Advice required. Should I upgrade current pc, or just scrap and start again?

[Cowboy10uk]

Hi all. I built my current pc back in 2018, and while it has been working fine, in 2D at 4k so long as there are NOT too many units around, it’s started to struggle somewhat after the graphical upgrades of the last few patches and VR is pretty much a stutter fest around anything happening on most maps.

Over the last 5 years since it was built, I’ve upgraded the GPU to a 3090 and stuck in a bigger faster 4TB M.2 for my sim drive and swapped from windows 10 to 11, but essentially the heart is the same one installed back in 2018.    
 

My current specs are

 

Corsair Crystal 570X RGB Case

Intel Core i7 8700K s1151 Coff

Asus ROG Maximus X HERO Z370

Corsair Hydro H150i PRO RGB

1000W Corsair HX1000 Platinum

1 x Gigabyte 3090 

4 x 8GB Corsair Vengence DDR4 3200 ( 32gb )

6 x 120 Corsair LL120 RGB PWM Fan

1 x Crucial P3 Plus 4TB PCIe NVMe M.2 2280 SSD ( Sim drive )

1 x SAMSUNG 1TB 970 EVO M.2 ( operating system )

2x 4TB WD WD Black 3.5 HDD ( backup drives )

1 x Asus STRIX SOAR 7.1 Sound ( for jetseat ) 

Windows 11 Home

 

I’m trying to decide whether it’s worth just upgrading the heart of the pc, CPU, MB and Memory, (£1500 ) or just cut my losses and bite the bullet by doing a full new build.

 

The upgrade specs I’m looking at are

Intel Core i9 14900K

ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO

64 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR5

Corsair H100i ELITE

 

My goal is to be able to run DCS and MSFS at a minimum 75fps at max settings in both 2D 4K and VR using the Quest 3.    Looking around it certainly appears that a lot of you with specs similar to the upgrade are managing that, and I want a piece of that.        
 

Very keen to try VR again now the quest 3 is out with the clearer screens , but obviously I want it to run smooth while using reflected simulations campaigns, which sadly turn into a slide show the moment I get jumped by the enemy.

 

MSFS at the mo runs between 35 and 50fps at 4k on ultra settings depending on where I am in the world, BUT I am getting a LOT of micro stuttering and occasionally it does dip to singe digits if landing in a high graphical area.   ( flytampas Las Vegas for instance )
 

DCS sits around the 50 to 60 fps range with nothing going on, down to single digits when running campaigns with lots going on.

 

any advice greatly appreciated.

 

Cowboy10uk

Edited November 11, 2023 by Cowboy10uk

[kksnowbear]

One of those situations where it seems like a tough choice, but really isn't...

You have a decent GPU.  If there's a weak spot in your system, it's most definitely the older 'platform' (that is, the CPU/motherboard/RAM and 'chipset').  Particularly if you intend to do the work yourself, then I'd say replace the platform rather than do a full new build.

I don't care for the term 'bottleneck' because I feel it gives the wrong idea technically speaking; I prefer to look at it in terms of 'mismatch' between GPU and CPU (and thus, 'platform').  I feel the 3090 is over-matched to an 8700k platform, TBH, although you are running 4k.  The Z370 board could  be upgraded with a 9900K to yield perhaps 15-20% CPU performance increase, which would offset the mismatch somewhat - but you don't mention a CPU-only upgrade as among your choices, and a platform upgrade would net a higher improvement anyhow (plus it'll be better matched to a 3090).

The 3090 will migrate nicely to any recent/new platform (Intel or AMD) and will almost certainly perform better on a newer platform than with an 8700k.

The only other major difference in the 'platform' upgrade and a full build is the GPU.  Even *if* you decide the platform upgrade isn't enough, you can always upgrade the GPU later.  One way or the other, correct me if I'm wrong, you're looking at a platform upgrade regardless.  Do the platform first, see how it works out, then do the GPU later**.  Once you upgrade the GPU (which you almost certainly will, sooner or later) then at that point, you have basically done a full build.  Minor things like drives can be updated along the way.

One advantage of this approach is that, invariably, a newer series of GPUs will come along (50-series lol) and at that point, the high-end 40-series prices will be less ridiculous (note I say less ridiculous as opposed to 'reasonable').  Waiting is definitely to your advantage.  Then you can grab a top-end card for a lot less than what they cost today**.

**How much less it costs depends on how much later you wait

One final point, I'd say you have to temper your expectations a bit:  I do firmly believe that no amount of hardware (nor any amount of money spent thereon) is going to completely eliminate stuttering.  The various improvements you read about stuttering are almost entirely subjective, and that's something that should be considered very carefully.  There are issues with the software/game itself that hardware cannot overcome as is, and IMHO it's not likely these issues will be resolved any time soon.

HTH

Edited November 11, 2023 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

I do firmly believe that no amount of hardware (nor any amount of money spent thereon) is going to completely eliminate stuttering.

FWIW I don’t experience any stuttering in 2.8 ST or 2.9 OB MT with the system below. Why that is I have no idea. I run all the large DLC campaign missions such as Reflected’s and large MP scenarios all at max settings. I get a smooth 80-120 fps. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by SharpeXB

[LucShep]

14 hours ago, Cowboy10uk said:

any advice greatly appreciated.

I agree with what @kksnowbear posted (some good advice there).

The i9 9900K (or 9900KS or 9900KF) upgrade could be a mid/short term stop-gap solution, it's a direct replacement in Z370 motherboards (as is your case) with newest BIOS.
Note that they're still in high demand, lots of people are deciding to upgrade their older 8th gen based systems with it - and it overclocks nicely to 5.0+GHz (all-core OC).
I'd only get one from the used market (Ebay, etc) where it can be found around $250.

The thing is, you mention VR and, especially with DCS, that is the harshest form of gamming/simming, for PC hardware, that you'll probably encounter.
The i9 9900K, while still plenty good if using a 2D monitor or TV (at any resolution), doesn't really cut it for VR in DCS at a certain point.
That said, not even the most potent/current hardware can solve all of DCS big optimization issues, especially in VR.....

If VR is your goal, then in your case I'd vote for the CPU + Motherboard + DDR5 RAM upgrade, and keep (re-use) all of the remaining components you have (they're still great).
Then sell that 8700K, motherboard and DDR4 RAM on the used market (Ebay, etc) or to a friend.

In regards to the CPU+motherboard+RAM, I'd change your upgrade specs and go instead for something like this:

• CPU:  Intel Core i7 14700K / KF  (or Intel Core i7 13700K / KF as alternative)
  You definitely don't need the i9 14900K (way too hot, too inneficient), I'd even say to avoid it at any cost.
  The i7 14700K (or the i7 13700K as less expensive alternative) does sim/gaming exactly as good, with less heat and power consumption, and for less money as well.
   
• Motherboard:  ASUS TUF Z790 Gaming PLUS WiFi (DDR5)
  If your motherboard "has to be an ASUS", then let me tell you that you don't need a ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO.
  The TUF Z790 Gaming PLUS WiFi (DDR5 version) is great and does the same job reliably, for half(!) the price.
  Please note - Z790 motherboards support newest Intel 14th gen, but require latest BIOS update for it. There's some new ASUS models not requiring it but are expensive.
   
• Memory (RAM):  64GB (2x 32GB) DDR5 6400 CL32
  64GB (2x 32GB) is very recommended for DCS (it devours memory, as you may have noticed).
  For "speed/latency VS price", DDR5 6400 CL32 is the sweet spot for Intel 13th/14th gen. Similar price to DDR5 6000 CL30 and is better. A couple of examples:
  - https://www.gskill.com/product/165/374/1665644504/F5-6400J3239G32GX2-TZ5RK
  - https://www.gskill.com/product/165/377/1677726067/F5-6400J3239G32GX2-RS5K
  (note: I prefer GSkill memory kits, but other brands should also have it)

Edited November 12, 2023 by LucShep

[LucShep]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

FWIW I don’t experience any stuttering in 2.8 ST or 2.9 OB MT with the system below. Why that is I have no idea. I run all the large DLC campaign missions such as Reflected’s and large MP scenarios all at max settings. I get a smooth 80-120 fps. 

You're not flying in VR... thats a completely different kettle of fish compared to 2D (i.e, with a monitor or TV panel). 
DCS in VR is waaaaaaay more demanding hardware wise, and more problematic optimization wise.

Edited November 11, 2023 by LucShep

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, LucShep said:

You're not flying in VR... thats a completely different kettle of fish compared to 2D (i.e, with a monitor or TV panel). 
DCS is VR is waaaaaaay more demanding hardware wise, and problematic optimization wise.

 

Right. I see reports of stuttering from monitor users too though. Honestly the smart move in DCS is to stay away from VR altogether. It seems like nothing but aggravation. 

[LucShep]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Right. I see reports of stuttering from monitor users too though. Honestly the smart move in DCS is to stay away from VR altogether. It seems like nothing but aggravation. 

The problem is that, if using VR for DCS, things are rendering the entire scene twice, once for each eye.

Not sure how far Vulkan will help in the future - we'll see later, once it's in for DCS.
What is realized is that DLSS is definitely not a decisive solution for VR, because ghosting issues occur, and the P.D. (or the resolution per eye) has to be increased to disguise the heavy blurriness - then losing any gains you'd otherwise obtain with it.

If you consider that DCS is already utterly demanding on a screen (be it 1440P or 4K), now imagine rendering it twice....
Hence the brutality of PC specs overkill you often see with fellow DCS VR users for newer headsets (Pimax Crystal, Varjo Aero, Bigscreen, Quest 3 and Pro, Pico 4, etc). 

Edited November 12, 2023 by LucShep

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, LucShep said:

The problem is that, if using VR for DCS, things are rendering the entire scene twice, once for each eye.

That’s just inherent in what VR is. It’s stereoscopic. I can’t imagine any real solution for that. Add to that the need to run consistent higher frame rates with less tolerance for dips and possibly higher resolutions than 4K 

24 minutes ago, LucShep said:

If you consider that DCS is already utterly demanding on a screen (be it 1440P or 4K)

DCS isn’t that demanding in 2D. In fact it’s probably one of the the least demanding games I have. Last year I was running DCS on a 7-10 year old machine and it was almost the only game I could still run well on that. 
The level of graphics this game has was simply never intended for VR. If you look at VTOL that’s the sort of game that’s meant for VR. Notice how simplistic that is by comparison. But I’m sure it runs better. 

[kksnowbear]

16 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

FWIW I don’t experience any stuttering in 2.8 ST or 2.9 OB MT with the system below. Why that is I have no idea. I run all the large DLC campaign missions such as Reflected’s and large MP scenarios all at max settings. I get a smooth 80-120 fps. 

 

I hear what you're saying (and good for you!).  But I'll stand by my original comment: I do firmly believe that no amount of hardware (nor any amount of money spent thereon) is going to completely eliminate stuttering.  The various improvements you read about stuttering are almost entirely subjective, and that's something that should be considered very carefully.

Just my $0.02 worth, based on decades of experience.  It is what it is.

 

[SharpeXB]

10 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

I hear what you're saying (and good for you!).  But I'll stand by my original comment: I do firmly believe that no amount of hardware (nor any amount of money spent thereon) is going to completely eliminate stuttering.  The various improvements you read about stuttering are almost entirely subjective, and that's something that should be considered very carefully.

Just my $0.02 worth, based on decades of experience.  It is what it is.

 

The idea of just accepting poor performance from a machine that costs what the one below did is a bit ridiculous. It runs DCS and any other game flawlessly, cool and quiet. It’s an Origin PC, they must know how to build these things to work properly. 

Stuttering can’t be inevitable or everyone would encounter it and I can’t imagine they do. 

[kksnowbear]

Look, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this...you have your perspective, I have mine.  I'm glad you're happy with what you have.

Plenty of people report stuttering.  Logically, either we have to accept that everyone who has stutters got it wrong where you somehow got it right...or we have to acknowledge that you don't see it for a reason (the far more likely and logical explanation to me).  Never mind what that reason is, it's just more likely that there is a reason it's not a complaint for you.

(I could almost certainly identify the reason, but there's no practical way to prove it to you, so let's leave it be).  As I said, it's almost entirely subjective.

Since many other people also have high-end machines like yours, it's not that.

I don't buy that everyone who has indicated they have stuttering has a POS machine that runs so poorly it causes stuttering.  Some, maybe.  But no way it's all of them.

BTW I also have a 4090 (albeit with a 5800X3D).  I've been building PCs, professionally, for over 4 decades.  I'm also formally trained as a computerized systems maintenance tech (at several of the best avionics schools in the US Navy, mind you).

I wouldn't dream of handing someone else money to build a machine for me - that's what others pay me for, and no one's had any complaints about the systems I've built (including several right here on this site).  Origin (and other pre-built companies) might be a good choice for some, but they're not by far the only ones who know how to build a PC.

There's nothing wrong with my hardware.  Don't imply there is just because I didn't pay someone a ridiculous sum of money to do what I've been paid to do for 40+ years.  *I* know how to build these things to work properly, thanks.

I'm not 'accepting poor performance'...I just happen to have professional experience with this industry (computers, both hardware and software), and my opinions are based on that experience.

As I said, it is what it is.

Edited November 12, 2023 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

you have your perspective, I have mine.

It’s not really an opinion. It’s just a simple fact that it’s possible to have a PC that performs well. It had better be for what these things cost. The last machine I had prior to this one was from Velocity Micro, it ran for 10 years, getting a CPU upgrade 7 years ago and eventually a 2080Ti. But it was still running DCS perfectly well just last year. Yes it had a few performance challenges at the end of its life but no mystery stuttering. 
Can you imagine telling a customer, sorry no matter what you spend your PC will stutter? You wouldn’t have any more customers. 
So many players run the Open Beta you probably have to consider that with regard to all this trouble. I don’t seem to have any issues with the current 2.9. But I have to imagine that’s a factor. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Cowboy10uk]

Hi all, Thankyou very much for the advice, and sorry that it created some disagreement.    
 

Certainly sounds like the upgrade will be the way forward, I will have a closer look at the specs, and take onboard the advice ref the memory speeds,, ref the MB, yes I know quite likely it’s overkill at the moment.    But I do like the 5 x m.2 slots however I will take a closer look at the MB Lucspec has mentioned above.   Thankyou Lucspec.
 

a massive Thankyou also to kksnowbear.   I really appreciate you taking the time to post such a detailed explanation. 

 

Cowboy10uk

[kksnowbear]

No one said anything about opinion.  I said perspective, because that's what it is.

According to you, the answer to solving stutters is we all have to spend money on (typically overpriced) pre-built machines.  That's absurd to even suggest, and I'm absolutely certain there are a lot of capable builders out there that would agree it's ridiculous.

Factually there are people who do have prebuilts that also have stutters.  Factually there are people who do not have prebuilts who do have stutters.

You're confusing data.  The problem has nothing to do with prebuilt or not, and in fact the issues in DCS I'm referring to have nothing to do with hardware at all.  These issues are well known and are mentioned/discussed from time to time, right here on this very forum.

If you don't see it, there is/are reasons you don't see it.  Simple.

Here's an idea: If your 'solution' is actually capable of fixing the stutters, I am certain there's a line a mile long of people who would be in your debt to explain to them how to fix it.

However, I would submit that they'd all be just as doubtful as I am (and for good reason) because your 'solution' is that everyone should buy a prebuilt from Origin.  Never mind what they have now, never mind how much they spent or how capable their hardware is...it must all be thrown out and replaced with a prebuilt from Origin.

As I said, absurd.

And for the record, I always make a point of discussing limitations like these with my customers.  The correct approach is "No amount of money spent on hardware is going to overcome problems that exist in software"...pretty much exactly what I've said several times.  In fact, I have learned to have this very discussion with clients because of the tendency of laypeople to misdiagnose these issues as hardware problems.  I'll gladly warranty any piece of defective hardware - but I'm not giving out free replacements because software is sometimes garbage, and I've learned to make that clear up front.

And - somehow - in spite of your theory I'd have no more customers - the fact is that the majority of my customers come back a second and even third time over the years.  (And again, this includes some who are DCS players, and members on this very forum.)

In fact, there are relatively few who only come to me once...I do follow up with customers, and there aren't many who had me do a system for them, but then went the prebuilt route for a future build (actually I can't think of any at the moment).  By contrast, there have been several who decided on prebuilts after coming to me initially - always their prerogative - and then came back to me later on to do a new build, typically saying how sorry they were that they went with the prebuilts in the first place.

I'll go a step further: It's such an issue (even outside DCS) that every greenhorn rookie on the internet knows the term 'poorly optimized'.  Do a Google search sometime  

You're not the first person on a forum who asserted that spending money on a overpriced top end machine solved the stutters for them.  Yet there are still reports (and always have been, new ones all the time) of people who actually do have expensive, top-end hardware (yes, even prebuilts) that have the same old performance issues.  Logically, that wouldn't be happening if the expensive/prebuilt systems were what actually solved the problem.

@Cowboy10uk - Glad if it helps.  Good luck.

Edited November 13, 2023 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Cowboy10uk said:

Certainly sounds like the upgrade will be the way forward, I will have a closer look at the specs, and take onboard the advice ref the memory speeds,, ref the MB, yes I know quite likely it’s overkill at the moment.    But I do like the 5 x m.2 slots however I will take a closer look at the MB Lucspec has mentioned above.   Thankyou Lucspec.

No problem, glad if it helps. 

Regardless of the motherboard you end up getting, if the number of M.2 drives is important, then you always have the option of a PCIe expansion card to fit a bunch of them.

For instances, among others, you have the ASUS Hyper M.2 X16 PCIe 4.0 X4, it supports upto 4x NVMe Gen4/Gen3, and sells for about £75.00.
Though I think it does split the lanes for it to work with more than 2 drives. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by LucShep

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

your 'solution' is that everyone should buy a prebuilt from Origin.

Sorry if I come across the wrong way, my intent is not to be a fanboy for a particular vendor or to suggest you don’t have the knowledge that some other company does. Clearly you do. But for many people like me a pre-built machine represents an extremely good value. I don't have the time or knowledge to engage in building a PC or providing my own tech support and doing so would be a fantastic blunder on my part akin to trying to perform dental work on myself That may well be true for a lot of people so steering people away from those probably isn’t the best advice either. 

[kksnowbear]

I don't steer people away from prebuilt machines - at least not irresponsibly so.  I talk to potential customers.  As I mentioned above, the choice is always theirs.  I feel I can offer a (much) better value, and I give specifics when discussing why with people.

You are right, prebuilt is a choice for some (sometimes, the only practical choice)- I think I've acknowledged that.  I don't personally recommend them, for reasons which are well known by competent builders universally.  But I understand it is a choice in some cases.

Prebuilt is a choice, no argument there.  But there are plenty of capable builders out there, fully able to build machines that perform perfectly.

Stutters are still sometimes experienced by owners of both.

[CptBligh]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:16 AM, Cowboy10uk said:

Hi all, Thankyou very much for the advice, and sorry that it created some disagreement.    
 

Certainly sounds like the upgrade will be the way forward, I will have a closer look at the specs, and take onboard the advice ref the memory speeds,, ref the MB, yes I know quite likely it’s overkill at the moment.    But I do like the 5 x m.2 slots however I will take a closer look at the MB Lucspec has mentioned above.   Thankyou Lucspec.
 

a massive Thankyou also to kksnowbear.   I really appreciate you taking the time to post such a detailed explanation. 

 

Cowboy10uk

7800X3D would be the go to CPU especially for MSFS in my opinion.