not planned Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic refueling options.

[Tippis]

10 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Was thinking the same about the twisting...thought I saw it, but you just confirmed it!

Ooh! Can you show me? I want to see it confirmed as well.

[Jackjack171]

1 hour ago, Tippis said:

 

 

 

Also, being all accusatory and looking down your nose at the people who want to see the game improve just screams of elitism, snobbery, failure to teach, and lack of imagination. See how that works? And unlike making the game better and striving towards the kind of hand-holding that is a key feature of the game, ED can't really fix that kind of negativity… Well, mostly not at least.

LMAO no. This community is by far the most anti-newbie I've ever encountered. Every single time someone suggests improvements that would make new players' lives and learning progression easier, they get drowned in abuse and accusations and vitriol.

There is plenty of knowledge and experience out there, but unless you're willing to go through the traditional hazing of old, you are not worthy and need to go somewhere else — that is the one consistent message of naysaying and gatekeeping that they face if they just wander in. Some are lucky enough to come in via established communities, but they get their help there, not from the wider community as a whole. It's also in these smaller communities you find the support for these kinds of features, because they understand what's missing to make it easier to teach those newbies. They have to deal with the gaps in the feature set on a daily basis.

 

We offered help, the OP refused. Not sure where the "look down the nose" part came from, or any of it. I'm far from elite so...but if feelings are involved, it is 100% on that side. This is not an emotions-based debate and I nor anyone here is responsible for how someone else may or may not feel. There was no hostility at any time. If bluntness is seen as hazing, we have a lot more to worry about and that's a topic for elsewhere. As I said, we are here to help but if one doesn't want it then...

[Tippis]

28 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

We offered help, the OP refused. Not sure where the "look down the nose" part came from, or any of it.

There's the whole slew of posts telling the OP what he wants, eg. that he doesn't actually want to play DCS; that he should go elsewhere; that he's wasting his time. Plenty of gatekeeping because he wished for something that has been discussed plenty, with plenty of reasoning why it would do all kinds of good and very little reasons why it would be bad. And yes, there was quite a bit of hostility in all of that. There's always quite a bit of hostility in the opposition to improvements to this part of the game.

The OP asked for a feature. Instead of discussing the pros and cons of that feature, you started feeding him something he didn't ask for. He rejected that offer because it had no bearing on what he asked for.

28 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

If bluntness is seen as hazing, we have a lot more to worry about and that's a topic for elsewhere.

It's not the bluntness that is the hazing — it's the insistence that new players must struggle through the same lack of features, the same anti-learning environment, the same unnecessary impossibility of direction as the old-timers. And that any suggestion that this situation could be improved is derided as “turning DCS into an arcade game” (or some variation thereof).

“The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator” is how ED themselves describe DCS. “Both hardcore realistic and casual gameplay modes and options available” is listed as a key part of the feature set. It is “designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. ” In other words, the goal of the whole damn simulation is to not fall into that trap of tradition, but to improve and make the kind of accommodations to novices that the OP is asking for so that the bad old ways ultimately go away. There's literally no reason to hold up the “I did it the hard way, so you can too” (implied: so you should too… in fact, in some cases it's not even implied, but explicitly stated) as some kind of ideal to maintain, and that adding helper features somehow betrays the core idea of the game. In actuality, adding such features is fully in line with what the game is supposed to be, and lacking them means we still have some ways to go.

Making DCS better by adding helper features does not turn DCS into an arcade game — it turns DCS into what DCS is ultimately meant to be.

Edited April 10 by Tippis

[Jackjack171]

1 minute ago, Tippis said:

There's the whole slew of posts telling the OP what he wants, eg. that he doesn't actually want to play DCS; that he should go elsewhere; that he's wasting his time. Plenty of gatekeeping because he wished for something that has been discussed plenty, with plenty of reasoning why it would do all kinds of good and very little reasons why it would be bad. And yes, there was quite a bit of hostility in all of that. There's always quite a bit of hostility in the opposition to improvements to this part of the game.

It's not the bluntness that is the hazing — it's the insistence that new players must struggle through the same lack of features, the same anti-learning environment, the same unnecessary impossibility of direction as the old-timers. And that any suggestion that this situation could be improved is derided as “turning DCS into an arcade game” (or some variation thereof).

“The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator” is how ED themselves describe DCS. “Both hardcore realistic and casual gameplay modes and options available” is listed as a key part of the feature set. In other words, the goal of the whole damn simulation is to not do that, but to improve and make the kind of accommodations to novices that the OP is asking for so that the bad old ways ultimately go away. There's literally no reason to hold up the “I did it the hard way, so you can too” (implied: so you should too… in fact, in some cases it's not even implied, but explicitly stated) as some kind of ideal to maintain, and that adding helper features somehow betrays the core idea of the game. In actuality, adding such features is fully in line with what the game is supposed to be, and lacking them means we still have some ways to go.

Making DCS better by adding helper features does not turn DCS into an arcade game — it turns DCS into what DCS is ultimately meant to be.

He doesn't want help and plenty of that ilk don't. OP stated that himself! The OP also said he wanted to go to WT, and I agreed with him. Pretty cut and dried.



 

 

[Tippis]

Just now, Jackjack171 said:

He doesn't want help and plenty of that ilk don't.

And there you go. “That ilk.” That's what I'm talking about.

He wanted help. It was just very clear from the start that it wasn't the kind he was then persistently offered.
So of course he rejected the type of help he didn't want — that's why asked for a different kind, after all.

1 minute ago, Jackjack171 said:

The OP also said he wanted to go to WT

Now go back and watch the chronology of that exchange. Note who brought it up and in what context…

[freehand]

So he wanted people to help and be friendly below is part of his first post:

" Although everyone else here might be a real true ace pilot naval aviator blocked from becoming the next Maverick only by, you know, not actually flying anything, I am not skilled enough, or patient enough, to take on air to air refueling without blowing the tanker out of the sky."

& here is his footer "(Something bragging about my system specs or DCS fantasy flying ability belongs here)"

& he expects friendly help please......   

[PhantomHans]

7 minutes ago, freehand said:

So he wanted people to help and be friendly below is part of his first post:

" Although everyone else here might be a real true ace pilot naval aviator blocked from becoming the next Maverick only by, you know, not actually flying anything, I am not skilled enough, or patient enough, to take on air to air refueling without blowing the tanker out of the sky."

& here is his footer "(Something bragging about my system specs or DCS fantasy flying ability belongs here)"

& he expects friendly help please......   

I would be glad to accept a full refund, leave, and never come back again.  Please.

46 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

The OP also said he wanted to go to WT, and I agreed with him. Pretty cut and dried.



 

 

Yes please!
 

Someone from ED please reach out to me.  I will gladly take a full refund so I can leave and go play WT instead!

1 hour ago, Tippis said:

“The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator” is how ED themselves describe DCS.

 

After seeing how people here are, if this is what DCS will turn me into, ED can hand hold me into another game please.  I spent a few hundred dollars on different modules and I just want to undo that.

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, freehand said:

So he wanted people to help and be friendly below is part of his first post:

" Although everyone else here might be a real true ace pilot naval aviator blocked from becoming the next Maverick only by, you know, not actually flying anything, I am not skilled enough, or patient enough, to take on air to air refueling without blowing the tanker out of the sky."

& here is his footer "(Something bragging about my system specs or DCS fantasy flying ability belongs here)"

& he expects friendly help please......   

Yes. He wanted help. In the the very next sentence:
“it's an area I would like some assistance with until I'm able to take it myself. ”

He is quite literally asking for help. He was asking for help of a kind that is distinctly missing from the game. He was even self-aware and self-deprecating enough to understand that it may be a niche need. But what he didn't need and wasn't asking for is what the game already offers, and that was the only thing suggested as help — the very thing that made him ask for this other kind of help to begin with.

Could you object to his tone? Sure. But that doesn't take away from the simple fact that he asked for help in the ofrm of a feature, and was only offered help in the form of the frustration he had said from the start the he wasn't asking for. Irrespective of the initial tone, though, is it any surprising that frustration set in when everyone started giving him “help” of the exact type he didn't want from the get go? When he's effectively told “the thing you want is bad, do the thing you don't want or get out”?

[freehand]

8 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

I would be glad to accept a full refund, leave, and never come back again.  Please.

Yes please!
 

Someone from ED please reach out to me.  I will gladly take a full refund so I can leave and go play WT instead!

After seeing how people here are, if this is what DCS will turn me into, ED can hand hold me into another game please.  I spent a few hundred dollars on different modules and I just want to undo that.

No need to leave just chill the refuel question is a very touchy subject for some.

No one in history has ever received a refund from what I know of but I maybe wrong.

[Tippis]

I have some vague recollection that they issued refunds in relation to some early and particularly botched EA release, but yeah, outside of Steam and their usual refund window, you're not going to have much luck with that.

[freehand]

On another note I do not like this kind of thread when some one feels alienated I despise any form aggression towards new users so hope you find what you are looking for.

[Oceandar]

It's bit hard for some people maybe because it needs improvement from ED and make it more realistic ? The other sim that can't be named did it and for me, now it's much easier refueling than before.

To OP don't give up trying. I was like you before. You need to be patient. Every time you feel frustrated just stop and try it another time. I've been playing ED sim since Flanker era. Believe it or not, I was only able to do air refueling after I flied DCS and it's not even smooth.....connect......disconnet......connect.....disconnet lol.
Keep trying and be patient, you'll get there

Good luck

[PhantomHans]

1 hour ago, Tippis said:

is it any surprising that frustration set in when everyone started giving him “help” of the exact type he didn't want from the get go? When he's effectively told “the thing you want is bad, do the thing you don't want or get out”?

That's why I have suddenly gone sour to DCS, especially when I was perfectly happy with a modded install of SFP2.

[Jackjack171]

1 hour ago, Oceandar said:

It's bit hard for some people maybe because it needs improvement from ED and make it more realistic ? The other sim that can't be named did it and for me, now it's much easier refueling than before.

To OP don't give up trying. I was like you before. You need to be patient. Every time you feel frustrated just stop and try it another time. I've been playing ED sim since Flanker era. Believe it or not, I was only able to do air refueling after I flied DCS and it's not even smooth.....connect......disconnet......connect.....disconnet lol.
Keep trying and be patient, you'll get there

Good luck

That advice and then some was given to him earlier in this thread. He chose to check out anyway. It's all good!

[NIGHTHAWK1]

PhantomHans, don't judge all of us by the few rude posters on this thread.  There are some here that are willing to help.  But let me make a kind suggestion (and I'm not saying go away), perhaps try Falcon BMS.  It has gotten really good over the 25 years it has been around, they have a new terrain engine coming, and that community is much more friendly and helpful, they are all volunteers and not so snobbish as many are here.  I quite another sim because they kept calling it a "engineering" and yet it was just a sim.

[Jackjack171]

3 minutes ago, NIGHTHAWK1 said:

PhantomHans, don't judge all of us by the few rude posters on this thread.  There are some here that are willing to help.  But let me make a kind suggestion (and I'm not saying go away), perhaps try Falcon BMS.  It has gotten really good over the 25 years it has been around, they have a new terrain engine coming, and that community is much more friendly and helpful, they are all volunteers and not so snobbish as many are here.  I quite another sim because they kept calling it a "engineering" and yet it was just a sim.

No one was rude at any time...normally I would pipe down, but the OP is no victim. He was offered a plethora of advice. Thanks for welcoming him to your community. That's awesome.

[PhantomHans]

12 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

He was offered a plethora of advice.

If I had wished for advice I probably would have been thrilled.

[Furiz]

If you were dedicated to practice AAR like you are dedicated to beg ED to change the game for you you would have done it by now

[PhantomHans]

Just now, Furiz said:

If you were dedicated to practice AAR like you are dedicated to beg ED to change the game for you you would have done it by now

If you'd set your mind to programming the requested feature rather than being a gatekeeping nag, it would be done by now.

[Furiz]

1 minute ago, PhantomHans said:

If you'd set your mind to programming the requested feature rather than being a gatekeeping nag, it would be done by now.

Hey I actually do programming for a hobby

[PhantomHans]

Just now, Furiz said:

Hey I actually do programming for a hobby

Hey look there you go!  A chance to do something useful!

[Furiz]

8 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Hey look there you go!  A chance to do something useful!

Gonna AAR while I chat with you

[PhantomHans]

1 hour ago, Furiz said:

Gonna AAR while I chat with you

If anyone from Eagle Dynamics would like to take this opportunity to stop by, I'm ready, willing, and eager to take a full refund and never visit your lovely community or game ever again.

Clearly it is not a product intended for such horrible novice arcade players as myself and we aren't welcome here with our fool ideas to support new and unskilled WarThunder pilots.  I can't imagine why I'd want to be part of this when I can cancel my pre-order for the Heatblur F-4 and buy WT instead.  Clearly more fitting of my low skill level.

[PawlaczGMD]

This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen on this forum . The request itself is maybe reasonable in itself, but OP's logic, attitude, and unwillingness to take good advice that solves the fundamental problem is not. The arguments just don't make any sense, it's difficult to be less "toxic" when faced with such nonsense.

[SharpeXB]

It’s cringeworthy to see someone with no sense of shame whatsoever