not planned Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic refueling options.

[PhantomHans]

Right?!

Now I just want my money back so I can leave and everyone will be happy!

I completely understand that you don't want new players here.  My mistake!

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Right?!

Now I just want my money back so I can leave and everyone will be happy!

I completely understand that you don't want new players here.  My mistake!

How about doing something else in DCS besides AAR? I probably had hundreds of hours in flight sims and DCS before I attempted it. Learn to walk before you try to run. This is a rewarding game if you stick with it but it takes patience. 

[PhantomHans]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How about doing something else in DCS besides AAR? I probably had hundreds of hours in flight sims and DCS before I attempted it. Learn to walk before you try to run. This is a rewarding game if you stick with it but it takes patience. 

There's plenty that has irritated me besides that.  But I think that together with the "we don't need difficulty options, you should just get good" attitude here, was what killed my interest. 

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

There's plenty that has irritated me besides that.  But I think that together with the "we don't need difficulty options, you should just get good" attitude here, was what killed my interest. 

There are plenty of gameplay aids in DCS. You just choose not to use them. 
In any game at some point you have to decide to change yourself to play the game because the game isn’t going to change for you. This attitude in any other game will just end up with the same result. Developing skills is rewarding. Try it you might like it. 

[PhantomHans]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are plenty of gameplay aids in DCS. You just choose not to use them. 

How can you complain about me not using gameplay aids when you come in here and defecate all over my request for a gameplay aid?

[Tippis]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are plenty of gameplay aids in DCS.

…except for aiding with AAR. So there's no coherent, cogent, or rational reason not to implement those as well since that's fully in line with what DCS is supposed to offer.

When the OP comes and asks for gamplay aids for AAR, the only sensible response is “yes, of course — it's strange that we don't have those already.”

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You just choose not to use them. 

No. No such choice exits in this case because no such aids exist for this activity.

Edited April 11 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

33 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

How can you complain about me not using gameplay aids when you come in here and defecate all over my request for a gameplay aid?

There are already aids and workarounds for this. AAR just isn’t an obstacle like you’re making it out to be. 

Edited April 11 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

There are already aids and workarounds for this.

Nope. Objectively false.

[PawlaczGMD]

What else should ED devote dev time to? A bombing aid where physics change, and some partial autopilot takes control of your plane to hit the target? A dogfighting aid where the bullets magically hit the target?  And should there be 3 or 4 stages where you can gradually turn this stuff off? This is ridiculous to expect from a simulator. While it is true that DCS could use more detailed training missions on some concepts, what is asked here is different. AAR is 90% a motor skill, and you just have to practice it until you get good. The theory is quite simple. It is entirely optional and not necessary to enjoy most of the game. There is no reasonable aid that would make sense. How do you think real pilots learn to do it? They practice...

Some people expect to get all the satisfaction of flying a real aircraft in a simulator without putting any work into learning and practice. OP is clearly a new player, and he throws a tantrum because he doesn't immediately master an advanced and optional skill that professional pilots occasionally struggle with IRL. Sorry, the devs will not and should not implement a custom magical physics modification to satisfy your specific arbitrary need. What is the justification for refunding the game, that it's too hard? That the devs will not implement your personal request? Hello ED I want to win every fight and always succeed in all my endeavors, make it happen or I refund, lol.

[Tippis]

15 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

What else should ED devote dev time to? A bombing aid where physics change, and some partial autopilot takes control of your plane to hit the target? A dogfighting aid where the bullets magically hit the target?

What purpose would those serve? (Coincidentally, those can all be made in the game already…).

ED should devote dev time to create the kinds of feature they list in the product description. Features such as “both hardcore realistic and casual gameplay modes and options”, “a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training” and the functionality needed to “hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator.”

15 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

This is ridiculous to expect from a simulator.

Maybe, but again, those things can actually be done already and unlike what the OP is asking for, they cover areas that already have helpers. AAR has none. So it makes a lot of sense to start filling in the game since that's fully to be expected from a game that advertises itself as having exactly that kind of functionality.

15 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

There is no reasonable aid that would make sense

Sure there are. Plenty have been listed. At no point has anyone been able to demonstrate any fault with them. We've had ideas for aids to help learn proper positioning, aids to help learn proper control, aids to help learn sight picture, aids to help learn procedure. All of those make all the sense in the world.

15 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

How do you think real pilots learn to do it?

In simulators where you can layer in the difficulty.

Edited April 11 by Tippis

[PawlaczGMD]

>What purpose would those serve?

What purpose would AAR aids serve? Plenty of people can't dogfight or hit a dumb bomb. The solution is practice, not changing the game physics to make it easier.

>those things can actually be done already

AAR can be done already also.

> Plenty have been listed. At no point has anyone been able to demonstrate any fault with them.

Yes we have. They are not needed, not worth implementing, and would be negative learning instead of helping anyone.

>In simulators where you can layer in the difficulty.

Do you have any source that professional simulators for AAR have such options as changing the flight model or using partial autopilot to "layer the difficulty"? 

[PhantomHans]

18 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

What else should ED devote dev time to? A bombing aid where physics change, and some partial autopilot takes control of your plane to hit the target? A dogfighting aid where the bullets magically hit the target?  And should there be 3 or 4 stages where you can gradually turn this stuff off?

I thought unlimited ammo was the aid for learning to bomb?

And wouldn't you say setting enemy aircraft to Rookie and making yourself Invulnerable with unlimited cannon ammo is the aid to learn air to air gunnery?

 

Neat!

 

Now where's the aid to make the basket bigger?

[Slippa]

Anyone fancy a nice cup of tea?

[PawlaczGMD]

1 minute ago, PhantomHans said:

I thought unlimited ammo was the aid for learning to bomb?

And wouldn't you say setting enemy aircraft to Rookie and making yourself Invulnerable with unlimited cannon ammo is the aid to learn air to air gunnery?

 

Neat!

 

Now where's the aid to make the basket bigger?

Your analogies lack logic. Unlimited fuel is analogous to unlimited ammo. 

Unlimited ammo is trivial to implement, so it can be there as there is little dev time cost.

How is AI skill relevant to anything here? It doesn't change game physics, which is what you want.

You want a bigger basket? This just doesn't make any sense man... A bigger basket would not only look silly and unrealistic, but collide with your plane before you hook up. Just go practice it instead of coming up with this nonsense.

[Exorcet]

15 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

What else should ED devote dev time to?

That's actually a complicated question. If a new feature takes nothing away from the sim it's fair game. Adding Mario Kart banana peels to DCS isn't something I'd care to have, but if I didn't have to use them then they are as good as non existent. No reason to care about of them if you don't like them.

Unfortunately though, ED have limited resources so sometimes choices need to be made on what development work to prioritize. I'd like to see this done with back and forth communication between ED and players We as player have wants while ED knows its own budget and time constraints. To effectively make a realistic list we could ask ED what resources it would take to add a feature while they could let us know what resources are available.

Shouting "no, never add this" to an idea right away is of no help.

15 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

A bombing aid where physics change, and some partial autopilot takes control of your plane to hit the target? A dogfighting aid where the bullets magically hit the target?  And should there be 3 or 4 stages where you can gradually turn this stuff off? This is ridiculous to expect from a simulator.

Well look at that, the feature that is ridiculous to expect in a simulator, was in a simulator. This is from the Jane's USNF manual. Not a DCS level sim for sure, but something that took a good few steps to represent realistic air combat for its time.

Aids fit in perfectly with simulators because simulators allow us to control things that are beyond our control in real life. So all the things you mentioned are totally fine for DCS.

Now if people were asking for these things we'd need to decide how to prioritize them for inclusion as I outlined above. Some things may end up low on the list. That's the nature of finite resources. An outright no however doesn't make sense very often.

24 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Some people expect to get all the satisfaction of flying a real aircraft in a simulator without putting any work into learning and practice.

Maybe. No reason to be upset about it though.

24 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

OP is clearly a new player, and he throws a tantrum because he doesn't immediately master an advanced and optional skill that professional pilots occasionally struggle with IRL.

No there was a perfectly reasonable request for an assist that with met with off topic replies.

25 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Sorry, the devs will not and should not implement a custom magical physics modification to satisfy your specific arbitrary need. What is the justification for refunding the game, that it's too hard? That the devs will not implement your personal request? Hello ED I want to win every fight and always succeed in all my endeavors, make it happen or I refund, lol.

It doesn't seem arbitrary when it's a popular request with a lot of community support. And the reason for wanting a refund was more to do with people denying training aids to new players than anything else.

[PhantomHans]

3 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

 Plenty of people can't dogfight or hit a dumb bomb. The solution is practice, not changing the game physics to make it easier.

We have aids that change the game physics to make it easier...

 

Game flight mode, unlimited quantities of fuel and ammo, never take damage, icons to spot them easier, radio callouts to tell you when to shoot, scalable enemy skill levels...

Hey man seems like there's actually plenty of ways to change the game to make dogfighting and bombing easier. 

 

I'm glad you're an expert on the right way for me to play the game though,  and an expert on what other people do and don't need. 

 

But I think it's a little sad that you can't just be content with not using an aid, you have to prevent others from even having the option.  I'm not here to play virtual fighter pilot.  I'm here to have some fun offline in single player.  But you seem to be against that, and you can't fathom why I would want my money back in this situation?

1 minute ago, Exorcet said:

And the reason for wanting a refund was more to do with people denying training aids to new players than anything else.

Nailed it.

[Tippis]

16 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

What purpose would AAR aids serve?

Helping people learn AAR. Making AAR available to a more casual playstyle and users of varying levels of experience and training.

You didn't answer the question. What purpose would those serve?

16 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

AAR can be done already also.

But creating AAR helpers can't, and that's what was the point of comparison.

16 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

They are not needed, not worth implementing, and would be negative learning instead of helping anyone.

So ED should no longer create any add-ons? After all, they aren't needed either.
By what measure aren't they worth implementing? According to a poll that's apparently popular to quote, a large portion of players would gain something from it, making it worth-while by very definition.
It would create vastly less negative learning compared to players winging it with no help or guidance to teach them to do it properly.

16 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Do you have any source that professional simulators for AAR have such options as changing the flight model or using partial autopilot to "layer the difficulty"?

The specifics aren't actually relevant, and that wasn't the question — now you're just moving the goalposts.
That said, the one I went in certainly could. Otherwise people would have crashed a whole lot more when they tried to land…

 

  

8 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Your analogies lack logic. Unlimited fuel is analogous to unlimited ammo.

it really isn't. The key difference is that while unlimited ammo helps you learn bombing, unlimited fuel has no impact on learning AAR (other than to potentially make it impossible to do at all).

Edited April 11 by Tippis

[PawlaczGMD]

I am against these ideas, because DCS needs core upgrades such as dynamic campaign, AI, damage models, SAM, etc.

If this feature could magically appear for free, I would not care, but this is meaningless, because that's never the case. It would be done instead of something much more important, so I do care. I am also genuinely trying to give what I believe is a much better solution to newer players struggling with these skills, which is to actually practice without training wheels. 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Adding Mario Kart banana peels to DCS isn't something I'd care to have, but if I didn't have to use them then they are as good as non existent

Now that you say that, I would actually prefer no Mario banana peels in a flight simulator, even if they are optional. 

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I am against these ideas, because DCS needs core upgrades such as dynamic campaign, AI, damage models, SAM, etc.

Features that help players of all skill levels, down to full on hand-holding, are also core parts of DCS. The OP is asking for an upgrade to that core.

And the thing about training wheels is that they actually help, if set correctly. Practising without them is good, but that comes after practising with them.

2 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Now that you say that, I would actually prefer no Mario banana peels in a flight simulator, even if they are optional. 

I take it you weren't a fan of (or never experienced) the early days of the F-5 module?

[PawlaczGMD]

>You didn't answer the question. What purpose would those serve?

None, just as AAR aids would serve no purpose. They would just trick new players into learning to do thing wrong. That was my point.

>So ED should no longer create any add-ons?

Again, you point about the definition of "needed" is tedious.

>That said, the one I went in certainly could. Otherwise people would have crashed a whole lot more when they tried to land… 

Sound like you went into some gimmick for the general public, and not something real pilots would practice in. Did you do AAR in it?

> The key difference is that while unlimited ammo helps you learn bombing, unlimited fuel has no impact on learning AAR

Unlimited ammo saves you time, it does not change the way you bomb. Same as unlimited fuel allows you to practice hooking up indefinitely, without running out of fuel.

[PhantomHans]

1 minute ago, Tippis said:

Helping people learn AAR. Making AAR available to a more casual playstyle and users of varying levels of experience and training.

Yup. This.

As I said before my preferred method would be something that could be turned up or down to accommodate various skill levels.  Hopefully eventually I'd get to a point where I did it all myself. 

If ED said "The best we can do is let the AI take control.  Ask to be cleared contact and the AI pilot will fill her up for you." I would also be perfectly happy. 

If it means I can fly the campaigns (that I paid for) in the aircraft (that I paid for) and at least get to watch it happen 1st person and hear Jester deliver his one liners, hey, not exactly what I wanted, but good enough and I would gladly say "hey they did something,  time is money, Yada yadda." And move on.  You can't understand why I would want that?  You can't understand how or why I'd rather do that than to just go "LOL UNLIMITED FUEL" and completely turn off part of the physics for the entire flight?

But no.  Instead of something helpful, a bunch of people told me to try harder.  Yhea.  Thanks.

[PawlaczGMD]

3 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Features that help players of all skill levels, down to full on hand-holding, are also core parts of DCS. The OP is asking for an upgrade to that core.

And the thing about training wheels is that they actually help, if set correctly. Practising without them is good, but that comes after practising with them.

I take it you weren't a fan of (or never experienced) the early days of the F-5 module?

As someone who learned AAR, I believe that these aids as proposed here would not help anyone, and just be negative training.

I am fairly new myself, so I don't know what you're talking about, but yes, it sounds like I would not be a fan of whatever that was

[PhantomHans]

9 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I am against these ideas, because DCS needs core upgrades such as dynamic campaign, AI, damage models, SAM, etc.

I don't want any of those things and we don't need it.

Get better at making missions, we don't need dynamic campaigns go play F4 if you want that.

Damage models are all speculation you can't prove that it's wrong.

My poll says 75% of the community wants fuzzy mirror dice instead of that stuff.

 

That's some sarcasm but tbh that's what most people in here sounded like to me.

Edited April 12 by PhantomHans

[Exorcet]

10 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I am against these ideas, because DCS needs core upgrades such as dynamic campaign, AI, damage models, SAM, etc.

OK, but where does the idea that AAR assists can't coexist with all these other things come from?

If you want a really, really simple example of both coexisting with no negative impact to your list, here it is:

Add DC, AI, damage, SAM's first, then add AAR assists later.

This is why the against argument seems so ridiculous. Wanting something more than something else is absolutely reasonable. Acting like adding a specific feature will shut off other features of the game makes no sense at all. Being completely against something without even considering a workable solution for all sides comes across as being against something for the sake of being against it and nothing else.

 

10 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

If this feature could magically appear for free, I would not care, but this is meaningless, because that's never the case. It would be done instead of something much more important, so I do care.

Based on what though? ED is not a 1 person developer. Work on one project does not mean resources are taken from another. If people were genuinely interested in friendly discussion I'd expect that people would at least make room for an idea instead of trying to shoot it down at every opportunity. Also what if a large portion of people disagree with you? Does that mean your desired features should be barred from the game?

 

10 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I am also genuinely trying to give what I believe is a much better solution to newer players struggling with these skills, which is to actually practice without training wheels.

People that like to speak for other people are the kind of people that probably shouldn't speak for other people.

I think it's fine to give your opinion, but if someone else says that their ways work better for them, well people generally know themselves better than strangers.

Edited April 12 by Exorcet

[PawlaczGMD]

1 minute ago, PhantomHans said:

Yup. This.

As I said before my preferred method would be something that could be turned up or down to accommodate various skill levels.  Hopefully eventually I'd get to a point where I did it all myself. 

If ED said "The best we can do is let the AI take control.  Ask to be cleared contact and the AI pilot will fill her up for you." I would also be perfectly happy. 

If it means I can fly the campaigns (that I paid for) in the aircraft (that I paid for) and at least get to watch it happen 1st person and hear Jester deliver his one liners, hey, not exactly what I wanted, but good enough and I would gladly say "hey they did something,  time is money, Yada yadda." And move on.  You can't understand why I would want that?  You can't understand how or why I'd rather do that than to just go "LOL UNLIMITED FUEL" and completely turn off part of the physics for the entire flight?

But no.  Instead of something helpful, a bunch of people told me to try harder.  Yhea.  Thanks.

OK, so you're just admitting that you don't want a training aid, you want to circumvent learning AAR and just have AI do it for you so that you can continue in a campaign because you can't do a necessary task. So when you can't win some fight, will you also ask for a refund?

BTW, don't all F-14 campaigns have a way to avoid AAR? I think only the training one needs it once. I think it is the last task in that mission, you can just skip it if its' such a big deal.