Todays dumb question

[Raisuli]

Which might not have an answer...

I had to look at my DCS order history this weekend and realized the very first thing I paid for was the F-18 pre-release.  I have all but, I think, two of the campaigns for the F-18 and probably all but 10 overall.  I've bought a lot of stuff from ED.

I've never flown a campaign.

So, given I at least know which direction to face while sitting in the aircraft, what campaign would all you pros recommend for my first? 

I looked at a 'beginner' F-5 campaign and the first mission started out by flying the boingo departure and picking up bozon to the blotto waypoint and doing something that's probably not legal, even in Nevada.

I'm not a pilot.  I kind of know what a departure and arrival are, but in general when you say 'departure' that just means it's time to leave.  I need a campaign just to teach me the stuff you have to know to fly a campaign...

[Slippa]

I’ve got a few campaigns for the prop stuff.

Only prodded about with them, barely started. I spent ages just learning to fly half sensibly, then tried the weapons.

Every now and then I think I really should have a look. I load one up, start my engines and take off, supposedly to form up then the ai starts to distract me with some silly flying and I either go messing in missions I’ve set up or fly about on a MP server. 

If I ever get through one I’ll let you know. Not so much of a dumb question after all.

[Raisuli]

11 hours ago, Slippa said:

I’ve got a few campaigns for the prop stuff.

Only prodded about with them, barely started. I spent ages just learning to fly half sensibly, then tried the weapons.

Every now and then I think I really should have a look. I load one up, start my engines and take off, supposedly to form up then the ai starts to distract me with some silly flying and I either go messing in missions I’ve set up or fly about on a MP server. 

If I ever get through one I’ll let you know. Not so much of a dumb question after all.

So...we're somehow related?  That sounds like the kind of thing I'd do, assuming the initial brief didn't leave me drooling over the stuff real pilots take for granted.

Then I go back to my home grown training missions and blow something up, or do carrier practice, or A2AR, or just fly formation with an aluminum cloud for forty minutes or an hour.  It's really hard to keep my focus that long, so I try to improve that.  In SA it's hard to look at the lead and not the scenery, in Kola that will be worse.

[Slippa]

Yep, that’s about the size of it .

I’m looking forward to Kola too, scenic trips, ahem, ‘campaigns’ should be good to fly around in.

 

[CBStu]

An alternative to campaigns is single missions from the user files. I fly a lot of these. Some kind of suck so I delete them. Flew one the other day that was fine until I tried to get back on the carrier and the ICLS was not set up. I made it but it was ugly. 

User Files (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

One thing that has helped me is I keep my web browser button visible while flying. When I get to something I don't know how to do I pause DCS and go learn. Chucks Guide is invaluable. There are also a lot of youtube videos available. When setting up a new to me weapon I often go back and forth DCS to guide or youtube. Pausing one, then pausing the other, so I can follow steps one at a time until the weapon is ready. Also, if you get frustrated, get out of the mission and fly one you have figured out and enjoy. I like to learn but this is also supposed to be fun. I have two user misions now that I have flow each 2-3-4 times and still have not succeeded. I will keep trying. Oh a second thing that helps is fast forward. Once I fly a mission and basically see how it goes, when there is a spot that needs 50nm of flying (maybe to the next waypoint) w/ nothing happening, I often fast forward until I am 5-10nm away and then go back to normal speed.  

[Raisuli]

45 minutes ago, CBStu said:

An alternative to campaigns is single missions from the user files. I fly a lot of these. Some kind of suck so I delete them. Flew one the other day that was fine until I tried to get back on the carrier and the ICLS was not set up. I made it but it was ugly. 

User Files (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

One thing that has helped me is I keep my web browser button visible while flying. When I get to something I don't know how to do I pause DCS and go learn. Chucks Guide is invaluable. There are also a lot of youtube videos available. When setting up a new to me weapon I often go back and forth DCS to guide or youtube. Pausing one, then pausing the other, so I can follow steps one at a time until the weapon is ready. Also, if you get frustrated, get out of the mission and fly one you have figured out and enjoy. I like to learn but this is also supposed to be fun. I have two user misions now that I have flow each 2-3-4 times and still have not succeeded. I will keep trying. Oh a second thing that helps is fast forward. Once I fly a mission and basically see how it goes, when there is a spot that needs 50nm of flying (maybe to the next waypoint) w/ nothing happening, I often fast forward until I am 5-10nm away and then go back to normal speed.  

My home-grown missions are all about learning to set up and employ A2G weapons, and I've gotten pretty good at that.  I can even wild-weasel SAMs to a degree.  I used to do BFM guns-only A2A, then I found out a fight against a MiG-21 was an endless two circle until someone ran out of gas and nothing I could find on-line fixed that.  Before they changed the AI I could do a MiG29, but it did vertical loops all day.  Anti-gravity is nice.  GVad the Pilot's videos help, but I almost need one dedicated to whatever I can't seem to do.  Growling Sidewinder still cracks me up when he loses though he does better at hiding the grumpiness, but all he does anymore are mods.

So...campaigns seemed a logical progression, but we're back to the original problem.  If I went through flight rather than that other school (although several of my classmates tried to fly and the Navy tried even harder to cover that up) and had been a military pilot Reflected's would be right up my ally.

[Yoda967]

If you're looking for carrier-based F/A-18 missions, try the Raven One campaigns by Baltic Dragon.

If you don't particularly want to fly from a carrier, then Operation Cerberus North by Chillng is fantastic.

The documentation in Cerberus North is a work of art, with almost 100 pages of supporting docs in addition to a briefing doc for each mission. 

All three campaigns have strong stories, which add immensely to the immersion. 

[Mistermann]

Definitely not a dumb question.

Most campaigns, as I see them, are designed for the experts out there.  They are experiences that only those pilots that've mastered the jet/helo can fully enjoy.  For me, the ability to do AAR and Case III recovery in the Hornet (along with most night missions) were just too much for me to master.  I didn't have the time, patience or talent to learn.  Like you, I'd buy the campaign to support the community and then tell myself I'd learn how to do those things before trying to fly.  Over the years I've collected just about every Hornet campaign released.

What I've never seen for the Hornet is a training campaign (maybe they're out there in the downloads section somewhere...)

Now, I have seen/flown one of these for the Warthog.  Its a masterpiece and teaches you how to fly and begin to fight with the A-10C II.  https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/campaigns/a-10c_ii_iron_flag_part_i_campaign/ (I know, not exactly what you asked).

If you really want to fly campaigns, here are my recommendations.

-  Pick a platform and commit to learning it.  Personally, I did this with the Hornet several years ago and now have the confidence to tackle any situation and fly any Hornet campaign.  It takes a lot of study and practice.  Plus a lot of patience with yourself.  You will get there if you stay committed.  I wish there was a magic answer here.  Lots of youtube "learning".

-  Find a DCS friend (maybe harder than the above advice).  You can fly together and learn from each other while pushing each other to get better.  You don't have to join an online community for this - just host the mission from your local machine for you and your buddy.

-  Maybe seek out an online squadron that specializes in teaching.  This might also open you finding others to befriend.

-  This can be a pain in the backside, but possible.  You could edit campaign missions to give yourself immortality, unlimited fuel, etc. (you have to edit the "mission" object within the .miz file).  I know this is likely considered blasphemy by some, but if it means you can skip AAR or prevent death and eventual rage quitting, why not ... its your DCS, enjoy it how YOU want.  When ED releases the savegame feature this will also help people get through difficult campaign elements.

At the end of the day, I think its all about YOU and how you enjoy this great hobby.  

[Yoda967]

@Raisuli,

@Mistermann puts up some great advice, and I would add that if you're not feeling comfortable in the Hornet yet, make yourself some very simple missions that let you focus on a single task (like AAR or Case I or Case III recoveries).

The simpler your practice, the better. Isolate the task, and until you've achieved consistent success (80% or better), don't try to do it inside a full mission. When folks new to the Hornet ask about how to land on the carrier, I always point them to a fixed runway first and tell them to practice landings in the proper configuration with the runway touchdown markers as their aim point. When they can hit the touchdown markers on centerline every time, they're ready to try a landing on the boat. 

The very first DLC campaign mission I ever flew was the first mission of Groundpounder Sims' FIWOS, which calls for you to approach a SAM site at below 500 feet and execute a pop-up attack. I'm not an F-16 guy...it's a nice jet, but I'm all Navy and the Hornet is my go to. Still, I shacked that Fan Song like a pro. (And then I blew the landing after pressing a bad approach instead of going around.) Point is: just get a campaign from one of the good developers and work your way through. If that's too intimidating (and I get it), then read the first mission briefing, break down what will be expected of you, and create a practice mission for each mission task you expect. 

Just do it. You're as safe as chairs.

[Raisuli]

1 hour ago, Yoda967 said:

@Raisuli,

@Mistermann puts up some great advice, and I would add that if you're not feeling comfortable in the Hornet yet, make yourself some very simple missions that let you focus on a single task (like AAR or Case I or Case III recoveries).

The simpler your practice, the better. Isolate the task, and until you've achieved consistent success (80% or better), don't try to do it inside a full mission. When folks new to the Hornet ask about how to land on the carrier, I always point them to a fixed runway first and tell them to practice landings in the proper configuration with the runway touchdown markers as their aim point. When they can hit the touchdown markers on centerline every time, they're ready to try a landing on the boat. 

The very first DLC campaign mission I ever flew was the first mission of Groundpounder Sims' FIWOS, which calls for you to approach a SAM site at below 500 feet and execute a pop-up attack. I'm not an F-16 guy...it's a nice jet, but I'm all Navy and the Hornet is my go to. Still, I shacked that Fan Song like a pro. (And then I blew the landing after pressing a bad approach instead of going around.) Point is: just get a campaign from one of the good developers and work your way through. If that's too intimidating (and I get it), then read the first mission briefing, break down what will be expected of you, and create a practice mission for each mission task you expect. 

Just do it. You're as safe as chairs.

Comfortable in what way?  I can land it on a boat, refuel, drop two 1000lb JDAMS on two different targets and put 4000 pounds of LGB on a bunker in the same pass, put 8 JSOWs on 8 targets using the TGP  in a single pass, I should probably get better at Mavericks since they seem to sink boats the Harpoons bounce off but I'm pretty good with a Harpoon and a SLAM, not sure I've used the SLAM-ER yet.  SEAD/DEAD is where I go to have fun and I like dancing with SAMs.  Doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to watch flaming wreckage fall through the sky now and then when I get too confident, but it's still fun.  So is coming in at 100 feet, popping up a notch and leaving 8 snake eyes to deal with all the green and red BBs below me, but I really wish the -18 carried CBU-97s...those are a blast.  Literally.

There's a lot I don't know.  I can't do A2A for crap, but I'm pretty good at spotting things on radar and twidgeting AMRAAMs at long range.  BFM?  Hopeless.  PIO?  Just when I'm in a tight, dead on formation the PIO starts; on a good day I can damp it out and carry on, on a bad day...not so much.  I suck at formation landing with a B-1 on a runway that's no wider than the bomber's wingspan.  That wake turbulence is a...pain.

So...yeah.  Campaigns.  Just looking for a place to start since really all I do is either 1v0 or set-piece training and task switching is difficult.  Almost pulled one up yesterday, then did some testing on CVs since I had control issues on the second launch previously.  There's one campaign I've been told is good for beginners; worst that can happen is I embarrass myself.  Can't possibly be worse than the things the LSO tells me.

[CBStu]

One other note. Maybe 1-2 years ago DCS set it up so you can skip a mission in a campaign and go on to the next mission. I have a couple of campaigns that have 2-3 slipped missions. I usually go back later and try to do the skipped ones. Sometimes I have learned something somewhere else and now I can complete the mission. Sometimes I still can't complete it. Oh well, moving on.

[Yoda967]

@Raisuli,

Embarrass yourself? As a Navy instructor, I used to tell my trainees that mistakes are where the learning happens. 

And yeah, I know *you* have been around with DCS enough to be able to handle yourself well, but your post raises questions that a lot of folks new to the sim are asking...some of my answer was directed at them. (And as with any advice, take what you want and disregard the parts that don't feel right to you.)

Grab a campaign and go to it, man. 

[Raisuli]

Navy instructor?  That could be good...or bad...I've met both 

Oddly enough that was why I asked the question.  A lot of people are afraid to admit they don't know where to start, and the learning curve here is pretty steep.  Almost all the content I run into assumes you've already climbed that hill, though, to keep the pros engaged.  Multi-player servers are the worst...part of the reason I don't go there.

[Yoda967]

17 hours ago, Raisuli said:

Navy instructor?  That could be good...or bad...I've met both 

Oddly enough that was why I asked the question.  A lot of people are afraid to admit they don't know where to start, and the learning curve here is pretty steep.  Almost all the content I run into assumes you've already climbed that hill, though, to keep the pros engaged.  Multi-player servers are the worst...part of the reason I don't go there.

I've met both, too. I'd like to think I was one of the good ones. 

I have certainly experienced the feeling of not knowing where to start in DCS. You're absolutely right about the learning curve; I've been a flight simmer since the mid-80s, and it's still pretty steep. As you've discovered, though, you just keep plugging away at stuff as it comes up. 

I am curious about what you mean when you describe a campaign as "for beginners" vs. one "to keep the pros engaged." I imagine you mean more player assists for beginner-level campaigns and more intense tactical situations for pro/varsity-level campaigns. Do I understand that correctly? (Not saying either one is preferable, just asking the question for clarity.)

[Raisuli]

16 hours ago, Yoda967 said:

I've met both, too. I'd like to think I was one of the good ones. 

I have certainly experienced the feeling of not knowing where to start in DCS. You're absolutely right about the learning curve; I've been a flight simmer since the mid-80s, and it's still pretty steep. As you've discovered, though, you just keep plugging away at stuff as it comes up. 

I am curious about what you mean when you describe a campaign as "for beginners" vs. one "to keep the pros engaged." I imagine you mean more player assists for beginner-level campaigns and more intense tactical situations for pro/varsity-level campaigns. Do I understand that correctly? (Not saying either one is preferable, just asking the question for clarity.)

I've answered this three times, all three times the forums kick me out of the reply, sent me back to the 'Missions and Campaigns' group, and deleted my entry.  I should just take the hint!

[PawlaczGMD]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:52 PM, Raisuli said:

Which might not have an answer...

I had to look at my DCS order history this weekend and realized the very first thing I paid for was the F-18 pre-release.  I have all but, I think, two of the campaigns for the F-18 and probably all but 10 overall.  I've bought a lot of stuff from ED.

I've never flown a campaign.

So, given I at least know which direction to face while sitting in the aircraft, what campaign would all you pros recommend for my first? 

I looked at a 'beginner' F-5 campaign and the first mission started out by flying the boingo departure and picking up bozon to the blotto waypoint and doing something that's probably not legal, even in Nevada.

I'm not a pilot.  I kind of know what a departure and arrival are, but in general when you say 'departure' that just means it's time to leave.  I need a campaign just to teach me the stuff you have to know to fly a campaign...

If you have the F-14, Reflected's training campaign, or Fear the Bones, are good for a beginner.

F-5, I would not recommend the campaigns.

For F-18, I have not tried enough to recommend yet. Raven One is probably too technical/realistic by your description.

[Raisuli]

1 hour ago, PawlaczGMD said:

If you have the F-14, Reflected's training campaign, or Fear the Bones, are good for a beginner.

F-5, I would not recommend the campaigns.

For F-18, I have not tried enough to recommend yet. Raven One is probably too technical/realistic by your description.

I think it was the F-18 BFM practice; supposed to engage a few different bandits guns only, killed the F-4, then crickets.  Couldn't find a tanker, or another opponent, flew around a while, got bored, quit.  Haven't tried again, but I probably should.  Probably me not knowing how to trigger the next steps.

[PawlaczGMD]

13 minutes ago, Raisuli said:

I think it was the F-18 BFM practice; supposed to engage a few different bandits guns only, killed the F-4, then crickets.  Couldn't find a tanker, or another opponent, flew around a while, got bored, quit.  Haven't tried again, but I probably should.  Probably me not knowing how to trigger the next steps.

The BFM campaign is much the same for the F-5. You need to come back to waypoint India after each kill and report ready on the radio, check kneeboard.

While this might be good and realistic BFM practice, each mission is almost the same, and if you play the real one, you can spend 20 mins flying just to get killed. I also gave up on the F-5 one, as the AI FM is so out of whack it's jut not fun or realistic at the moment.