Pugachev's Cobra in a MiG-29?

[Horns]

There are all sorts of reasons what I read might be inaccurate, but I came across a claim that the Cobra maneuver can be executed in a MiG-29. Anyone know if this is true, and if so, any clue yet whether the FF MiG-29 will be capable of it?

[303_Kermit]

11 minutes ago, Horns said:

There are all sorts of reasons what I read might be inaccurate, but I came across a claim that the Cobra maneuver can be executed in a MiG-29. Anyone know if this is true, and if so, any clue yet whether the FF MiG-29 will be capable of it?

You have to turn off momentarly battery while in flight, and turn it on again. CAS failure appears and Cobra is possible.

PS. It's not "Pugachev's cobra" - First plane who performed it was actually J35 Draaken , and swedish pilots performed it first. over 20 years before MiG-29. Pugachev probably was by that time small child - in best case.

 

Edited May 2, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[Horns]

6 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

You have to turn off momentarly battery while in flight, and turn it on again. CAS failure appears and Cobra is possible.

PS. It's not "Pugachev's cobra" - First plane who performed it was actually J35 Draaken , and swedish pilots performed it first. over 20 years before MiG-29. Pugachev probably was by that time small child - in best case.

 

 

Much appreciated! I had heard that Pugachev was the guy who brought it to prominence rather than the pioneer, but I had no idea someone had done it in a Draaken. One more reason we should have the J-35 in DCS.

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, Horns said:

Much appreciated! I had heard that Pugachev was the guy who brought it to prominence rather than the pioneer, but I had no idea someone had done it in a Draaken. One more reason we should have the J-35 in DCS.

I don’t really consider what J-35 does a Cobra. What you see is a special stall that happens when you give a little aileron with a lot of elevator. It causes this stall and if not recovered from quickly will cause an unrecoverable deep stall. The video you see is two seaters because this is only done in training so that new pilots can understand how this stall happens and how to recover 

At no point do I think a J-35 pilot ever said: let me do a Cobra maneuver as a acrobatic move or a combat move to get a missile solution 

With MiG-29, pressing AP off for 3 seconds will disconnect damper. Thus You can do high AOA, but it is debatable if it is a “cobra” or not. Or even of Pugachev.

There is a story that MiG-29 development team had been doing these high AOA excursions, Pugachev saw this. Then applied it to Su-27 which was the first one capable of 90-110 degree AOA. You will never reach that high AOA in DCS or likely real life with a MiG-29. I think with MiG-29, you will not really get higher then 45-60 degrees unless you go so slow you incorporate a tail slide into it 

Edited May 2, 2024 by AeriaGloria

[Horns]

57 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

I don’t really consider what J-35 does a Cobra. What you see is a special stall that happens when you give a little aileron with a lot of elevator. It causes this stall and if not recovered from quickly will cause an unrecoverable deep stall. The video you see is two seaters because this is only done in training so that new pilots can understand how this stall happens and how to recover 

At no point do I think a J-35 pilot ever said: let me do a Cobra maneuver as a acrobatic move or a combat move to get a missile solution 

With MiG-29, pressing AP off for 3 seconds will disconnect damper. The. You can do high AOA, but it is debatable if it is a “cobra” or not. Or even of Pugachev.

There is a story that MiG-29 development team had been doing these high AOA excursions, Pugachev saw this. Then applied it to Su-27 which was the first one capable of 90-110 degree AOA. You will never reach that high AOA in DCS or likely real life with a MiG-29. I think with MiG-29, you will not really get higher then 45-60 degrees unless you go so slow you incorporate a tail slide into it 

Understood, thanks for the additional background. It looked to me (admittedly, I didn't really study it) like some J35s in the video reached 90 degrees or more AOA, I understood the move as being pointing the nose perpendicular to one's velocity vector, so I agree that if the -29 can't get beyond 60 degrees that's not really the Cobra. That said, I'm sure I'm going to kill myself a whole bunch of times trying to get there.

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

At no point do I think a J-35 pilot ever said: let me do a Cobra maneuver as a acrobatic move or a combat move to get a missile solution 

I think they did occasionally show this off at airshows, but this is not very practical as a combat move. Neither is the proper Cobra, TBH. Its main use is to move the control zone a little further out, which makes you harder to hit with a gun, and the second is a risky (but effective, if you time it right) way of exploiting the bandit's excessive closure to make him overshoot, Top Gun style. You probably could use the Draken's "super-stall" for that, but that'd be very risky, because if you bungle it, you'll end up in deep stall.

The only way Cobra could come up in a missile engagement is if you found yourself needing to push the gimbal limits with a HOBS missile (and I wouldn't do that because kinematics of such a shot would be inevitably terrible). The J-35 does not have anything like that, and trying to point your nose during this kind of maneuver would likely end badly.

[F-2]

I understand the base fulcrum needs to be in a slight climb and it’s cobra is a bit rougher.

 

The mig-29k can do a cobra

 

at 2:22

  

 

Edited May 3, 2024 by F-2

[Horns]

4 hours ago, F-2 said:

I understand the base fulcrum needs to be in a slight climb and it’s cobra is a bit rougher.

 

The mig-29k can do a cobra

 

at 2:22

  

 

 

Cheers, good to see the -29 doing it

[Ironhand]

11 hours ago, F-2 said:

 

 

The mig-29k can do a cobra

 

at 2:22

  

I guess you could call it that but, with the pitch angle he started from (due to climbing), the nose only pitched up an additional 45-50 degrees or so.

 

Edited May 3, 2024 by Ironhand

[AeriaGloria]

In addition, MiG-29K is FBW and is more unstable then MiG-29 9.12 

[303_Kermit]

On 5/2/2024 at 8:56 PM, AeriaGloria said:

I don’t really consider what J-35 does a Cobra. What you see is a special stall that happens when you give a little aileron with a lot of elevator. It causes this stall and if not recovered from quickly will cause an unrecoverable deep stall. The video you see is two seaters because this is only done in training so that new pilots can understand how this stall happens and how to recover 

At no point do I think a J-35 pilot ever said: let me do a Cobra maneuver as a acrobatic move or a combat move to get a missile solution 

With MiG-29, pressing AP off for 3 seconds will disconnect damper. Thus You can do high AOA, but it is debatable if it is a “cobra” or not. Or even of Pugachev.

There is a story that MiG-29 development team had been doing these high AOA excursions, Pugachev saw this. Then applied it to Su-27 which was the first one capable of 90-110 degree AOA. You will never reach that high AOA in DCS or likely real life with a MiG-29. I think with MiG-29, you will not really get higher then 45-60 degrees unless you go so slow you incorporate a tail slide into it 

 

Wrong. J35, MiG-29 and Su-27 use the same Aerodynamic phenomena called "Super Stall". It is the same maneuver.
It is basic information. It is even in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver#:~:text=The result was the cobra,pulled negative alpha to recover.

Edited May 8, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Wrong. J35, MiG-29 and Su-27 use the same Aerodynamic phenomena called "Super Stall". It is the same maneuver.
It is basic information. It is even in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver#:~:text=The result was the cobra,pulled negative alpha to recover.

 

While I don’t completely trust wiki and the same page claims MiG-21 can cobra, I understand the mentions of it being used in the memoirs of Draken pilots. 

But I wonder what the limitations are, I had heard it needed roll to enter and you can sort of see this in the video. 

[DummyCatz]

19 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Wrong. J35, MiG-29 and Su-27 use the same Aerodynamic phenomena called "Super Stall".

Wrong.

The actual 'aerodynamic phenomena' is the increase in pitching moment due to aerodynamic center moving forward at high AOA, causing a reduction in static margin, plus non-aerodynamic moments such as the rotational inertia.

Super stall or deep stalls are related to insufficient pitch-down moment generated by the elevator, that the aircraft is unable to recover from it just by pushing the stick, but requires pitch rocking.

Cobra is all about maximizing pitch-up moment to produce pitch rate in order to reach a higher AOA.

Edited May 9, 2024 by DummyCatz

[303_Kermit]

11 hours ago, DummyCatz said:

Wrong.

The actual 'aerodynamic phenomena' is the increase in pitching moment due to aerodynamic center moving forward at high AOA, causing a reduction in static margin, plus non-aerodynamic moments such as the rotational inertia.

Super stall or deep stalls are related to insufficient pitch-down moment generated by the elevator, that the aircraft is unable to recover from it just by pushing the stick, but requires pitch rocking.

Cobra is all about maximizing pitch-up moment to produce pitch rate in order to reach a higher AOA.

 

Well to be precise deep stall happens rather on T - shaped tail planes. Like F-104. It happens during stall, when Elevator enters a shadow zone behind the wing, when there is no sufficient airflow. In J35 there is no such case - there appears different phenomena typical for double delta wing. During flight with high angle of attack - above linear part of wings CL/AoA characteristic - builds up a high energy state vortex. Same vortex - builds up on wing of MiG-29 and Su-27. The only difference is - that J35 being double delta has a problem with it. In some range of AoA horizontal steering becomes not effective. But all 3 planes make the same maneuver. Only on J35 it's not a fancy aerobatic stunt, but practical way of recovering from deep stall.

@DummyCatz "increase in pitching moment due to aerodynamic center moving forward at high AOA, causing a reduction in static margin, plus non-aerodynamic moments such as the rotational inertia." - that is definition of stall - and be please aware that for MiG-29 "reduction of static margin" appears already on AoA35°. (According to Low Rn Wind Tunnel tests). Vortex creates Lift, but does not build any negative aerodynamic moment. In other words does not create aerodynamic stability (aerodynamic damping forces). 

Summary. Russians didn't invent Cobra maneuver. It was already known since J35 existence.

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Well to be precise deep stall happens rather on T - shaped tail planes. Like F-104. It happens during stall, when Elevator enters a shadow zone behind the wing, when there is no sufficient airflow. In J35 there is no such case - there appears different phenomena typical for double delta wing. During flight with high angle of attack - above linear part of wings CL/AoA characteristic - builds up a high energy state vortex. Same vortex - builds up on wing of MiG-29 and Su-27. The only difference is - that J35 being double delta has a problem with it. In some range of AoA horizontal steering becomes not effective. But all 3 planes make the same maneuver. Only on J35 it's not a fancy aerobatic stunt, but practical way of recovering from deep stall.

@DummyCatz "increase in pitching moment due to aerodynamic center moving forward at high AOA, causing a reduction in static margin, plus non-aerodynamic moments such as the rotational inertia." - that is definition of stall - and be please aware that for MiG-29 "reduction of static margin" appears already on AoA35°. (According to Low Rn Wind Tunnel tests). Vortex creates Lift, but does not build any negative aerodynamic moment. In other words does not create aerodynamic stability (aerodynamic damping forces). 

Summary. Russians didn't invent Cobra maneuver. It was already known since J35 existence.

But doesn’t J-35 maneuver require a roll moment/input to create the necessary conditions? 

[DummyCatz]

5 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Well to be precise deep stall happens rather on T - shaped tail planes. Like F-104. It happens during stall, when Elevator enters a shadow zone behind the wing, when there is no sufficient airflow. .

Not exclusive to T-shaped tail aircraft, but happens on F-16 and F-35 as well (especially the SVTOL version that has the smallest horizontal tail). It is due to Cm/AOA characteristics, not CL/AOA. Let me refer to the Cm (pitching moment coefficient) of F-16, Su-27 and F-35 to illustrate different requirements to enter a deep stall and a cobra.

From https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19800005879/downloads/19800005879.pdf

 

As you can see with only an insignificant stab deflection, combined with the instability due to reduced static margin and loss of pitch-down control effectiveness, the aircraft can enter the deep stall region and be stuck in it. Because the nose-down control even creates positive Cm. And the positive static margin region of AOA greater than 55° allows pitch oscillation to be reduced, stranding the aircraft into a specific deep stall trim point.

Similar in F-35, from https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2019-3227

 

Eventually the F-16 developed a technique called pitch rocking to increase pitch oscillation, in order to get out of the trim point. The F-35 even have an automatic pitch rocker for this. It wouldn’t require a cobra for deep stall recovery, as the pitch rate is too significant on recovery too, that it can go over the deep stall area rather quickly.

 

But cobra is really about how many pitch-up moment the aircraft can generate, and is particularly refering to the upper most Cm curve. Now here’s such Cm of Su-27, from TsAGI paper https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/6.1993-4737

The pitch rate culminates at around 70° AoA, as all the positive Cm accumulates to form pitch-rate. After that the pitch-rate decreases to 0 at 100° AoA due to the pitch-down moment by the airframe.

So they’re not completely related. The Su-27 doesn’t exhibit a deep stall, at least not in negative AoA.

Edited May 9, 2024 by DummyCatz

[okopanja]

14 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Well to be precise deep stall happens rather on T - shaped tail planes. Like F-104. It happens during stall, when Elevator enters a shadow zone behind the wing, when there is no sufficient airflow. In J35 there is no such case - there appears different phenomena typical for double delta wing. During flight with high angle of attack - above linear part of wings CL/AoA characteristic - builds up a high energy state vortex. Same vortex - builds up on wing of MiG-29 and Su-27. The only difference is - that J35 being double delta has a problem with it. In some range of AoA horizontal steering becomes not effective. But all 3 planes make the same maneuver. Only on J35 it's not a fancy aerobatic stunt, but practical way of recovering from deep stall.

@DummyCatz "increase in pitching moment due to aerodynamic center moving forward at high AOA, causing a reduction in static margin, plus non-aerodynamic moments such as the rotational inertia." - that is definition of stall - and be please aware that for MiG-29 "reduction of static margin" appears already on AoA35°. (According to Low Rn Wind Tunnel tests). Vortex creates Lift, but does not build any negative aerodynamic moment. In other words does not create aerodynamic stability (aerodynamic damping forces). 

Summary. Russians didn't invent Cobra maneuver. It was already known since J35 existence.

And as we know it was Swedes who performed these maneuvers with Draken on pretty much every air show...

BTW: pretty interesting history that article you quoted has.

Here is where: the Draken video appeared, and where it got mainly credited to the Swedes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cobra_maneuver&oldid=1012108655

Sweden introduced by the same user:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cobra_maneuver&oldid=922153979

 

Edited May 10, 2024 by okopanja

[303_Kermit]

1 hour ago, DummyCatz said:

Not exclusive to T-shaped tail aircraft, but happens on F-16 and F-35 as well (especially the SVTOL version that has the smallest horizontal tail). It is due to Cm/AOA characteristics, not CL/AOA. Let me refer to the Cm (pitching moment coefficient) of F-16, Su-27 and F-35 to illustrate different requirements to enter a deep stall and a cobra.

From https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19800005879/downloads/19800005879.pdf

 

As you can see with only an insignificant stab deflection, combined with the instability due to reduced static margin and loss of pitch-down control effectiveness, the aircraft can enter the deep stall region and be stuck in it. Because the nose-down control even creates positive Cm. And the positive static margin region of AOA greater than 55° allows pitch oscillation to be reduced, stranding the aircraft into a specific deep stall trim point.

Similar in F-35, from https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2019-3227

 

Eventually the F-16 developed a technique called pitch rocking to increase pitch oscillation, in order to get out of the trim point. The F-35 even have an automatic pitch rocker for this. It wouldn’t require a cobra for deep stall recovery, as the pitch rate is too significant on recovery too, that it can go over the deep stall area rather quickly.

 

But cobra is really about how many pitch-up moment the aircraft can generate, and is particularly refering to the upper most Cm curve. Now here’s such Cm of Su-27, from TsAGI paper https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/6.1993-4737

The pitch rate culminates at around 70° AoA, as all the positive Cm accumulates to form pitch-rate. After that the pitch-rate decreases to 0 at 100° AoA due to the pitch-down moment by the airframe.

So they’re not completely related. The Su-27 doesn’t exhibit a deep stall, at least not in negative AoA.

 

I am not denying that Su-27 is better than J35 Draaken  

As for the post:
1. Writing that F-16 is static unstable (has negative stability) is hardly a discovery  It was a huge sensation about 45 years ago. That is exactly why F-16 becomes fly-by-wire. It can't fly without it.

2. I find extremely uncertain any aerodynamic data of F35. They can't be verified, since you support your revelations with article with limited access. Also I don't see a point  in it. We are talking about J35 and Cobra maneuver. 

3. Same case is for Data quote for Su-27 - dokument has limited access. Your revelations can't be verified. Do you have any public accessible source? The data I saw about MiG-29 come from Aerodynamic Institute in Warsaw. Where they're available to see for every visitor.

Whole post is very interesting, unfortunately unverifiable, and... not quite about the discussed subject. Changes nothing. Cobra maneuver exists since early 60, and was first performed by Swedish pilots. Aerodynamical difficulties of J35 makes their inventors even more respect worthy. 

My best regards.
 

Edited May 9, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[Dragon1-1]

20 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

1. Writing that F-16 is static unstable (has negative stability) is hardly a discovery  It was a huge sensation about 45 years ago. That is exactly why F-16 becomes fly-by-wire. It can't fly without it.

FYI, it's not actually unstable (negative static stability), but neutrally stable. Depending on configuration, it probably could fly without its FBW, though not well. The difference is, a negatively stable aircraft actively resists trying to fly nose-first, while the Viper merely doesn't care whether it does or not. F-35 doesn't, either, most notably, it's on record for pretty readily flying backwards in right conditions. That is a hallmark of a neutrally stable aircraft.

Also worth noting, a "classic" deep stall is indeed exclusive to T-tailed aircraft, since the term originally specifically denoted a kind of stall that is made unrecoverable by turbulent air from wings blanketing the elevators. Very real problem on T-tails. The Viper's "deep stall" is a different phenomenon that got stuck with the same name, and refers to a state that is not unrecoverable (elevators still work if you hold the MPO switch), but which puts the aircraft in a somewhat aerodynamically stable configuration, falling more or less straight down belly first. Regaining control from that involves "simply" forcing the nose down so that normal flying configuration is restored. This is what affects other relaxed stability designs, as well.

[DummyCatz]

3 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

I am not denying that Su-27 is better than J35 Draaken  

As for the post:
1. Writing that F-16 is static unstable (has negative stability) is hardly a discovery  It was a huge sensation about 45 years ago. That is exactly why F-16 becomes fly-by-wire. It can't fly without it.

2. I find extremely uncertain any aerodynamic data of F35. They can't be verified, since you support your revelations with article with limited access. Also I don't see a point  in it. We are talking about J35 and Cobra maneuver. 

3. Same case is for Data quote for Su-27 - dokument has limited access. Your revelations can't be verified. Do you have any public accessible source? The data I saw about MiG-29 come from Aerodynamic Institute in Warsaw. Where they're available to see for every visitor.

Whole post is very interesting, unfortunately unverifiable, and... not quite about the discussed subject. Changes nothing. Cobra maneuver exists since early 60, and was first performed by Swedish pilots. Aerodynamical difficulties of J35 makes their inventors even more respect worthy. 

My best regards.
 

 

My whole point was that the ability to perform cobra is unrelated to super stall or deep stalls, in general. It was a response to your previous statement. I’m not talking about who did cobra first.

I’ll send these papers via PM, thanks. You can get them from links but not suitable to post here.

You can read the paper and find out who TsAGI is, who wrote the paper. And I apologize to you that The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics is not as open as Aerodynamic Institute in Warsaw. Also, the F-35 paper is written by Lockheed Martin.

Nice try by questioning the credibility of those papers. 

Edited May 10, 2024 by DummyCatz

[DummyCatz]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Viper's "deep stall" is a different phenomenon that got stuck with the same name, and refers to a state that is not unrecoverable (elevators still work if you hold the MPO switch), but which puts the aircraft in a somewhat aerodynamically stable configuration, falling more or less straight down belly first. Regaining control from that involves "simply" forcing the nose down so that normal flying configuration is restored. This is what affects other relaxed stability designs, as well.

Not that simple for an F-16 to recover from a deep stall either. Search ‘pitch rocking’ in NASA TP1538 posted above, or to be concise, push stick forward when seeing pitch-down movement, and pull stick back when seeing pitch-up movement, to gradually build up pitch oscillation. This is the same technique used with Draken. (You can search for 'Flight Manual TF-35 Draken', it's a 1971 document so free from rule 1.16)

The Cm curve self-explains.

 

MPO just allows the pilot to take direct control of the stab, otherwise the FLCS will command full pitch-down above 25° AoA, which does nothing to recover the aircraft and still stabilizes in the deep stall trim point.

Remember that the static margin is related to the slope of Cm curve, or δCm/δAoA. When we usually say the F-16 has a negative static margin or statically unstable, we're referring to subsonic speed at low AoA with a neutral stab, at its designed center of gravity. Static margin changes at higher AoA.

 

From the Draken manual, the aircraft is statically unstable in pitch if AoA is greater than 25°, and can be stabilized in a deep stall trim point of 50°-60°.

Edited May 10, 2024 by DummyCatz

[DummyCatz]

12 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

@DummyCatz "increase in pitching moment due to aerodynamic center moving forward at high AOA, causing a reduction in static margin, plus non-aerodynamic moments such as the rotational inertia." - that is definition of stall

This is wrong too. The definition of stall is about CL/AoA characteristics, that the current AoA exceeds the critical AoA where CLmax is reached.

While deep stall is about Cm/AoA characteristics, where insufficient nose-down control moment prevents aircraft recovery from high AOA condition. Guess why the Draken pilot has to pull back the stick and then push the stick forward to build up pitch oscillation for recovery from a stabilized deep stall at 50°-60° AoA.

 

Definition by NASA TM 101684 (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19900009890/downloads/19900009890.pdf)

 

12 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Only on J35 it's not a fancy aerobatic stunt, but practical way of recovering from deep stall.

So no, a cobra is not needed for recovery from a deep stall, but oscillatory pitch inputs. Those instructions are given in the Draken flight manual.

Edited May 10, 2024 by DummyCatz

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Cobra maneuver exists since early 60, and was first performed by Swedish pilots. Aerodynamical difficulties of J35 makes their inventors even more respect worthy. 

Swedish cockpit video is recorded in color. For that you needed a color camera small enough to fit inside cockpit and be operated by a pilot. Obviously the camera had to exist before, so the video could exist only after.

It should be observed that the Draken performs this at high altitude, which is very much different from the conditions Pugachev Cobra is executed at. It would be cool for a Draken pilot to attempt that at same conditions.

When the Pugachev Cobra was first performed in public, this very soon caused many pilots to attempt to replicate it with more or less success. These aircrafts were mostly designed in 60s and 70s, but that does not mean that this was regular and safe practice.

This became widely more possible after more aircrafts with TVC were available, but to be honest I am not sure if we even should call TVC manouvers Pugachev Cobra.

 

Edited May 10, 2024 by okopanja

[DummyCatz]

20 hours ago, okopanja said:

the Draken performs this at high altitude, which is very much different from the conditions Pugachev Cobra is executed at. It would be cool for a Draken pilot to attempt that at same conditions.

It could be simply that uncommanded pitch-up (instability) happens earlier in the Mach number range of 0.5-0.6, at 18°-20° AoA. And at a higher altitude this is a slow enough speed for the Cobra. Otherwise the instability happens at 25° AoA, meaning a reduced max AoA. See flight characteristics section of the Draken manual.

Safety concerns such as the risk of excursion into an inverted super stall, or yaw rate building up would count too.

Edited May 11, 2024 by DummyCatz

[DummyCatz]

On 5/3/2024 at 2:56 AM, AeriaGloria said:

There is a story that MiG-29 development team had been doing these high AOA excursions, Pugachev saw this. Then applied it to Su-27 which was the first one capable of 90-110 degree AOA. You will never reach that high AOA in DCS or likely real life with a MiG-29. I think with MiG-29, you will not really get higher then 45-60 degrees unless you go so slow you incorporate a tail slide into it 

 

I think with a relatively aft center of gravity, the 9.12 is possible to do a Cobra with less than 90° AoA, due to the aforementioned aerodynamic center moving forward, causing instability. Both an aft c.o.g and forward aerodynamic center contributes to a higher pitching moment.

From 5:36 of the Cleveland Airshow,

 

On 5/10/2024 at 5:53 AM, AeriaGloria said:

But doesn’t J-35 maneuver require a roll moment/input to create the necessary conditions?

Rolling would normally contribute to pitch rate due to inertia coupling (explained in NASA TP1538), but in the case of J-35, the roll stopped before the initiation of pull-up, so it doesn't matter much.