Ghosting while moving head since last update

[Darcaem]

I'm having a lot of ghosting while moving my head mainly on the ground since the unified version update and last nvidia driver (both were updated at the same time). It only happens on DCS (not on the other "civil sim") and I didn't change anything. The fps shown on the DCS little analysis window are the same as before (I play at around 30-50 fps on the ground with a fairly old rig), but now when I move my head I see a huge effect of ghosting without fps reduction shown on the graphic

My specs:

• i7 9700k
• 64GB dd4
• RTX3070
• 2TB m2
• HP G2

null

What I've tried:

• Reduce graphic settings: even with everything at minimum the ghosting is the same
• Disable DLSS
• Try all antaliasing options
• Set low latency mode to on and ultra (I have it off by default)
• Disable hot plug on controls
• Full screen checkbox checked and unchecked
• Remove all mods
• Rollback to the previous nvidia driver (current version for me is 551.61 from 02/22, I tried rolling back to the previous one
• Verify DCS main install and save games folders were excluded from windows defender
• "Unpark cores"
• Just in case, for the sake of testing anything...

 

What do you suggest? I assume it has to be some problem on my end, maybe some key setting that has been reseted on the update and I have forgotten, since the update seems to have improved performance for anyone else

dcs.log DxDiag.txt

Edited February 24, 2024 by Darcaem

[edmuss]

Your settings are higher than I would run with your hardware, ghosting is typically a result of DLAA (Not specifically DLSS) and the lower you fps the worse it will be.  However if you still get ghosting with DLAA off it's because you're below refresh rate of the headset and there is a frame desync; two options, get the fps above refresh rate or enable reprojection.

[Qcumber]

25 minutes ago, edmuss said:

ghosting is typically a result of DLAA

I think I understand what to are saying but the effect I see with DLSS/DLAA is less ghosting, as you might see with low frame rates or reprojection, but rather a "bleeding" or "stretching" of colour from fast moving aircraft. It appears to be exaggerated with low frame rate and lower resolutions. 

 

[The_Nephilim]

my suggestion is reduce the resolution of the G2 and turn OFF DLAA/DLSS..

[Chief_Biv]

I have a g2 and run it on a 3080 and 12900k. Your settings put more load on your poor GPU than my settings do. You need to get some quicker frames back as your first step as it is likely poor frame rates. I would start by turning off your shadows or turning DLSS to balanced. However you may have poor OpenXR Runtime settings too.

Do you run Motion Reprojection and use the OpenXR Toolkit? If you have Motion Reprojection on, then you must turn off Shaking Reduction as this will cause a bad case of ghosting too.

Edited February 25, 2024 by Chief_Biv

[Darcaem]

Thanks guys

 

I do not use motion reprojection, and do use OpenXR Toolkit with fixed foveated rendering set to preset / quality / wide (I also test with these with no difference)

 

I've follow your suggestions and clearly, as all of you say, this is bound to low frame rates. When I achieve 45 fps the problem disappears. But what have changed in this last version? Why I was able to play with my settings before but not now?

 

In case it rings a bell for any of you, I have noticed that the ghosting only happens with "ground stuff" (buildings, lights, walls when inside a hardened parking spot, etc.) but not with planes passing by either flying nor taxiing on the ground, and only when I move my head. I am using the Free fligh F18 Syria map instant action mission, and a custom one set at night when I start cold on Incirlik. In the instant action mission the other F18 passes by perfectly, but I do have ghosting with buildings on the ground. On my custom mission other hornet turns on its lights and taxi right by me perfectly, but I have ghosting with the airbase lights and shelter's walls

Edited February 25, 2024 by Darcaem

[Darcaem]

Ok, another thing, which I know it sounds absurd...

 

I have realized that when I launch DCS if I don't do anything and just enter a night cold start on Incirlik test mission (I'm using now for testing the M15 part 1 of Cerberus North campaign to be sure no mod nor custom lua code I have writen may be affecting) I get now 57-60 fps (which feels fine for me). But if I exit the mission and go system settings, even if I do not change any value whatsoever, and enter again the same mission, now I get 33-38 fps with ghosting

 

The same is happening with the instant action free flght F18 Syria map. If I start the mission right away after launching DCS, I get around 70fps. If I start the mission after having test the other night test mission. I get 38-43 fps with ghosting

Edited February 25, 2024 by Darcaem

[Brainfreeze]

This can be due to dcs’ poor cpu core management and allocation.  Try Process lasso and for dcs.exe set core affinity to only the p-cores (exclude e-cores).   

[Darcaem]

It turned out to be solved with the change "cpu affinity fix"!! I can finally play again with the same graphic settings I played before, even with high terrain textures, and even in South Atlantic!!

I don't really understand it, but in my case if I alt-tab to the task manager and remove all DCS's cores affinity but core 1, alt-tab to DCS, alt-tab again, and set back affinity to all cores then DCS runs smother than ever

Thanks to all for your pointers and suggestions

[Darcaem]

Meh, I was hoping to be able to play this weekend  finally but changing cpu's affinity does not work anymore, frame times are peaking all over the place, even on the menu screen

[OldFlyer]

I’ve got a 3060ti and I get poor results by running terrain and other textures on high. 

Try reducing textures to medium or low then see how it is and work back up from there.

Your GPU may just not have enough VRAM which is why perhaps the first time you run the mission it’s fine then subsequently not good as the VRAM hasn’t been ‘cleared’.

I’m not a computer guy but read about many similar issues which led me to reducing my textures to where they are now and while it doesn’t look as good, it plays much better now than it did

[Nightdare]

On 2/25/2024 at 12:01 AM, Darcaem said:

 

~

I'm running a lower GPU but higher system specs than you (see sig)

But at least you might be able to disqualify the GPU from your troubles

 

NVidia CP

Try

Power settings "Performance"

Texture Filter quality "High speed"

Thread optimalisation "On" 

 

OpenXR, can't recall exactly. but I believe my custom foveation starts at 80%, and NIS size at 125%, turbo on so no Reprojection

 

These are my DCS settings, and I'm running 25 fps on a very bad day/server, but mostly 35-45+ (I capped DCS at 45fps in OpenXR, but it could max at 65 ingame, just not consistent)

DCS Pixel Density is set to 1.5 btw

 

 

[RafaPolit]

I have the same ghosting, I’ll be following this thread.

[Nedum]

Ghosting is primarily a problem with the number of images the graphics processor can deliver to the screens in the required time.
The faster the objects in the image pass by the users eyes, the more images the graphics processor must deliver to the users eyes in a unit of time (frame time) so that the viewer can still see them clearly.
If too few images are delivered, ghost images occur. The object in the image still "glows" even though it should no longer be there.
The new image, where the object would have disappeared already, could not be replaced in time, which is why an intermediate image of the "old" image is used, and that will "deliver" the "Ghost".

DLAA, DLSS, FSR and TAA use a technique that inherently causes ghosting. This is in the nature by itself.
The higher and more stable the frame rate, the less ghosting occurs with these techniques, as mentioned in other postings, but with those technics there will be always a kind of ghosting.

 

More FPS in the given time = less to no ghosting

Use of upscalers = ghosting (the less FPS, the more the ghosting becomes visible)

Too few FPS + upscaler = even more ghosting.

MR and ASW ill add ghosting to fast moving objects too.

 

An upscaler, if it is not able to deliver the number of frames that would prevent ghosting, will increase the ghosting effect, and MR and ASW can increase this effect on top.

To avoid ghosting as much as possible, the first step is to ensure that the number of images required for smooth perception is guaranteed (Game System Settings), without the need of any kind of software-helper (DLSS, FSR, MultiReprojection or Asynchronus SpaceWarp).
And it should also be clear to everyone that even if there are enough images for a smooth image, an upscaler will always add a kind of ghosting effect to fast moving objects. How visible this is varies from viewer to viewer, but it will be there.

To avoid Ghosting, you should ensure your system can deliver enough pictures for a time frame of 90 Hz (try to get always min. 90 FPS). If you are unable, you will see some kind of Ghosting.

The first stage of ghosting is noticeable as blurring and increases until the reason for the blurring can be clearly perceived as intermediate images (ghosts).
This also explains why we often only notice ghosting in fast-moving objects, even though it is already subliminally present in the entire image.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Nedum

[Darcaem]

Thanks for the new feedback guys!

I did test with all graphic settings set to bare minimum, just to see what happened, and the result was the same (also, before the unified update, playing beta version I could play smoothly with the settings I posted on the first comment)

But I have realized that the problem is not actually the ghosting itself, is that it only happens "sometimes". The first time I launch a mission I can play super-smoothly, even more than in the previous DCS Beta version with the same graphic settings. But, if I exit the mission the frame times start going crazy. If I launch the very same mission, is unplayable. Even on the menus it happens (weirdly, it happens on all menus, mission selection, campaigns, settings... but not on the main screen).

Sometimes after I quit and relaunch DCS it works smoothly the first mission, and sometimes I need to restart the PC. Also, sometimes when on the very same mission I change to a different client aircraft it happens, sometimes I can change without problems.

I've been following some threads on the game performance bug section and I do believe there is something with my computer's setup that is causing troubles with this specific version of DCS

Edit: btw, thanks @Nedum for the detailed explanation

Edited March 13, 2024 by Darcaem

[edmuss]

4 hours ago, Darcaem said:

But I have realized that the problem is not actually the ghosting itself, is that it only happens "sometimes". The first time I launch a mission I can play super-smoothly, even more than in the previous DCS Beta version with the same graphic settings. But, if I exit the mission the frame times start going crazy. If I launch the very same mission, is unplayable. Even on the menus it happens (weirdly, it happens on all menus, mission selection, campaigns, settings... but not on the main screen).

Check the vram usage and budget (expanded performance metrics with right ctrl+pause) when this happens, it sounds symptomatic of overrunning the vram; when it happens the FPS jumps in square steps about 15-10 and the smoothness goes out the window regardless of your FPS.

I suffer from it on certain modules (moreso the hind with it's masses of textures) if I run with high textures enabled; older modules like the A10C have a lower texture load so can run high without an issue.

Also try the 'no sysmem fallback' option in the nvcpl, it stops the GPU driver paging vram to system ram.  Theoretically it should only be for CUDA applications, however the nvidia GPU core architecture is also called CUDA so it might apply across the board?  I have it enabled but can't say for certain that it helps, it certainly doesn't eliminate the issue and it may well be placebo.

[Darcaem]

Check the vram usage and budget (expanded performance metrics with right ctrl+pause) when this happens, it sounds symptomatic of overrunning the vram; when it happens the FPS jumps in square steps about 15-10 and the smoothness goes out the window regardless of your FPS.
I suffer from it on certain modules (moreso the hind with it's masses of textures) if I run with high textures enabled; older modules like the A10C have a lower texture load so can run high without an issue.
Also try the 'no sysmem fallback' option in the nvcpl, it stops the GPU driver paging vram to system ram.  Theoretically it should only be for CUDA applications, however the nvidia GPU core architecture is also called CUDA so it might apply across the board?  I have it enabled but can't say for certain that it helps, it certainly doesn't eliminate the issue and it may well be placebo.

I haven't test it yet, thanks in advance.

But I have also noticed you have low latency set to ultra. Just out of curiosity, do you feel any difference? I did try it and saw none (maybe because I have bigger problems preventing it from having a real impact), and with my little understanding and reading I assumed it was related with controller's input response time, and thus only relevant for shooters and games like that.

Enviado desde mi SM-A346B mediante Tapatalk

[Darcaem]

 Nah, I've just test the Prefer no sysmem fallback option with no change. I have spawn on a Huey hot on an a irfield, everything super-smooth at low level in land, sea and landing on a ship. Then without exiting the mission spawn on a new hot Huey on the very same airfield and frame times went crazy and framerate down to 20-25

In another play session I have checked the VRAM usage. It is clear that is the problem. In the attached screenshots can be seen that when I first spawn on a Huey GPU's VRAM it is almost full, runs smoothly. After some time and an emergency landing VRAM usage has decreased a little but is still at its maximum, it stills runs perfectly smooth. After that I spawn on a F18C and the VRAM usage increases over the maximum and starts using shared memory. Then the problem starts.

 The thing is, after exiting the mission the VRAM seems to not been released. If I exit to the main menu, go to the mission menu again and enter the same mission, in the same Huey client spot that before ( last screenshot), the VRAM usage is over the maximum. Dedicated GPU VRAM usage is the same ~7.5GB, but the shared memory has not been released.

Also, I don't know if this is really important, but I am also attaching a screenshot from other sim where the experience is as smooth as DCS (when it is smooth :P) but it is actually using shared memory (probably unrelated, as GPU VRAM is not maxed out there, probably the GPU shared memory is being used for other stuff)

 

PS: I have a 50 framerate cap, which visually works fine for me

Edited March 15, 2024 by Darcaem

[edmuss]

Yeah, it is only a vague notion that it might do something, certainly no hard and fast change.

For reference, don't rely on the VRAM usage in task manager as that will always show full with DCS (what DCS has allocated), use the expanded performance metrics and that will show you the actual VRAM in use.

[Darcaem]

Yeap, checking the expanded performance it seems VRAM usage might not be the cause of the problems. On the attached screenchots it is seen two different missions with terrible stutters with awful frame times and VRAM usage bellow maximum values Again, first spawn on the first mission works fine with the same exact VRAM usage that the second spawn, or the second time I launch the mission.

[Darcaem]

I have reverted back to 2.9.2, last Open Beta before this last unified update, and it works smoothly again. I am able to restore the pevious higher graphic settings I use to play with before (I have onl kept the 50 frames cap)

With the same graphics settings that in 2.9.3:

Settings textures to High and Terrain textures to High (restoring the graphics settings I use to play with)