 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

For example, this thread (with a very similar title) where Raptor9 provided a great response:

The bottom line is, the systems assume that moving the cyclic around without trimming is just a temporary change in attitude, while trimming to the new position tells the systems this is the new attitude I want you to assist me with.

Seems like if you can answer why this isn't just another way of repeating my initial question I might have my answer.

What assistance do I need? This isn't a FBW jet like the Typhoon that will fall out of the sky without the computer is it? i can fly it with the FMC disengaged

[admiki]

You might want to check your attitude. People are trying to help you here, even though this has been asked more than once. And before you ask, I fly VKB GF3 without springs (actually I have #10 spring per axis to keep my MCGU on extension to fall over).

If you don't like answers, stop being lazy and go through already existing threads in search for your answers.

[MAXsenna]

What assistance do I need?

You literally asked in your OP: "Am I missing something or does it not affect anything anyway?" 
People are just trying to explain to you how it works and how it is simulated, and how it is very different in the Apache compared to the Huey compared to let's say the Huey and the Gazelle, where you can turn off the magnetic brake, which I do unless I'm cruising. One of the benefits of FFB.
Cheers! 

Edited September 24, 2023 by MAXsenna

[Extranajero]

12 hours ago, McGraw said:

 

What assistance do I need? This isn't a FBW jet like the Typhoon that will fall out of the sky without the computer is it? i can fly it with the FMC disengage

You can switch off the stability augmentation, I think there's a keybind that doesn't exist in the real helo, there's definitely an MPD menu option.
Give it a try, you'll find the '64 needs a lot of concentration to fly without it.

[McGraw]

9 hours ago, admiki said:

You might want to check your attitude. People are trying to help you here, even though this has been asked more than once. And before you ask, I fly VKB GF3 without springs (actually I have #10 spring per axis to keep my MCGU on extension to fall over).

If you don't like answers, stop being lazy and go through already existing threads in search for your answers.

You're reading attitude where it doesn't exist.

I've read many threads and flown for many hours in different configs. I'm definitely not lazy.

I've flown it with the FMC disengaged.

I've flown it without ever trimming.

Nothing changes for me when trimming or not trimmming. In fact, other than having to keep rudder held manually, getting in a hover seems easier for me without trimming.

 

I suppose the answer is as I kind of stated before, you're telling the FMC that you're in a place you want to be.

[Floyd1212]

Maybe post a track to show us what you mean by "nothing changes" when trimming vs. not trimming.  Include a mix of cruising and hovering, with ATT Hold engaged and disengaged, with the Controls Indicator up, first without trimming then with trimming.

Could it be something is borked with your install?

As Raptor9 explained in his post, "The Controls Indicator represents the cyclic's force trim reference location with the red X. If the cyclic is not within roughly 2% of this position, you can toggle Attitude Hold all day and display the box around the TAS readout, but it will have no effect on the flight controls."