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Brazil have canceled program FX to equip Air Force with new figthers

 

The aquisition was delayed because of perspective of tecnological evelution anc concept in a few years

 

Until there Brazil will buy used figthers and the choices are

 

F-16-A modernized from Holanda

Mirage2000 C From France

SU-27 From Russia

 

But i really dont know how is the best choice i really apreciate your commenst

 

Im not sure about the prices..but ins something like

F-16 - $ 5.000.000,00

M2K- $ 14.000.000,00

SU-27 $ 10.000.000,00

 

This figthers will be used for at least 5 years ..while in the background a new process selection will be made taking in consideration the new figthers that will became avaliable in this period.

Rodrigo Monteiro

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if the F-16 gets the MLU to current standards it is surely the best choice...

 

it´s a proven airframe and very versatile...

 

A2A and A2G modes... plenty of spares...

 

the Mirage 2k i don´t know how the support and development is going... but it´s much more expensive than the F-16...

 

the Su-27 may be better than the F-16 but it´s more expensive and lacks A2G capabilty...

 

Just my thoughts...

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Guest ThomasDWeiss

The best stop-gap choice would be to lease ex-FAF Mirage 2000 or 2000-5 - because EMBAER would be able to support it due to their link with Dassault, and maybe then order the Rafale in 2010-2012.

 

It is interesting that the Flanker is the Air Force's choice while the Grippen comes 2nd.

 

The reason why the Air Force did not want the 2000-5 was the fact that it plans to replace the F-5BR with the fighter that is chosen to replace the IIIE-BR . and the Air Force clearly does not want to operate a great but at the end of the development-cycle fighter.

 

As for the F-16 Block 50, this would be just an expedient choice that would tie the FAB to the US an leave the depended on the whims of whichever administration is in power, clearly an undesirable choice. Of course if the US offered the F-16I or F-16 Block 60 at very favorable prices, Brazil would order it, but the US would never do that, like when they let the French sell an Aircraft Carrier to Brazil rather that part with one of their old mothballed Forestal Class carriers.

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F-16-A modernized from Holanda

Mirage2000 C From France

SU-27 From Russia

 

French 2000 C use the rdi radar which is not cleared for export.

BTW, France will only start to retire her mirage 2000C in 2008.

 

A good oportunity would have been the mirage 2000-5 from Qatar, but India has already put an option on them.

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The best stop-gap choice would be to lease ex-FAF Mirage 2000 or 2000-5 - because EMBAER would be able to support it due to their link with Dassault, and maybe then order the Rafale in 2010-2012.

 

It is interesting that the Flanker is the Air Force's choice while the Grippen comes 2nd.

 

The reason why the Air Force did not want the 2000-5 was the fact that it plans to replace the F-5BR with the fighter that is chosen to replace the IIIE-BR . and the Air Force clearly does not want to operate a great but at the end of the development-cycle fighter.

 

As for the F-16 Block 50, this would be just an expedient choice that would tie the FAB to the US an leave the depended on the whims of whichever administration is in power, clearly an undesirable choice. Of course if the US offered the F-16I or F-16 Block 60 at very favorable prices, Brazil would order it, but the US would never do that, like when they let the French sell an Aircraft Carrier to Brazil rather that part with one of their old mothballed Forestal Class carriers.

 

Unfortunelly the F-16 in question is the F-16 A 15 or 10 :( remenber it is GAP not the new figther so it will be an old one .. not the one fo the last versions

Rodrigo Monteiro

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F-16-A modernized from Holanda

Mirage2000 C From France

SU-27 From Russia

 

French 2000 C use the rdi radar which is not cleared for export.

BTW, France will only start to retire her mirage 2000C in 2008.

 

A good oportunity would have been the mirage 2000-5 from Qatar, but India has already put an option on them.

 

the RDY was already in the proposal to the Mirage2000 BR ( an improved version from the M2k-5 from EMBRAER/DASSAULT with some avionics from Rafale include also and other things i cant remenber now ) Kovy...soh o dont see any problems in getting it with the Mirage2000 C Remenber dassault have interests in Brazil ( IE EMBRAER )

 

It could open doors to an future aquisition of rafales to the NAVY and AIR force

Rodrigo Monteiro

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Wasn't the swedish JAS one of the competitors as well? I could swear I have read something about it in the news here in sweden.

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the RDY was already in the proposal to the Mirage2000 BR ( an improved version from the M2k-5 from EMBRAER/DASSAULT with some avionics from Rafale include also and other things i cant remenber now ) Kovy...soh o dont see any problems in getting it with the Mirage2000 C Remenber dassault have interests in Brazil ( IE EMBRAER )

 

Yes, the RDM (and its various upgraded versions), the RDY and the RDY2 are cleared for export....but not the RDI ... I don't know why, but it is a fact :wink:

 

Now, this fact may change if Brazil shows interrest in used mirage 2000C

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Wasn't the swedish JAS one of the competitors as well? I could swear I have read something about it in the news here in sweden.

 

Yes it was Pilgrim.

Rodrigo Monteiro

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IMO, Brazil needs CAS aircraft & helicopters more than they do fighters, I just don't see any potential air threats around it at this time (unless they're just looking for something to use against airborne smugglers…). I feel that going for more AMX's and getting some Mi-24's on the side would be the best idea. Having said that, if they are seriously looking at one of those three fighters then the Su-27 is the best choice. Brazil is a huge country and needs a long-range fighter with powerful radar to effectively police its airspace. Also, while it lacks precision A/G weapons it has the best growth potential of the three (could be upgraded to Su-27SM status in the future). The Mirage just seems too pricy. The F-16 would be a bargain but along with the mentioned political strings, I seriously doubt the Americans would sell weapons like AMRAAM so its capabilities would be rather limited (especially in the air defense role if they didn't get AMRAAM).

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they have sold AMRAAM´s to most of their allies... including Portugal and Egypt (i think)....

 

But not to South America (at least as of the last time I checked). I know Chile was interested in F-16's but only if equipped with AMRAAM, and I'm not sure if this deal went through or not. Anyone know?

If it didn't, then I doubt they will sell AMRAAM to that region, at least until Venezuela gets their MiG-29's (which will probably be RVV-AE equipped). (and yes, I realize that Peru's MiG-29's also have RVV-AE but the US seems to have ignored that for whatever reason)

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IMO, Brazil needs CAS aircraft & helicopters more than they do fighters, I just don't see any potential air threats around it at this time (unless they're just looking for something to use against airborne smugglers…).

 

This job will be done by the new ALX the figthers are to much expensive to use against airborne smugglers

 

BTW the permission to shoot dow this planes is alredy in USE :D

 

 

I feel that going for more AMX's and getting some Mi-24's on the side would be the best idea.

 

The amx is also an expensive figther....but i agre on the mi-24..but for the chopers Brazil have another program selection in evaluation...

 

Having said that, if they are seriously looking at one of those three fighters then the Su-27 is the best choice. Brazil is a huge country and needs a long-range fighter with powerful radar to effectively police its airspace. Also, while it lacks precision A/G weapons it has the best growth potential of the three (could be upgraded to Su-27SM status in the future).

 

the primary role will be air intercept....no AG capability is need ( AMX can do that preaty well ) and i think it will be an gap ...but if it came with this capability i will like a lot :D

 

Agree with you about the SU-27...but with the M-2000 we can maybe try an rafale acquisition in the future for NAVT and air force

 

The F-16 would be a bargain but along with the mentioned political strings, I seriously doubt the Americans would sell weapons like AMRAAM so its capabilities would be rather limited (especially in the air defense role if they didn't get AMRAAM).

 

The AMRAAM was cleared for Brazil.....BUT i will only beleave when the congress of USA aproval :D

Rodrigo Monteiro

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Agree with you about the SU-27...but with the M-2000 we can maybe try an rafale acquisition in the future for NAVT and air force

 

Yeah, now that I look at it again I can see that the Mirage could actually be a good option as well. And while it might be more expensive right now, its operating costs will certainly be far lower than that of the Su-27 so that could balance things out in the long term.

 

Still, like a lot of other fighter deals I think the final choice will probably depend most on politics over anything else.

 

Thanks for the AMRAAM export info

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Guest ThomasDWeiss

One of the reasons why FAB decided to cancel the FX is that the F-5BR Tiger II upgrade that is about to enter service is more advanced than any of the proposals.

 

The F-5BR will have FIAR Griffo radar, Python 4 and Derby AAM, helmet mounted Python interface, Rafael Litening pods and Israeli designed ECM/IFF plus an advanced cockpit with new HUD and MFD.

 

The AMX fleet is due to go thru a similar upgrade (a $300m contract has been signed) and the new A/AT-29 will have many similar systems and cockpit - so the FAB will have achieved complete fleet commonality.

 

By 2010 FAB with have 45-50 F-5BR, 55+ AMX and 99 A/AT-29 so the next fighter will have to be able to operate with this force, specially have a similar datalink that is being fielded so they are all able to operate with the R-99 fleet of AEW and Intel aircraft.

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One of the reasons why FAB decided to cancel the FX is that the F-5BR Tiger II upgrade that is about to enter service is more advanced than any of the proposals.

 

Just to be clear...any of the used proposal :D

 

FAB ( Brazilian Air Force ) know the F-5BR can fill the gap by some time

 

But i really cant say that...because is preaty hard to compare....

 

Remenber Mirage2000 C ..use the RDI Radar ...and the avaliable info say it is a good Figther/Radar...

 

I think the F-5BR will habe a more MODERN suit but i really dont know if it is bether or not

 

8)

 

The F-5BR will have FIAR Griffo radar, Python 4 and Derby AAM, helmet mounted Python interface, Rafael Litening pods and Israeli designed ECM/IFF plus an advanced cockpit with new HUD and MFD.

 

The AMX fleet is due to go thru a similar upgrade (a $300m contract has been signed) and the new A/AT-29 will have many similar systems and cockpit - so the FAB will have achieved complete fleet commonality.

 

Correct

 

By 2010 FAB with have 45-50 F-5BR, 55+ AMX and 99 A/AT-29 so the next fighter will have to be able to operate with this force, specially have a similar datalink that is being fielded so they are all able to operate with the R-99 fleet of AEW and Intel aircraft.

 

The first plane is in final flying test (avionics, radar etc) and the estimated plan is to add one at each 2 months

Rodrigo Monteiro

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Some info from the Radar and its modes

 

Technical Data Growth

Weight 85 Kg

 

Antenna Array Tailored to the space available

 

Dissipation Less than 1.5 KW

 

Power Consumption 2.0 KVA

 

Cooling Forced Air

 

MTBF (Flight guaranteed) 220 hours

 

Radar Frequency X band

 

PRF Low, Medium, High

 

Digital Pulse Compression

 

Low Peak Power

 

Dual Channel Receiver

 

Guard Channel Fully Processed

 

Extensive Bite For Easy Maintenance

 

Full set of ECCM provisions

 

Compatible with IR/semi-active/active missiles

 

High Power Transmitter

 

IFF interrogator

 

Radar Moding

 

Air-To-Air

 

! Range While Search (Normal Air Mode)

 

! Range While Search (Adaptive Air Mode)

What the heck this mean ADAPTIVE mode :?

 

! SPOT

Any One have any clue about this MODE

 

! Velocity Search

 

! Single Target Track

 

! Dual Target Track

 

! Situation Awareness Mode

 

! Track While Scan

 

! Air Combat

 

Air To Surface

 

! Real Beam Map

 

! Doppler Beam Sharpening

 

! Sea Low/High

! Ground Moving Target Indicator

 

! Ground/Sea Moving Target Track

 

! Sea Single Target Track

 

! Air To Ground Ranging

 

Navigation

 

! Beacon

 

! Weather

 

! Terrain Avoidance

 

 

 

Optional Modes

 

! Raid Assessment

 

! Non Cooperative Target Identification

 

! SAR

 

! Precision Velocity Update

 

Any one can gimme a short explanation about radar modes in RED?

Rodrigo Monteiro

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FX brazilian project

 

I agree with the people in this forum...but dont you think that the JAS Gripen of Sweden its a good option? It can carry a lot of type of weapons of many different countrys and can do the intercpt job very good..... :D p.s: i am brazilian too :roll:

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Re: FX brazilian project

 

I agree with the people in this forum...but dont you think that the JAS Gripen of Sweden its a good option? It can carry a lot of type of weapons of many different countrys and can do the intercpt job very good..... :D p.s: i am brazilian too :roll:

 

IMHO it have shor legs from Brazil...

 

anyway we are not talking about the FX but of the figther to fill the gap in the until the new figther have been chosed

Rodrigo Monteiro

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Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-)

 

Sure it can fill the gap...but it is to much expensive to be an ALTERNATIVE solution :D

 

remember we need at least 15 figther to be used in anapolis and the first bacth of FX was suposed to be only 12 figthers

 

so....there is no way the gripen can be choosed if this was the intention why not just finish teh FX :wink:

 

cya

Rodrigo Monteiro

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Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-)

 

Sure it can fill the gap...but it is to much expensive to be an ALTERNATIVE solution :D

 

remember we need at least 15 figther to be used in anapolis and the first bacth of FX was suposed to be only 12 figthers

 

so....there is no way the gripen can be choosed if this was the intention why not just finish teh FX :wink:

 

cya

 

the expensive part is debatable...

 

Saab is very cooperative about the Gripen... contrary to US, UK and others, they are very open to licensing and local production...

 

considering the knowledge that would be transfered to Brasil to produce the Gripen and the jobs that would create along with the boost it would give to Brasilian know-how in producing a Fourth-Generation aircraft can help downsize the costs...

 

plus even with licensing costs, they would use local raw materiel, which would generate indirect jobs, etc...

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Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-)

 

Sure it can fill the gap...but it is to much expensive to be an ALTERNATIVE solution :D

 

remember we need at least 15 figther to be used in anapolis and the first bacth of FX was suposed to be only 12 figthers

 

so....there is no way the gripen can be choosed if this was the intention why not just finish teh FX :wink:

 

cya

 

the expensive part is debatable...

 

Saab is very cooperative about the Gripen... contrary to US, UK and others, they are very open to licensing and local production...

 

considering the knowledge that would be transfered to Brasil to produce the Gripen and the jobs that would create along with the boost it would give to Brasilian know-how in producing a Fourth-Generation aircraft can help downsize the costs...

 

plus even with licensing costs, they would use local raw materiel, which would generate indirect jobs, etc...

 

i was just about to said it :roll: :wink: :lol:

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