wsoul2k Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Brazil have canceled program FX to equip Air Force with new figthers The aquisition was delayed because of perspective of tecnological evelution anc concept in a few years Until there Brazil will buy used figthers and the choices are F-16-A modernized from Holanda Mirage2000 C From France SU-27 From Russia But i really dont know how is the best choice i really apreciate your commenst Im not sure about the prices..but ins something like F-16 - $ 5.000.000,00 M2K- $ 14.000.000,00 SU-27 $ 10.000.000,00 This figthers will be used for at least 5 years ..while in the background a new process selection will be made taking in consideration the new figthers that will became avaliable in this period. Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 4, 2005 Author Share Posted March 4, 2005 No one ?? :( Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnzacPT Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 if the F-16 gets the MLU to current standards it is surely the best choice... it´s a proven airframe and very versatile... A2A and A2G modes... plenty of spares... the Mirage 2k i don´t know how the support and development is going... but it´s much more expensive than the F-16... the Su-27 may be better than the F-16 but it´s more expensive and lacks A2G capabilty... Just my thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThomasDWeiss Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 The best stop-gap choice would be to lease ex-FAF Mirage 2000 or 2000-5 - because EMBAER would be able to support it due to their link with Dassault, and maybe then order the Rafale in 2010-2012. It is interesting that the Flanker is the Air Force's choice while the Grippen comes 2nd. The reason why the Air Force did not want the 2000-5 was the fact that it plans to replace the F-5BR with the fighter that is chosen to replace the IIIE-BR . and the Air Force clearly does not want to operate a great but at the end of the development-cycle fighter. As for the F-16 Block 50, this would be just an expedient choice that would tie the FAB to the US an leave the depended on the whims of whichever administration is in power, clearly an undesirable choice. Of course if the US offered the F-16I or F-16 Block 60 at very favorable prices, Brazil would order it, but the US would never do that, like when they let the French sell an Aircraft Carrier to Brazil rather that part with one of their old mothballed Forestal Class carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovy Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 F-16-A modernized from Holanda Mirage2000 C From France SU-27 From Russia French 2000 C use the rdi radar which is not cleared for export. BTW, France will only start to retire her mirage 2000C in 2008. A good oportunity would have been the mirage 2000-5 from Qatar, but India has already put an option on them. Asus A7N8X-E (nForce2) + Athlon XP3000 + Geforce 4 ti 4200 (64 MB) + drivers 66.93+ 1 GB ram (dual chanel mode) win 2000 sp4 + direct-X 9c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 4, 2005 Author Share Posted March 4, 2005 The best stop-gap choice would be to lease ex-FAF Mirage 2000 or 2000-5 - because EMBAER would be able to support it due to their link with Dassault, and maybe then order the Rafale in 2010-2012. It is interesting that the Flanker is the Air Force's choice while the Grippen comes 2nd. The reason why the Air Force did not want the 2000-5 was the fact that it plans to replace the F-5BR with the fighter that is chosen to replace the IIIE-BR . and the Air Force clearly does not want to operate a great but at the end of the development-cycle fighter. As for the F-16 Block 50, this would be just an expedient choice that would tie the FAB to the US an leave the depended on the whims of whichever administration is in power, clearly an undesirable choice. Of course if the US offered the F-16I or F-16 Block 60 at very favorable prices, Brazil would order it, but the US would never do that, like when they let the French sell an Aircraft Carrier to Brazil rather that part with one of their old mothballed Forestal Class carriers. Unfortunelly the F-16 in question is the F-16 A 15 or 10 :( remenber it is GAP not the new figther so it will be an old one .. not the one fo the last versions Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 4, 2005 Author Share Posted March 4, 2005 F-16-A modernized from Holanda Mirage2000 C From France SU-27 From Russia French 2000 C use the rdi radar which is not cleared for export. BTW, France will only start to retire her mirage 2000C in 2008. A good oportunity would have been the mirage 2000-5 from Qatar, but India has already put an option on them. the RDY was already in the proposal to the Mirage2000 BR ( an improved version from the M2k-5 from EMBRAER/DASSAULT with some avionics from Rafale include also and other things i cant remenber now ) Kovy...soh o dont see any problems in getting it with the Mirage2000 C Remenber dassault have interests in Brazil ( IE EMBRAER ) It could open doors to an future aquisition of rafales to the NAVY and AIR force Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Wasn't the swedish JAS one of the competitors as well? I could swear I have read something about it in the news here in sweden. ASUS P4T533-C|P4 3.06@3.45|1024Mb Kingston 1066 rambus|ATI 9.... *EDITED* - Listen to Mods!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovy Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 the RDY was already in the proposal to the Mirage2000 BR ( an improved version from the M2k-5 from EMBRAER/DASSAULT with some avionics from Rafale include also and other things i cant remenber now ) Kovy...soh o dont see any problems in getting it with the Mirage2000 C Remenber dassault have interests in Brazil ( IE EMBRAER ) Yes, the RDM (and its various upgraded versions), the RDY and the RDY2 are cleared for export....but not the RDI ... I don't know why, but it is a fact :wink: Now, this fact may change if Brazil shows interrest in used mirage 2000C Asus A7N8X-E (nForce2) + Athlon XP3000 + Geforce 4 ti 4200 (64 MB) + drivers 66.93+ 1 GB ram (dual chanel mode) win 2000 sp4 + direct-X 9c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 4, 2005 Author Share Posted March 4, 2005 Wasn't the swedish JAS one of the competitors as well? I could swear I have read something about it in the news here in sweden. Yes it was Pilgrim. Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysi Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 IMO, Brazil needs CAS aircraft & helicopters more than they do fighters, I just don't see any potential air threats around it at this time (unless they're just looking for something to use against airborne smugglers…). I feel that going for more AMX's and getting some Mi-24's on the side would be the best idea. Having said that, if they are seriously looking at one of those three fighters then the Su-27 is the best choice. Brazil is a huge country and needs a long-range fighter with powerful radar to effectively police its airspace. Also, while it lacks precision A/G weapons it has the best growth potential of the three (could be upgraded to Su-27SM status in the future). The Mirage just seems too pricy. The F-16 would be a bargain but along with the mentioned political strings, I seriously doubt the Americans would sell weapons like AMRAAM so its capabilities would be rather limited (especially in the air defense role if they didn't get AMRAAM). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnzacPT Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 they have sold AMRAAM´s to most of their allies... including Portugal and Egypt (i think).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysi Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 they have sold AMRAAM´s to most of their allies... including Portugal and Egypt (i think).... But not to South America (at least as of the last time I checked). I know Chile was interested in F-16's but only if equipped with AMRAAM, and I'm not sure if this deal went through or not. Anyone know? If it didn't, then I doubt they will sell AMRAAM to that region, at least until Venezuela gets their MiG-29's (which will probably be RVV-AE equipped). (and yes, I realize that Peru's MiG-29's also have RVV-AE but the US seems to have ignored that for whatever reason) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 6, 2005 Author Share Posted March 6, 2005 IMO, Brazil needs CAS aircraft & helicopters more than they do fighters, I just don't see any potential air threats around it at this time (unless they're just looking for something to use against airborne smugglers…). This job will be done by the new ALX the figthers are to much expensive to use against airborne smugglers BTW the permission to shoot dow this planes is alredy in USE :D I feel that going for more AMX's and getting some Mi-24's on the side would be the best idea. The amx is also an expensive figther....but i agre on the mi-24..but for the chopers Brazil have another program selection in evaluation... Having said that, if they are seriously looking at one of those three fighters then the Su-27 is the best choice. Brazil is a huge country and needs a long-range fighter with powerful radar to effectively police its airspace. Also, while it lacks precision A/G weapons it has the best growth potential of the three (could be upgraded to Su-27SM status in the future). the primary role will be air intercept....no AG capability is need ( AMX can do that preaty well ) and i think it will be an gap ...but if it came with this capability i will like a lot :D Agree with you about the SU-27...but with the M-2000 we can maybe try an rafale acquisition in the future for NAVT and air force The F-16 would be a bargain but along with the mentioned political strings, I seriously doubt the Americans would sell weapons like AMRAAM so its capabilities would be rather limited (especially in the air defense role if they didn't get AMRAAM). The AMRAAM was cleared for Brazil.....BUT i will only beleave when the congress of USA aproval :D Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysi Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 Agree with you about the SU-27...but with the M-2000 we can maybe try an rafale acquisition in the future for NAVT and air force Yeah, now that I look at it again I can see that the Mirage could actually be a good option as well. And while it might be more expensive right now, its operating costs will certainly be far lower than that of the Su-27 so that could balance things out in the long term. Still, like a lot of other fighter deals I think the final choice will probably depend most on politics over anything else. Thanks for the AMRAAM export info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThomasDWeiss Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 One of the reasons why FAB decided to cancel the FX is that the F-5BR Tiger II upgrade that is about to enter service is more advanced than any of the proposals. The F-5BR will have FIAR Griffo radar, Python 4 and Derby AAM, helmet mounted Python interface, Rafael Litening pods and Israeli designed ECM/IFF plus an advanced cockpit with new HUD and MFD. The AMX fleet is due to go thru a similar upgrade (a $300m contract has been signed) and the new A/AT-29 will have many similar systems and cockpit - so the FAB will have achieved complete fleet commonality. By 2010 FAB with have 45-50 F-5BR, 55+ AMX and 99 A/AT-29 so the next fighter will have to be able to operate with this force, specially have a similar datalink that is being fielded so they are all able to operate with the R-99 fleet of AEW and Intel aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 One of the reasons why FAB decided to cancel the FX is that the F-5BR Tiger II upgrade that is about to enter service is more advanced than any of the proposals. Just to be clear...any of the used proposal :D FAB ( Brazilian Air Force ) know the F-5BR can fill the gap by some time But i really cant say that...because is preaty hard to compare.... Remenber Mirage2000 C ..use the RDI Radar ...and the avaliable info say it is a good Figther/Radar... I think the F-5BR will habe a more MODERN suit but i really dont know if it is bether or not 8) The F-5BR will have FIAR Griffo radar, Python 4 and Derby AAM, helmet mounted Python interface, Rafael Litening pods and Israeli designed ECM/IFF plus an advanced cockpit with new HUD and MFD. The AMX fleet is due to go thru a similar upgrade (a $300m contract has been signed) and the new A/AT-29 will have many similar systems and cockpit - so the FAB will have achieved complete fleet commonality. Correct By 2010 FAB with have 45-50 F-5BR, 55+ AMX and 99 A/AT-29 so the next fighter will have to be able to operate with this force, specially have a similar datalink that is being fielded so they are all able to operate with the R-99 fleet of AEW and Intel aircraft. The first plane is in final flying test (avionics, radar etc) and the estimated plan is to add one at each 2 months Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 Some info from the Radar and its modes Technical Data Growth Weight 85 Kg Antenna Array Tailored to the space available Dissipation Less than 1.5 KW Power Consumption 2.0 KVA Cooling Forced Air MTBF (Flight guaranteed) 220 hours Radar Frequency X band PRF Low, Medium, High Digital Pulse Compression Low Peak Power Dual Channel Receiver Guard Channel Fully Processed Extensive Bite For Easy Maintenance Full set of ECCM provisions Compatible with IR/semi-active/active missiles High Power Transmitter IFF interrogator Radar Moding Air-To-Air ! Range While Search (Normal Air Mode) ! Range While Search (Adaptive Air Mode) What the heck this mean ADAPTIVE mode :? ! SPOT Any One have any clue about this MODE ! Velocity Search ! Single Target Track ! Dual Target Track ! Situation Awareness Mode ! Track While Scan ! Air Combat Air To Surface ! Real Beam Map ! Doppler Beam Sharpening ! Sea Low/High ! Ground Moving Target Indicator ! Ground/Sea Moving Target Track ! Sea Single Target Track ! Air To Ground Ranging Navigation ! Beacon ! Weather ! Terrain Avoidance Optional Modes ! Raid Assessment ! Non Cooperative Target Identification ! SAR ! Precision Velocity Update Any one can gimme a short explanation about radar modes in RED? Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxcc Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 FX brazilian project I agree with the people in this forum...but dont you think that the JAS Gripen of Sweden its a good option? It can carry a lot of type of weapons of many different countrys and can do the intercpt job very good..... :D p.s: i am brazilian too :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 8, 2005 Author Share Posted March 8, 2005 Re: FX brazilian project I agree with the people in this forum...but dont you think that the JAS Gripen of Sweden its a good option? It can carry a lot of type of weapons of many different countrys and can do the intercpt job very good..... :D p.s: i am brazilian too :roll: IMHO it have shor legs from Brazil... anyway we are not talking about the FX but of the figther to fill the gap in the until the new figther have been chosed Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxcc Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsoul2k Posted March 8, 2005 Author Share Posted March 8, 2005 Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-) Sure it can fill the gap...but it is to much expensive to be an ALTERNATIVE solution :D remember we need at least 15 figther to be used in anapolis and the first bacth of FX was suposed to be only 12 figthers so....there is no way the gripen can be choosed if this was the intention why not just finish teh FX :wink: cya Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnzacPT Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-) Sure it can fill the gap...but it is to much expensive to be an ALTERNATIVE solution :D remember we need at least 15 figther to be used in anapolis and the first bacth of FX was suposed to be only 12 figthers so....there is no way the gripen can be choosed if this was the intention why not just finish teh FX :wink: cya the expensive part is debatable... Saab is very cooperative about the Gripen... contrary to US, UK and others, they are very open to licensing and local production... considering the knowledge that would be transfered to Brasil to produce the Gripen and the jobs that would create along with the boost it would give to Brasilian know-how in producing a Fourth-Generation aircraft can help downsize the costs... plus even with licensing costs, they would use local raw materiel, which would generate indirect jobs, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxcc Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Yeah i know.....but how do u said is just for a few years......the Gripen can hold it ;-) Sure it can fill the gap...but it is to much expensive to be an ALTERNATIVE solution :D remember we need at least 15 figther to be used in anapolis and the first bacth of FX was suposed to be only 12 figthers so....there is no way the gripen can be choosed if this was the intention why not just finish teh FX :wink: cya the expensive part is debatable... Saab is very cooperative about the Gripen... contrary to US, UK and others, they are very open to licensing and local production... considering the knowledge that would be transfered to Brasil to produce the Gripen and the jobs that would create along with the boost it would give to Brasilian know-how in producing a Fourth-Generation aircraft can help downsize the costs... plus even with licensing costs, they would use local raw materiel, which would generate indirect jobs, etc... i was just about to said it :roll: :wink: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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