Loosing controls if engines are down

[admiki]

1 hour ago, GKOver said:

@Ruiner: You don't know me but you are telling me that I am too stupid for Autorotation....?
You don't know what I have studied and where I have worked. But that doesn't matter because it seems that you know everything better about me than I do.

For the others: how can I start an Autorotation if all axis controls are not working anymore? ......

 

I have watched your track.

Your axis controls are working just fine all the way to the ground.

Do you want me to say it?

Helicopter is working just fine, it's you that is not doing what you are supposed to do to enter autorotation.

Drop the f-ing collective down!!!

 

Edited June 9, 2024 by admiki

[LorenLuke]

3 hours ago, GKOver said:

@Ruiner: You don't know me but you are telling me that I am too stupid for Autorotation....?
You don't know what I have studied and where I have worked. But that doesn't matter because it seems that you know everything better about me than I do.

For the others: how can I start an Autorotation if all axis controls are not working anymore? ......

Engine failure doesn't care where you've studied or where you've worked, either. Other's said it can be done, and if you were doing it correctly, this thread wouldn't exist.

I've watched the track, too, and the VERY FIRST THING you did was add collective, which is at the top of the 'do not do this' list. So, if you want to put your studies and work experience into play, this is what it got you.

Or you could just go look up a video, and add to that education just a bit more, especially considering you're coming to others to ask their help for your problem.

[cha5er]

i`ve done it myself, and yes, if you not immediatly react, you loosing control... i`ve done it multiple times with success, and some ending with death...

it was definetly possible, but the trys are a while ago... i`ll try it again next time i fly...

[ShuRugal]

On 6/6/2024 at 5:27 PM, GKOver said:

How can I use autorotation if nothing works anymore……….

in the case of loss of both engines, you have about 1.25 seconds to recognize the problem and get the collective on the floor.  if you don't react in that window, the rotor RPM will droop too far to be recovered.

[GKOver]

Let's assume that I am too stupid for this, as I was told in some of the former posts ....
-> Why I am not too stupid for the Autorotation with the Mi-24, Mi-8 and the Huey?

-> And why I always get this extreme forward pitch and also 20+ times the message "Armed"?

Once again, I never feel any reaction to the controls in the Apache after loosing the engines. No matter what I am doing with any of the axis controls it seems that the Apache is flying without me.
"Your axis controls are working just fine all the way to the ground." I will check that in the track file by looking at the rotor.

 

AND: A long time ago, I have done very often the Autorotation in the Apache.

OK, I will analyze it once again with reproducing the problem, trying the Autorotation and looking at the track file.

Edited June 10, 2024 by GKOver

[LorenLuke]

1 hour ago, GKOver said:

Let's assume that I am too stupid for this, as I was told in some of the former posts ....
-> Why I am not too stupid for the Autorotation with the Mi-24, Mi-8 and the Huey?

Because those helicopters work differently?

1 hour ago, GKOver said:

-> And why I always get this extreme forward pitch and also 20+ times the message "Armed"?

Because the that's the physics of the aircraft in an unpowered fall.

1 hour ago, GKOver said:

Once again, I never feel any reaction to the controls in the Apache after loosing the engines. No matter what I am doing with any of the axis controls it seems that the Apache is flying without me.
"Your axis controls are working just fine all the way to the ground." I will check that in the track file by looking at the rotor.

It's not a matter of axes working or not working, if you don't follow the correct steps to autorotate. We can see you move your collective up and up as you fall. Your collective works, and you're doing the opposite of what you need to do.

From what I'm able to gather from what others have said in this thread, all hydraulic and electric power in the aircraft is generated from the rotors spinning. Usually that's the engines doing that, but if you lose those, if you want any hydraulic or electrical control, you have to keep the rotors spinning. It doesn't matter if it's from the engines (which you've lost), autorotation, faerie magic, or getting out and pushing them with your own hands... if you want power to the aircraft and hydraulics, YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE ROTORS SPINNING. 

1 hour ago, GKOver said:

AND: A long time ago, I have done very often the Autorotation in the Apache.

There have been multiple updates to the systems to make them behave more realistic to the real-life aircraft since. This behavior before was likely the result of a less accurate simulation.

1 hour ago, GKOver said:

OK, I will analyze it once again with reproducing the problem, trying the Autorotation and looking at the track file.

When you lose the engines, just make sure you IMMEDIATELY put your collective to the floor as the very first step.

[admiki]

2 hours ago, GKOver said:

Why I am not too stupid for the Autorotation with the Mi-24, Mi-8 and the Huey?

All of them have higher inertia in their rotor system, giving you more time to react.

Besides, I don't know how you are doing autorotation in those helicopters, but in your track file you never dropped the collective. Without that, you are not entering autorotation. Period.

2 hours ago, GKOver said:

Once again, I never feel any reaction to the controls in the Apache after loosing the engines.

If your rotor is not spinning fast enough there is nothing left to react to your inputs.

EDIT: responded at the same time with LorenLuke. He said it more fluently, but I will keep this here for transparency.

Edited June 10, 2024 by admiki

[admiki]

I just did a test with ground power and external air to avoid APU boosting hydraulics.

I started one engine to idle and then shut it down. As rotor was slowing down I was moving cyclic and observing hyd pressures. As I was moving controls, hydraulic pressures dropped, but even at 25% RRPM it was boosting hydraulics back to working pressure as soon as I stopped moving controls, which gave me another few tries at moving them again.

So, I did another test. Without APU and ground power, you would lose your MFDs at 77% RRPM. I again connected ground power to avoid losing screens, spooled up to flight idle and then killed the engines. Hydraulics were working all the way down to ~45% RRPM. You are not flying with 45% RRPM.

And more important, if you allow your rotor to droop that low, it's user error. End of story.

 

[GKOver]

Please just forget my track file because it is NOT showing the exact problem. I can‘t reproduce the problem (I call it problem B, look below) with loosing the controls by destroying the engines with a too high RPM. When I had this error, the message „Armed“ massively occured.

 

@admiki: Thanks for your analysis. I have exactly the same behaviour.

The hydraulics are using the rotor energy and the displays also need a high rotor RPM. The controls and displays are working for their own.

The emergency hydraulics button is not needed if the RRPM is not getting too low. 

BUT the batteries don‘t seem to be used for the displays. And this is for me hard to believe. Especially in such a situation.

 

My problems are:

A. Why the displays are shutdown so fast if the RPMs are getting too low? I can‘t believe that the battery can‘t feed them anymore. 

B. Not reproducible: Total loose of any control although the rotor still has enough energy, just within a millisecond after loosing the engines. I will post the track if it occurs again.

 

My problem is NOT doing the Autorotation.

Edited June 23, 2024 by GKOver

[bradmick]

10 hours ago, GKOver said:

Please just forget my track file because it is NOT showing the exact problem. I can‘t reproduce the problem (I call it problem B, look below) with loosing the controls by destroying the engines with a too high RPM. When I had this error, the message „Armed“ massively occured.

 

@admiki: Thanks for your analysis. I have exactly the same behaviour.

The hydraulics are using the rotor energy and the displays also need a high rotor RPM. The controls and displays are working for their own.

The emergency hydraulics button is not needed if the RRPM is not getting too low. 

BUT the batteries don‘t seem to be used for the displays. And this is for me hard to believe. Especially in such a situation.

 

My problems are:

A. Why the displays are shutdown so fast if the RPMs are getting too low? I can‘t believe that the battery can‘t feed them anymore. 

B. Not reproducible: Total loose of any control although the rotor still has enough energy, just within a millisecond after loosing the engines. I will post the track if it occurs again.

 

My problem is NOT doing the Autorotation.

 

Because the battery *doesn’t feed the displays*…you ever do a cold start? When do the mpds turn on? That’s right, after the apu is turning the accessory section of the transmission…to which the generators are attached. So it’s a lack of knowledge and understanding of the systems that’s getting g the better of you. Also, the hydraulic pumps are attached to the accessory section too. If you don’t get the collective down and restore the rotor speed, the accessory section won’t spin fast enough to power these critical components.

Edited June 23, 2024 by bradmick

[GKOver]

How about writing answers in a polite way?

Of course I habe done cold starts many times… at the start the displays are not so important as in the flight…..

Regarding problem A: I am asking generally: why the displays are not being fed by the batteries, just for a couple of seconds?

[bradmick]

30 minutes ago, GKOver said:

How about writing answers in a polite way?

Of course I habe done cold starts many times… at the start the displays are not so important as in the flight…..

Regarding problem A: I am asking generally: why the displays are not being fed by the batteries, just for a couple of seconds?

I answer how I answer.
 

And because they’re not powered by the battery bus. If the battery bus powered them, they’d turn on when the battery was turned on.

Edited June 23, 2024 by bradmick

[admiki]

8 hours ago, bradmick said:

I answer how I answer.
 

And because they’re not powered by the battery bus. If the battery bus powered them, they’d turn on when the battery was turned on.

 

Now, now. Not everyone here is Army.

9 hours ago, GKOver said:

How about writing answers in a polite way?

Of course I habe done cold starts many times… at the start the displays are not so important as in the flight…..

Regarding problem A: I am asking generally: why the displays are not being fed by the batteries, just for a couple of seconds?

Maybe because you are asking same questions over and over again and completely ignoring the answers we are giving you because you either don't like them or you think all of us are wrong.

Your problem A is non-existent if you do what you are supposed to do. Like a lot of us here seem to be capable of doing. So it's a YOU problem, not a helicopter problem.

As for your problem B, I'll give you this:

But TL;DR is push the damn collective down!

Edited June 24, 2024 by admiki

[LorenLuke]

21 hours ago, GKOver said:

How about writing answers in a polite way?

I'm sorry that the REAL LIFE APACHE PILOT WHO ACTUALLY FLIES THE REAL THING AND ADVISES EAGLE DYNAMICS ON HOW TO MAKE THEIR MODULE MORE REALISTIC wasn't nice enough for you to listen to their answer.

21 hours ago, GKOver said:

Regarding problem A: I am asking generally: why the displays are not being fed by the batteries, just for a couple of seconds?

Because that's the way the helicopter actually works and functions.

For clarity, this is like buying some sort of simulator for a 1998 Toyota Camry and asking 'Why does my car not immediately start when I turn the key to "start"? Why do I have to hold it down for a few seconds?' Because that's how the real thing works.

That's just the way the aircraft is, and any further questions should be directed to the ghosts of the Hughes Helicopter Company and/or the McDonnell Douglas Corporation, which now are laid to rest on property owned by The Boeing Company.

[Raptor9]

Everyone needs to take a breath and calm down. This is just a game.

@GKOver, if you feel there is something wrong with the DCS AH-64D, please record a short track demonstrating what your issue is and post it in the AH-64D Bugs & Problems section. Otherwise, I am afraid that the other replies in this thread, however the manner in which they are phrased, are indicative of the issue you seem to be experiencing. But without a track file to demonstrate what you are referring to, we can only speculate what you are or are not doing to cause the issue in the first place.

I believe @bradmick's answer on the first page is the most complete and accurate answer that can be provided to the original poster's question, and is thus marked as the solution.

[JetCat]

On 6/24/2024 at 11:16 PM, Raptor9 said:

This is just a game.

This does not necessarily means something bad. Witcher 3 is also a game for example...

Apache is love Apache is life just like Witcher...

 

On 6/24/2024 at 12:18 AM, GKOver said:

Regarding problem A: I am asking generally: why the displays are not being fed by the batteries, just for a couple of seconds?

Ah that´s indeed interesting. Not part of this topic here, but maybe the computer systems are so power-hungy and also function with a different voltage (110 volts just like many other systems in the Apache - front FLIR cameras etc. - instead of 24 battery volts) so probably only the APU can power the avionics.

Edited June 30, 2024 by JetCat

[Kutscha]

Hi guys. 
studying all your posts and looking through the real flight manual of the AH, I am still wondering how I should be able to maintain Rotor RPM in Limits without having an indication. 
as a Pilot (OH-58, Huey, BK117, H145) there was always an indication of NR. Thats your live saver beside speed and height indications during AR. 
I could just manage to simulate AR with NR indication taking throttles to just above idle so MPDs are working. 
 

the Helo remains perfectly controllable during AR in DCS. Collective lowering ASAP to maintain NR, keep trim and gain speed of 70-100kts. 
 

but no NR indication leads me thinking of missing features in the DCS model. What say the real AH pilots?

 

thx

Oh. And any solution for this:

you can touch down hard during AR and the Helo remains fine. 
touching down as silk and level at an FARP leaves it bouncing around on ground and tilting to the side braki g of the stab if you dont pay attention

 

??

[admiki]

As long as you have enough rotor RPM to actually control the helicopter during autorotation, you will have MPD's on and you will have Nr indication.

As for your second issue, I'm just throwing a guess here, but it seems there is an issue with ground mesh/colision model.

[Kutscha]

So adjusting RPM is done by indirectly switching screens on and off?!

i got what you mean. Thanks. The chance of a double engine fail is so rare anyhow. But if, strange they dont blend it in the IHADSS automatically