Let's talk about BBQ Wings

[corvey]

First and foremost, I really like DCS, and I own a bunch of modules, including this new F15E module. I want it to be great and thank you RAZBAM for making it. However, I'm kind of heartbroken over this particular characteristic of the plane from an online integrity-checked server point of view because I like to play on public servers, and most are integrity-checked. The great news is that flying the F15E with immortal on a private server (which I don't like because, well, I like to explode when I hit something and like to be hit) brings the real characteristic feel back to reality, and I love this feeling of flight swooping down with momentum. Anyway...

 
When I speed swoop down, not even touching the flight stick, at 800 knots, my wing will spontaneously combust. After losing the wing, it'll flame forever. I can even gain altitude again and again for another swoop and never lose that second wing, even yanking the stick violently, too. This is the most unrealistic BS I've seen in a while, and I implore you to redo this because not only does it suck, but it also makes the military's F15E look like a piece of cheap trash that can't get anywhere near its rated speed while fully jettisoned.  I mean, I even have F16C AIs gaining on me in flat out top speed while dog fighting and there's nothing I can do because my little bitty ol' wing goes POOF!  I can't maneuver fast enough, fine, I can't outrun, that is lame. Whether this is the developer's intention or an oversight, only time will tell, but I'm here for the long haul to see what happens. Either way, I guess I can live with only flying on a modded server to make this bird fly correctly if need be because I love the eagle.

P.S. The upside-down stall is lame, too. The F15C doesn't do it. As a non-VR and non-trackIR user, flying inverted helps in certain situations. And this? 10 seconds, kill my plane forever, with not even the ability to restart, really? Sorry, but that is really lame.

It's just my opinion; execute me if you want to, but I'd still like to hear yours.

Edited November 17, 2023 by corvey

[Galinette]

Wing damage is triggered, not "anywhere near its rated speed", but 15% above the mach max at altitude.

This means you absolutely can maneuver around the air frame limits without causing any damage.

CptSmiley and SMEs might comment about that limit better than me. The actual damage realism (broken wings, fire) could be debated. But you are fully outside the specified airframe limits, and that's a fact!

The engine fuel starvation under long enough negative G is also realistic, as far as I know. The argument "Yeah but F-15C in DCS doesn't loose engines" isn't elligible... This is an old FC3 module, systems models are simpler.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kercheiz

[Deano87]

782 knots is the airspeed limit. If you’re going above that, you’re asking for damage to happen. I’m not sure what you’re expecting?

[corvey]

If it's a real design flaw in the F15E then so be it, but I'm surprised the F14, F16, A10C and even the F18 which is made by McDonnell Douglas doesn't have that same achilles heel because I can fly all those modules upside down all day long.  It just seems like a cheap unneeded gimmick tacked on.

35 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

The engine fuel starvation under long enough negative G is also realistic, as far as I know. The argument "Yeah but F-15C in DCS doesn't loose engines" isn't elligible... This is an old FC3 module, systems models are simpler.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by corvey

[Galinette]

29 minutes ago, corvey said:

If it's a real design flaw in the F15E then so be it, but I'm surprised the F14, F16, A10C and even the F18 which is made by McDonnell Douglas doesn't have that same achilles heel because I can fly all those modules upside down all day long.  It just seems like a cheap unneeded gimmick tacked on.

 

 

It's not a gimmick, the mini-feeders just before engine fuel pumps don't refill in negative G conditions, and thus can only supply the engine a couple of seconds, depending on fuel flow.

That's actually very common.

Designing a fuel feeding that can sustain negative G indefinitely increases complexity and weight and can be considered unnecessary in most cases. Besides this, staying at negative G in a fighter aircraft has mostly zero benefit and is never done by pilots more than a couple of seconds because it's very uncomfortable and demanding for the body. For pitching down by an important amount, reversed positive G pull is faster, more effective, and more comfortable. Besides airshows, where it's not uncommon, nobody does level inverted flight. 

Now for the F-16, I know it has the capability of sustained negative G.

I don't have the information for the F/A-18, but it really could just be not modeled in DCS.

 What about the tomcat? From NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1, 11-21:

Quote

Zero-g or negative-g flight in excess of 10 seconds in afterburner or 20 seconds in military power or less depletes fuel feed tanks (cell Nos. 3 and 4), causing flameout of both engines.

 

And for the A-10C, I don't have the information either, but it would seem absolutely dumb to have designed the fuel system for sustained negative G given its missions. It's simply not yet modeled in DCS. What you see in the F-15E now is the norm IRL, and the F-16 is an exception.

Now every DCS module has its simplifications, don't consider to perfectly know how a real jet behaves because you know it in DCS. That's true for every module from any developer.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kercheiz

[RaisedByWolves]

I prefer medium buffalo sauce.   Not very creative I know. Washed down with beer.

[corvey]

Ok Ok, I can believe that, Kercheiz.  Reminds me of my weighed weed eater fuel filter in the tank. "I FEEL THE NEED, THE NEED FOR WEED!"   I just tested the F14A since I never fly that one, its upside down all day too.   So after all these years I was bamboozled.     LOL

But the wings, man, the "WINGS!" are a cheesy simulation.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by corvey

[Galinette]

43 minutes ago, corvey said:

Ok Ok, I can believe that, Kercheiz.  Reminds me of my weighed weed eater fuel filter in the tank. "I FEEL THE NEED, THE NEED FOR WEED!"   I just tested the F14A since I never fly that one, its upside down all day too.   So after all these years I was bamboozled.     LOL

But the wings, man, the "WINGS!" are a cheesy simulation.

 

 

Just breaking wings is for sure very simplified, aircraft over speed damage is more complex. There can be destructive oscillations, excessive heating, engine malfunctions or compressor damage...

From a development point of view its not really cheesy, just simple. The goal was to punish people going 15% faster than the envelope and breaking parts is easy in DCS. You deserved to be punished

For instance, with over-G damage, wings are bent and the FM is altered, which required much more work, whereas other modules just break wings in this case.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kercheiz

[corvey]

 

55 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Just breaking wings is for sure very simplified, aircraft over speed damage is more complex. There can be destructive oscillations, excessive heating, engine malfunctions or compressor damage...

From a development point of view its not really cheesy, just simple. The goal was to punish people going 15% faster than the envelope and breaking parts is easy in DCS. You deserved to be punished

For instance, with over-G damage, wings are bent and the FM is altered, which required much more work, whereas other modules just break wings in this case.

 

 

OMG, over-g damage, is that what I'm thinking are random bugs in radar, too?   I need to DISABLE that to weed out and verify the root cause of these unexplained myriad of problems!

IMPLEMENT TOGGLES TO ALL THIS STUFF PUH-LEEEEASE, including wing snapping and fuel starvation. PROBLEM SOLVED ONCE AND FOR ALL!  

 

Don't be misconstrued, I think the RAZBAM has done a great job on the module, there are just a couple things I will pick at in hopes of them getting to tweak/enhance whats there already.  

 

[Galinette]

20 minutes ago, corvey said:

OMG, over-g damage, is that what I'm thinking are random bugs in radar, too?   I need to DISABLE that to weed out and verify the root cause of these unexplained myriad of problems!

You used the word "weed" several times in this thread, this might be the root cause of the "unexplained  myriad of problems" you encountered

[corvey]

5 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

You used the word "weed" several times in this thread, this might be the root cause of the "unexplained  myriad of problems" you encountered

Nah, merely coincidental.    It's stupid stuff like text at the bottom of the MPD screen being cutoff.  Example, attached, just purely a bug.  Makes it  a bitch setting up my bombs

[Notso]

The Swooping at 800 kts exceeds the Dash-1 speed limits.  Since its difficult in DCS to model exact failures that you might see from an overspeed, the wing snapping is the next best thing to punish players for breaking the limits of the jet.  This is not ace combat.  The FM was designed to as closely as possible replicate the real limits of the real jet.  Otherwise players will exploit these areas if they are not punished.

Easy fix:  Don't do that.

No bug, correct as is!

[corvey]

20 minutes ago, Notso said:

 

Ace Combat. LOL  Now that's funny.    Cool.  After I found about the F10 Ghost Eagle earlier this morning, then by all means don't change a thing! 

[Notso]

2 hours ago, corvey said:

Nah, merely coincidental.    It's stupid stuff like text at the bottom of the MPD screen being cutoff.  Example, attached, just purely a bug.  Makes it  a bitch setting up my bombs

Align the INS and your screen won't be cut off by the ATTITUDE caution, Senior Dumas.  Definite skill issue

Edited November 17, 2023 by Notso

[corvey]

You're telling me a HOT plane isn't already aligned and this screen text is being cutoff from INS alignment.  That's what you're saying, CORRECT?  I've been trying to reproduce it to nail the problem but you seem to think it's my error and that's great if true, I'll start doing more realigns if that's the case.  I'm only a casual flyer dude and am by no means an expert for sure.  Thanks

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by corvey

[dorianR666]

10 minutes ago, corvey said:

You're telling me a HOT plane isn't already aligned and this screen text is being cutoff from INS alignment.

AUTO PLT is a different caution than ATTITUDE.

 

2 hours ago, corvey said:

It's stupid stuff like text at the bottom of the MPD screen being cutoff.

11 minutes ago, corvey said:

I've trying to reproduce it to nail the problem but you seem to think it's my error

there is no error, the cut off is caused by the box for cautions appearing. what are you complaining about? what "stupid stuff"?

[corvey]

Now that I think about it, it seems like I remember that issue back in 2019 with the F18, which is around the last I time played that module.

Somebody hand me a joint, I think I'll do better at remembering trivial stuff.  LOL @ Kercheiz

So yeah, for the past couple months, I've gotten back into DCS after being MIA for a few years to let the rest of the modules mature, to deal with life, working, etc... To help out with the 15 Years celebration I bought a few more modules and terrains to keep development going strong. It seems like yesterday playing Blackshark and A10C in around 2010/2011ish for me, fun times.  To my surprise, the F15E finally came out after all these years, and wow, I'm stoked. Those avionics, man, I've been craving those for years! That was a surefire sale for me.  The HRM and TF, great job, a little CPU taxing and could use some CPU optimization tweaking with the threads, but all in all I'm proud of you guys for that job, it is so cool. And now those radar JDAMS, icing on the cake. We just need sprinkles and candles now

Now back to the derailed topic of wings and make it little more SPICY...  The most bummer part about THIS module is, I'll tell ya, I'm forced to fly like I'm flying an eggshell made in China. The MPD/INS failures at a rapid rate are a penalization for the simple joy of making consumers suffer?  THE, to set an example of, WHAT, how cheap American F15E Jets are, made in China now?  This is more like Deliberate Cockpit Sabotage than Digital Combat Simulator to me and not just me, there are others, they're just too chicken (no mudhen pun intended) to comment on it.  

To thoroughly learn something while debugging it must first be defined as an absolute. Take away the secondary failures and BS with toggles, cater to the consumer who wants to train and learn in a certain way by using the real defined functions of the jet. Some people can't help YOU properly test a function of the craft if they're being impeded by failure algorithms. I want to fully become an expert at using the craft before being annoyed with BS tacked on.

While I'm not an expert, just a casual user with many paid modules over the years, I think, in my opinion, as a consumer, I should be able to fly this bird however I want to, whether it's to train and practice all day long, debug game functions for the community, fly ACE COMBAT style -- which is kinda what the foreseeable future is looking like now on modded servers -- or to play in true DCS fashion; not that other F15E initialism. I hope to continue to fire up these virtual jets, take off, and blow some s**t up with the remainder of my life left and whenever I can afford the free time.  This topic is only a placeholder in time to make everything better so in a couple of years WHEN/IF I/WE come back it'll be the best it can be, or not.

And as to the skillless "Senior Dumas" comment coming from a real F15E WSO pilot bashing a common peon in America, well, I think that was Notso smart. It's definitely bias and an uneven playing ground on the forums, just so you know. I hope to randomly see you on the battlefield/in the skies one day to knock you off your hobbie horse,  but oh wait, I guess that won't ever happen because I won't be playing on "integrity checked" DCS servers anymore due to gimped F15Es, shucks!.  It's all good man and humorous in every way.

Keep up the good work Razbam, I hope it turns out better in the coming years.

PEACE !!!

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by corvey