F-4E learning curve

[leonardo_c]

52 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

One thing that will be a lot harder will be Navigation. Basic INS, probably only 3 waypoints to be saved(like in the A4 or even the F14) 

there's tacan and vor, nothing else needed and way more entertaining that "following the magenta line"

good old dead reckoning.

Edited February 8, 2024 by leonardo_c

[Gunfreak]

8 minutes ago, leonardo_c said:

there's tacan and vor, nothing else needed and way more entertaining that "following the magenta line"

good old dead reckoning.

 

Not if any number bigger than 4 confuses you. I can barely remember what 4 preset coms channels I set up myself in the editor 10 minutes ago. What channel was AWACS on again? 3 or 4? was it on UHF or VHF? So expecting me to be able to have several numbers bigger than 4 in my head just doesn't work, I can look at the kneeboard, get a basic 3 digits radio frequency, and from I close the kneeboard to I'm gonna put the numbers in the radio(so like 3 seconds) I will have forgotten the 3 digit frequency. 

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

Not if any number bigger than 4 confuses you. I can barely remember what 4 preset coms channels I set up myself in the editor 10 minutes ago. What channel was AWACS on again? 3 or 4? was it on UHF or VHF? So expecting me to be able to have several numbers bigger than 4 in my head just doesn't work, I can look at the kneeboard, get a basic 3 digits radio frequency, and from I close the kneeboard to I'm gonna put the numbers in the radio(so like 3 seconds) I will have forgotten the 3 digit frequency. 

It’s another point behind why the F-4E will be harder than modern jets.

Managing comms will be tougher, building SA means taking fragmentary radio calls , Radar/RWR plus AWACS inputs and creating a mental picture (no MFD screen to do it for you).

Navigation will be harder (good luck getting back on track to the target if you get jumped by interceptors and debate from your paper map line ), the AoA tone is going off, the RWR is chirping, Jesters chatting, there’s outside comms , and in all this sensory chaos you must still get the F-4 into speed & altitude parameters to deploy weapons over the target (no “death dot” CCIP). Remember- HAL 9000 isn’t there to save you from departing because of a maneuver error during a mission! 

Edited February 8, 2024 by Kalasnkova74

[G.J.S]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

Not if any number bigger than 4 confuses you. I can barely remember what 4 preset coms channels I set up myself in the editor 10 minutes ago. What channel was AWACS on again? 3 or 4? was it on UHF or VHF? So expecting me to be able to have several numbers bigger than 4 in my head just doesn't work, I can look at the kneeboard, get a basic 3 digits radio frequency, and from I close the kneeboard to I'm gonna put the numbers in the radio(so like 3 seconds) I will have forgotten the 3 digit frequency. 

You could go “old Skool” and do it the way it was actually done?

Piece of paper and a pen.

Or go with Heatblur’s own - scribble relevant must need things on your canopy.

The tools are there - some in sim - some real world.

[bfr]

16 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Having flown quite a bit of Sidewinder B dogfights, I can proclaim they are far harder to use than Sidewinder X and helmet.

Turn head, look at plane you want to die. Hit uncage and see it blow up.

In first person shooters you'd be banned for cheating if you had a rifle that could do that.

 

I must admit I got so used to fighting in 9X-equipped jets that it was a pleasant change of pace doing A2A practice in the Strike Eagle to see rear aspect shots with even the 9M miss occasionally (especially if the opponent hadn't depleted their compliment of flares yet).

[Gunfreak]

15 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

You could go “old Skool” and do it the way it was actually done?

Piece of paper and a pen.

Or go with Heatblur’s own - scribble relevant must need things on your canopy.

The tools are there - some in sim - some real world.

Well canopy is the only option as I fly VR so pen and paper ain't possible for me

[leonardo_c]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Not if any number bigger than 4 confuses you. I can barely remember what 4 preset coms channels I set up myself in the editor 10 minutes ago. What channel was AWACS on again? 3 or 4? was it on UHF or VHF? So expecting me to be able to have several numbers bigger than 4 in my head just doesn't work, I can look at the kneeboard, get a basic 3 digits radio frequency, and from I close the kneeboard to I'm gonna put the numbers in the radio(so like 3 seconds) I will have forgotten the 3 digit frequency. 

That's why in all missions I create I always add an F10 menu with "List Radio Frequencies".

I also struggle to remember what preset was what, you can mitigate a bit using standards like "keep #1 for own flight, #2 for awacs, #3 for JTAC, #10 for ATC of departure airport, #11 for alternate, #15 for carrier, if any"

about navigation,

Quote

I concentrate on the detail of my map and compare the map to rivers,
roads and canals below; again / cross-check my map for landmarks.
The target photo on the first SAM site is finally matched to a section
of road near a small canal below.

page 99 https://ia902505.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=/22/items/retrokit-manuals/pc/pc-original.zip&file=Flight of the Intruder (en).pdf

Quote

you must still get the F-4 into speed & altitude parameters to deploy weapons over the target (no “death dot” CCIP).

this will be the most tricky part, from reading the manual there is some automation with LABS (or some similar acronym, lots of new acronyms) but anyway you will be required to do some calculations to understand target altitude and I think also perhaps QFE.

Edited February 8, 2024 by leonardo_c

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 hours ago, G.J.S said:

It may sound ghastly to some, but believe me - it can be enjoyable.

For the same reason playing open-world RPGs where you just follow an arrow on your mini-map is far less enjoyable and immersive than decrypting an entry in a journal that's along the lines of "to the west of a tree that looks to be long dead and forgotten is a rock wall, where when the sun hits noon the rays light up the entry to a cave".

[Zabuzard]

4 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

probably only 3 waypoints to be saved

In fact, the Phantoms computer can only memorize one waypoint (TGT2). You can however also use the numbers currently entered on the panel (TGT1). So you can at any time toggle between two coordinates.

What they usually did was using the memorized TGT2 for the "next waypoint" in their flightplan, manually updating it when they were close ("Leapfrogging"). And using TGT1 for any point of interest, reference like bullseye, or for a quick divert.

[Gunfreak]

15 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

In fact, the Phantoms computer can only memorize one waypoint (TGT2). You can however also use the numbers currently entered on the panel (TGT1). So you can at any time toggle between two coordinates.

What they usually did was using the memorized TGT2 for the "next waypoint" in their flightplan, manually updating it when they were close ("Leapfrogging"). And using TGT1 for any point of interest, reference like bullseye, or for a quick divert.

Is this something super Jester can do? or do I have to do it manually(either myself or tell Jester to do it(I know you can get jester to "move" waypoints in the Tomcat) 

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

For the same reason playing open-world RPGs where you just follow an arrow on your mini-map is far less enjoyable and immersive than decrypting an entry in a journal that's along the lines of "to the west of a tree that looks to be long dead and forgotten is a rock wall, where when the sun hits noon the rays light up the entry to a cave".

Except in RPGs you don't have to remember half a dozen coordinates, and plot them into an analog computer. 
If the mission brief says, fly west until you fly over the Eifel tower then fly north until you hit the English coasts. I could do it. The problem comes when you have a series of longish to very long numbers. 

[Trooper117]

2 hours ago, G.J.S said:

Or go with Heatblur’s own - scribble relevant must need things on your canopy.

That's a good tip... 

[Zabuzard]

Except in RPGs you don't have to remember half a dozen coordinates, and plot them into an analog computer. 
If the mission brief says, fly west until you fly over the Eifel tower then fly north until you hit the English coasts. I could do it. The problem comes when you have a series of longish to very long numbers. 

Jester will be able to leapfrog your flightplan on his own. The details of the interaction will be explained later on the manual.

[Victory205]

6 hours ago, G.J.S said:

You could go “old Skool” and do it the way it was actually done?

Piece of paper and a pen.

Or go with Heatblur’s own - scribble relevant must need things on your canopy.

The tools are there - some in sim - some real world.

I'm with GJS. If all you are doing is madly typing in coordinates and flying following a line, then you're missing all of the fun. That's why I'm so looking forward to the Phantom, it's going to go a long way towards weaning people off of the crutches, and perhaps, changing their mindset into one of a real world pilot. You can't count on the automation or the INS or even the TACAN. 

The dirty little secret that you are missing, is that flying an attack or recce run at low level using time, heading and ground speed is a BLAST!

I'll probably put up a little paper are TARPS in the F14 forum shortly, on where to find how to do this, and some examples and tips. Otherwise, TARPS from stored point to point in a sim will be boring. 

Learning to navigate isn't difficult, and it unshackles you from electronics, which results in confidence of knowing that if it all gets taken down, you can still find your way to the target and get home.

My guess is that I share a lot of the same, fond memories as G.J.S, sitting around a table, telling sea stories while mission planning with my mates.  More later. 

F4 Learning Curve

The F4 is going to be easy to fly for those who know how to fly a regular old airplane. It's easier to land than the F14, it doesn't have the trim changes that the Tomcat has with wing sweep and power inputs, and it has a superior attitude reference in the AJB-7 ADI. You can do a full aerobatic sequence referencing nothing but the ADI. We had a similar instrument, the AJB-3 in the TA-4J, and on a student's first flight in the aircraft, they performed a "squirrel cage" sequence, under the bag, in the back seat. Rolls, loop, half cuban eight, Immelmann, split-S. It's magnificent.

The Phantom is going to be a ton of fun. Change your mindset, embrace basic flight tasks like trimming, which become second nature in mere minutes. The F4 is a very straightforward airplane. Everyone I know who flew it loved it.

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, Victory205 said:

I'm with GJS. If all you are doing is madly typing in coordinates and flying following a line, then you're missing all of the fun. That's why I'm so looking forward to the Phantom, it's going to go a long way towards weaning people off of the crutches, and perhaps, changing their mindset into one of a real world pilot. You can't count on the automation or the INS or even the TACAN. 

The dirty little secret that you are missing, is that flying an attack or recce run at low level using time, heading and ground speed is a BLAST!

I'll probably put up a little paper are TARPS in the F14 forum shortly, on where to find how to do this, and some examples and tips. Otherwise, TARPS from stored point to point in a sim will be boring. 

Learning to navigate isn't difficult, and it unshackles you from electronics, which results in confidence of knowing that if it all gets taken down, you can still find your way to the target and get home.

My guess is that I share a lot of the same, fond memories as G.J.S, sitting around a table, telling sea stories while mission planning with my mates.  More later. 

F4 Learning Curve

The F4 is going to be easy to fly for those who know how to fly a regular old airplane. It's easier to land than the F14, it doesn't have the trim changes that the Tomcat has with wing sweep and power inputs, and it has a superior attitude reference in the AJB-7 ADI. You can do a full aerobatic sequence referencing nothing but the ADI. We had a similar instrument, the AJB-3 in the TA-4J, and on a student's first flight in the aircraft, they performed a "squirrel cage" sequence, under the bag, in the back seat. Rolls, loop, half cuban eight, Immelmann, split-S. It's magnificent.

The Phantom is going to be a ton of fun. Change your mindset, embrace basic flight tasks like trimming, which become second nature in mere minutes. The F4 is a very straightforward airplane. Everyone I know who flew it loved it.

If you don’t know where you are, you are lost. 
 

I used to fail the MFD’s on crews and ask them to point a finger at the airport. 
 

If you are relying on an electronic device to determine your position, you are lost.
 

If you already know your position and are using the electronic device to verify, then you are navigating using all available tools. 

Flying single pilot, you have to run a continuous navigation solution in your head, using some rough dead reckoning procedure backed up by pilotage (looking out the window). 
 

Bearing and distance references are great for folks who can run a mental solution because you can get an instant mental picture from a few words. “20 miles northeast of Shiraz” is instant information for an aware pilot while a grid reference of any sort is an SA killing exercise is frustration. 
 

One of the big holes in DCS is any sort of necessity for real navigation and the resources to make it easy to do. You have use outside software for any sort strip charts and even those seem to have been designed by someone with no real knowledge of how it is actually done. 
 

If the F-4 came with the ability to mark a few waypoints on the F-10 map and input a groundspeed resulting in a set of strip charts on your knee board with heading, distance and ETE, I would be ecstatic. 

[Dragon1-1]

24 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

If you don’t know where you are, you are lost. 

I always know where I am, however, I'm not always certain where the rest of the world is located in relation to me.  Especially when flying a Warbird in the weather. TBH, I never was particularly good at DR, I prefer to use landmarks where possible, which is why NTTR is a little annoying, being a desert with a few rather indistinct mountains. That said, I can use it well enough to at least get me to where I should see a landmark from.

[freehand]

I hit F10.

[SuperKermit]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Victory205:

Learning to navigate isn't difficult, and it unshackles you from electronics, which results in confidence of knowing that if it all gets taken down, you can still find your way to the target and get home.

My guess is that I share a lot of the same, fond memories as G.J.S, sitting around a table, telling sea stories while mission planning with my mates.  More later.

Here is a great USN training video from 1960 about that topic:

Low Level Air Navigation

Edited February 9, 2024 by SuperKermit

[MIghtymoo]

1 hour ago, SuperKermit said:

Here is a great USN training video from 1960 about that topic:

Low Level Air Navigation

 

This was a great tutorial!

Any tips on good application to plan the route as in the video?

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 hours ago, MIghtymoo said:

This was a great tutorial!

Any tips on good application to plan the route as in the video?

Thats one of the big holes in DCS, no simple nav planning tools. CombatFlite does some of this but is certainly not simple nor easy to use. 
 

The ability to use the F10 map to drop a few waypoints and planned speed and auto generate simple kneeboard pages with basic nav data is long overdue. 

Currently, you have to do all planning outside the game and import it by whatever method you choose  

 

[MIghtymoo]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Thats one of the big holes in DCS, no simple nav planning tools. CombatFlite does some of this but is certainly not simple nor easy to use. 
 

The ability to use the F10 map to drop a few waypoints and planned speed and auto generate simple kneeboard pages with basic nav data is long overdue. 

Currently, you have to do all planning outside the game and import it by whatever method you choose  

 

I just tried the DCS Web Viewer in conjunction with Skyvector.

Would that be any good?

 

[MAXsenna]

A challenge that should be relished. Back to basics, radio nav and dead reckoning to cross check INS accuracy. Logging pertinent points along your route (power stations, chimney stacks, dams, tank farms, road intersections, unique features) before lift off to double check that you are where you think you are. 
No longer chasing a symbol on a HUD.
 
It may sound ghastly to some, but believe me - it can be enjoyable.

I want my sextant for the PTO!

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