Oh wel, here goes - Randy vs Toon...

[kaiserb_uk]

So in my initial attempts at BFM in the F4 I'm struggling like most.  So, how did Randy 'Duke' Cunningham beat 'Colonel Tomb/Toon' in a hard wing F4??  He wasn't even fighting a Mig-21!

null

[Kalasnkova74]

Luck.

As Ed “Fast Eddie” Cobleigh put it, the U.S. Navy’s aces relied on sidewinders and close maneuvering. Duke got his MiGs..and lost an F-4J.

The USAF aces relied on Sparrows and teamwork. Ritchie and DeBellevue not only took away five MiGs from Uncle Ho’s inventory, but did it without losing any of Uncle Sam’s hardware in the process.

I know the strategy I admire, and it ain’t Cunningham’s. The perhaps uncomfortable fact is killing MiGs effectively in the F-4 is a team sport. Go it alone at close quarters in the Phantom II and you’ll be riding a parachute, as the Navy’s aces discovered the hard way. 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Kalasnkova74

[Victory205]

They were shot down by an SA-2, on one of the biggest days of the air war in Viet Nam. There were hundreds of F4’s airborne that day in multiple engagements across the north. Perhaps you can explain how your MiG theory applies?

[Cab]

4 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Luck.

As Ed “Fast Eddie” Cobleigh put it, the U.S. Navy’s aces relied on sidewinders and close maneuvering. Duke got his MiGs..and lost an F-4J.

The USAF aces relied on Sparrows and teamwork. Ritchie and DeBellevue not only took away five MiGs from Uncle Ho’s inventory, but did it without losing any of Uncle Sam’s hardware in the process.

I know the strategy I admire, and it ain’t Cunningham’s. The perhaps uncomfortable fact is killing MiGs effectively in the F-4 is a team sport. Go it alone at close quarters in the Phantom II and you’ll be riding a parachute, as the Navy’s aces discovered the hard way. 

 

As far as I can tell, the only thing factual or relevant about the above is the part about Sidewinders and Sparrows. 

I’d never heard of “Fast Eddie”, but I don’t think he had grasp of Navy tactics in the early seventies.

Edited May 31, 2024 by Cab

[Cab]

6 hours ago, kaiserb_uk said:

So in my initial attempts at BFM in the F4 I'm struggling like most.  So, how did Randy 'Duke' Cunningham beat 'Colonel Tomb/Toon' in a hard wing F4??  He wasn't even fighting a Mig-21!

null

Have you read Cunningham's narrative on that engagement? In my opinion, the way he tells it makes it easier to understand the outcome than the diagrams do.

[Jayhawk1971]

Is that the origin story of "I'm gonna hit the breaks, he'll fly right by"? 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Jayhawk1971

[Gianky]

11 hours ago, Cab said:

I’d never heard of “Fast Eddie”, but I don’t think he had grasp of Navy tactics in the early seventies.

He's a former USAF F-4E pilot who wrote a book (War for the hell of it) about his service in Vietnam: he throws the occasional jab at Navy pilots, but I'd say he wasn't (too) disrespectufl of them. The book is fine, not my favourite (I'd suggest Ed Rasimus' "Palace Cobra" for a Phantom reading), but worth the purchase.

And, yeah, I don't see what Cunningham/Driscoll shot down has to do with their fight against the MiGs, or Navy tactics, since they were shot down by a SAM...

[Cab]

6 minutes ago, Gianky said:

He's a former USAF F-4E pilot who wrote a book (War for the hell of it) about his service in Vietnam: he throws the occasional jab at Navy pilots, but I'd say he wasn't (too) disrespectufl of them. The book is fine, not my favourite (I'd suggest Ed Rasimus' "Palace Cobra" for a Phantom reading), but worth the purchase.

And, yeah, I don't see what Cunningham/Driscoll shot down has to do with their fight against the MiGs, or Navy tactics, since they were shot down by a SAM...

Yeah, I get it. But to imply Navy F-4 pilots didn't use teamwork in their tactics is not accurate.

And off the top of my head, I believe the Navy's kill ratio in 1972 far exceeded the Air Forces.

[Gianky]

@Cab I don't think Cobleigh ever implied that, I should re-read the book, but I don't remember anything like that. I think the bit about teamwork is from Kalasnkova.

[Cab]

2 hours ago, Gianky said:

@Cab I don't think Cobleigh ever implied that, I should re-read the book, but I don't remember anything like that. I think the bit about teamwork is from Kalasnkova.

Fair enough