investigating Retarded bombs hitting short at low altitudes

[jubuttib]

After a failed strike mission I made a quick test mission to see why our bombs (tested both SnakeEyes and ballutes) weren't hitting their targets, and saw that they were landing well short.

At low altitudes, where I want to be when making these strikes, the last bomb dropped hit roughly over the targeted spot, when the targeted spot is supposed to be the center of the stick.

At higher altitudes it was closer, but even at 500-600 feet the center of the stick was well before the intended aiming point. The reason for why the impact point changes seems to be related to the CCIP pipper not actually being "on the ground", but somewhat above it, aiming at a spot in the air. So when you come in low, the point targeted ends up being much closer to you.

As you fly over the target, you can see that the marker that's supposed to stay on where you dropped doesn't stay on the target you were aiming at, instead it's clearly closer. This happens both with and without active lasing using TGP, as well, there's no effect on accuracy. The targeting point was set near the BRT in the center of the circle.

Included are some images, videos and tracks from my testing.

 

Tracks.zip

Edited April 16 by jubuttib

[Lord Vader]

Hi @jubuttib

I checked your tracks and can somehow observe what you are describing. 

One one side, we are reviewing the CCIP/CCRP distribution in ripple settings on the Viper, but I think your issue is mostly related to a parallax error.

I tested a couple of times and noticed you aim your pipper in quite a low angle, you'd need a bit higher angle to correctly point closer to the diamond (SPI) and avoid that parallax error.

I took over and did just that, slightly higher in altitude, and was quite successful in hitting the targets, having the painted circle as center.

 

[jubuttib]

4 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

I took over and did just that, slightly higher in altitude, and was quite successful in hitting the targets, having the painted circle as center.

How much is "slightly" here? I tested up to 600-700 feet in radar altitude and was still hitting a bit short, circle was near the 2/3 point of the stick. Being higher up does help, but the point of these weapons is the ability to be low down, surely?

EDIT: I also hear you about parallax, but the existence of parallax would to me suggest that the target isn't being placed where the pipper is pointing, even when using the TGP and actively lasing for distance confirms that the center of the circle was the thing being aimed at.

 

Edited April 17 by jubuttib

[Lord Vader]

Not too high, just enough to clearly see the center point and aim correctly at about 45º or so. If I aim sideways as you did, I will always be at risk of missing. I think it's a matter of practice, really.

As the acronym implies, the CCIP piper is showing a constantly computed impact point, until you press the button. When you do, it will hit what is aiming at that precise point. Note that as you reach the target zone it's constantly calculating range, altitude, speed, etc, hence you see it "jump" around. Of course it's prone to parallax.

If you want a fixed point to drop the bombs with precision, it's better to choose CCRP or DTOS

[jubuttib]

Testing some of the other planes now:

F/A-18C works differently in that it STARTS the stick where the CCIP pipper is, but the first bomb lands where I'm aiming. Side note: The ballute retarded bombs slow down so fast, that ~500 feet above ground the pipper is below the HUD, so I'd argue these should be dropped lower than that.

JF-17 same thing, starts the stick where the pipper is, but hits where aimed.

F-15E uses the center-of-stick method like the F-16C, and works perfectly well at 100 feet.

Mirage 2000C uses start-of-stick, and hits accurately.

EDIT: Also tested flying the F-16C in slow motion at very low altitude, immediately after pressing pickle diving down and to the side to better see where the "designated" point ends up being, and it's clearly an above ground point, very close to the plane, even when providing laser ranging that should put the spot at the correct distance.

It puts the aiming spot in the air regardless of what altitude you are at, but obviously at higher altitudes it matches up better with the intended aiming point.

Edited April 17 by jubuttib

[Lord Vader]

I can't say much about third party aircraft, as you may realise.

Regarding the Viper and Hornet, multiple bomb release logic may be inconsistent at this point. We are looking into that already. But thanks for bringing that up.

[jubuttib]

Yup, the Hornet was the "biggie", and the center-of-stick vs. start-of-stick logic could well be an air force vs. navy thing, the important point though was that the Hornet hits where aimed even at low altitudes.

And the 3rd party planes aren't your business, but at least they're there to show that no-one else is modeling their CCIP systems in such a way that at low altitudes the impact point is closer than where the pipper appears to be.

I'll test the A-10A and A-10C too just in case.

EDIT: OK I now tested the A-10A, A-10C and Su-25T too, none seem to have this issue, it looks like it's just the F-16C.

Also as a sidenote w.r.t. the mission I made to test this: I have the BTR-80s in the mission set to the following actions:
1. Hold

2. ROE = WEAPON HOLD

3. Disperse under fire = off

4. Engage air weapons = off

5. Interception rage = 0

6. ALARM STATE = GREEN state

7. Restrict targets = ENGAGE GROUND UNIT ONLY

Yet they still shoot at me when I come in, and disperse after the bombs hit. How in the everloving heck do I get them to STOP SHOOTING and dispersing?

Edited April 18 by jubuttib

[TobiasA]

Am 17.4.2024 um 09:45 schrieb Lord Vader:

Hi @jubuttib

I checked your tracks and can somehow observe what you are describing. 

One one side, we are reviewing the CCIP/CCRP distribution in ripple settings on the Viper, but I think your issue is mostly related to a parallax error.

I tested a couple of times and noticed you aim your pipper in quite a low angle, you'd need a bit higher angle to correctly point closer to the diamond (SPI) and avoid that parallax error.

I took over and did just that, slightly higher in altitude, and was quite successful in hitting the targets, having the painted circle as center.

 

Post- designate has been buggy for a long time now. It is worse for some bombs (CBU-97) and less bad for others (Mk-84). It also gets worse if you pull out of a dive after designation. 

They will go anywhere along the bomb fall line.

CCRP will work just fine, but CCIP is not usable right now in most cases because the post designate does not work as it should.