Advice for New PC Needed

[kksnowbear]

Anyone who's worked with these things understands - or should - that by lowering CAS levels enough with high enough speeds, you can make RAM unstable.  (By the way this isn't new, and certainly isn't limited to AM5).

You started off by saying you can't use 4 modules, which is not correct.  I've done it, several times, with no problems.

Later in the discussion, you added mention of CAS levels, which (of course) if you try to run higher speeds with lower CAS levels, eventually you'll have problems.  Again, not limited to AM5 or that IMC alone.  Eventually, you settled on 6000 CAS30 as 'ideal' which by your own admission you can't even make work with four modules.  How's that ideal?

"Ideal" for me means it actually works.  The ones I built absolutely do work as rated and designed.  Not much point in carrying on about an ideal that is practically unattainable.  (By the way, AMD has published guidance on this subject long ago, and it's all entirely within design specs).

Trying to run speeds too high with CAS too low is bound to cause problems - not news, and certainly not limited to AM5.

I selected components that would deliver the result to the client - which is also what I said earlier:  Who does the work is also a factor.  If the OP is paying someone, then it's up to that person to deliver or make it right.  My clients are happy.

[LucShep]

Nice word salad, as we say it around here.  
Interpreting facts that are not there, to create an argument with points that noone even aproached, perhaps to invigorate your "professionalism" (huh?), business and customers, has been a speciality of yours, considering the very same tone and way you aproach your peers in this forum, on other threads that you derailed before as well.
But hey narcissism can be treated, so not all is lost for you yet..

[kksnowbear]

Personal insults have no place in discussion forums.

Yet when all else fails you, that's your "go to".

Again my clients are happy. And the number is increasing. (Yup, including those right here on this forum).

Must be doing something right.  Unless you're saying they're all stupid, that is.

 

Edited June 14, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

Oh sure, your own replies to me are always respectful and in good faith. Right.

There's a simple fact you ignored, which would be simple to understand from my initial post - let me help you.... read the initial post, there's a list. In it says "32GB  6000MHz"

DDR5 6000Mhz CL30 (AMD EXPO) has been the best memory for Ryzen 7000 series. 
And it's what 99% of people are using for brand new systems with 7800X3D (like the OP is doing).

That "32GB  6000MHz" in the OT is going to be CL30, pretty sure about it.
OP already mentioned that he'd be tempted to add another 32GB of the same(?) memory, to get 64GB total capacity like he has mentioned in this thread.

Next thing, all sorts of troubles will happen, because 6000 CL30 is (AFAIK, and my experience) extremely problematic with 4x RAM modules, on AM5. 

That's why I replied "AM5 does not play well with 4 sticks of RAM (one of the downsides of this platform).
You should avoid it because, then, it almost surely will be unable to run the memory at EXPO profile (the XMP equivalent for AMD).
So, better keep it at 2 sticks of RAM only for AM5."  And followed by a 2x32 GB kit recomendation.

Once again. "32GB  6000MHz".
The 4 sticks of RAM I mentioned there is if adding another kit of that memory.
The EXPO I mentioned there, initially, is the EXPO of that memory. Which is pretty much alright to conclude it's 6000 CL30, right?

The fact that it can run with a completely different kit of 4 modules and/or with slower speed and higher latency, is neither here nor there.
Still not clear enough? 
Why the heck would you derail a thread just to pick completely unrelated facts that have nothing to do with it? 
Maybe that's your "go to", for whatever purposes? 

Someone mentioned that I should add you to the ignore list, and I found it too drastic. But perhaps it is better for both of us and our peers as well.

Edited June 14, 2024 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

Your advice (concerning four modules) was inaccurate. I offered a comment on first hand experience that showed this.

Simple.

Your assumptions concerning CAS30 were just that, and I've seen no proof in this thread (or really anywhere) about what "99%" of people are using. Sounds like opinion itself, not proven fact.  (I actually doubt 99% is accurate)

Everything after that was your personal attacks, and my responding to the posts you made.  You can't hide behind accusations of "derailing" and "hijacking" every time just because you're being proved wrong. This is really just an effort to make it seem like I'm somehow breaking forum rules when all I'm doing is discussion.  Sorry I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially when your comments are misleading.

It's not "derailing a thread"; it's called 'discussion'.  Just because you dont agree doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor that there's anything wrong with my comments.

Edited June 14, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Your advice (concerning four modules) was inaccurate. I offered a comment on first hand experience that showed this.

Simple.

Your assumptions concerning CAS30 were just that, and I've seen no proof in this thread (or really anywhere) about what "99%" of people are using. Sounds like opinion itself, not proven fact.  (I actually doubt 99% is accurate)

Everything after that was your personal attacks, and my responding to the posts you made.  You can't hide behind accusations of "derailing" and "hijacking" every time just because you're being proved wrong. This is really just an effort to make it seem like I'm somehow breaking forum rules when all I'm doing is discussion.  Sorry I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially when your comments are misleading.

It's not "derailing a thread"; it's called 'discussion'.  Just because you dont agree doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor that there's anything wrong with my comments.

 

No it's not inaccurate. And no, it's not wrong.

You mentioned running 4x16GB DDR5 sticks on AM5, and I quote "at rated EXPO speed". (but no mention of timings heh)
At least on four AM5 systems according to you, and I quote "three are B650E-F models, my own desktop is a B670E-F ROG Strix Gaming" ? (a typo surely, that last one must be an X670E-F)

AFAIK, no manufacturer sells 4x16GB AMD EXPO kits. Which means then, you're using two of the same kit mixed, most likely.
Neither are you using factory DDR5 6000 CL30 EXPO profile (which was my initial point), perhaps 6000 CL36 is what you're using as a base? 

If it's 4x sticks at 6000Mhz on AM5, then my bet is that you're probably running Hynix M-die based kits (higher tolerance especially on timings) with custom values for higher latency (perhaps CL38?) and relaxed timings, for stability, probably with adjusted/added voltages to it as well.

Am I close enough?
Which then does not disprove my point.
And is also of no interest to this thread. Like, at all.

I too overclock RAM, adjust memory speeds, timings and voltages too, but that is not something your regular DCS user in these forums will do.
Nor should it be recommended. Not in this sort of threads.

A regular user in these forum threads will likely want to put the RAM sticks, run the factory profile of RAM (AMD EXPO in this case) and be done and over with it.
That is extremely unlikely to happen when adding 2 more sticks of 6000 CL30 DDR5 to the ones already in there, which is what most of these AM5 systems are being sold with.
So, a bad experience later then when adding another of that same kit to increase capacity.
With 2 sticks of 6000 CL30 DDR5, shouldn't be a problem (and recommended) so better get all the ammount you invision in that format. With 4 sticks of 5600 CL40 DDR5 it usually isn't a problem either (but it's noticeably slower). That was my initial point, also in my 1st reply to you, which still remains and is not wrong.

Edited June 14, 2024 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

No, I'm afraid you're not close enough.  (Yes the B670E-F was a typo, now corrected, thanks).

I'm not using custom timings or any such thing.  And IIRC the memory (at least to the best of my recollection, since three of the four systems are not here anymore for me to confirm) uses Samsung devices.  I'm not recommending anything special to these people, and I'm not doing it to their systems either (unless they explicitly specify such things, but that doesn't apply to these AM5 builds.)  No custom values, no adjusted voltages, no modified timing values...nope.  Just SPD values, set up properly via standard BIOS profile.

So you'd lose that bet.

And I'll say it one more time: You didn't say anything about CAS levels until later in the thread - at which point you tried to invoke the "ideal" 6000MT/s CAS30 - which again, as I already said, the benefits of which are arguable at best.  I would go so far as to say no one would ever be able to *see* the difference in two systems at CAS30 and CAS32 or 36 RAM, assuming everything else was identical in a proper blind test.  I'd bet money on it, in fact.

And now you have latched on to CAS30 and won't let it go.  Who said it had to be CAS30 (other than you)?  I didn't say that - and neither did you, initially...in fact, you said:

"I'll rephrase then.  It will maybe run at AMD EXPO if that's below 5600Mhz CL40 speed/latency"

I can assure you (and did) all 4 of the builds I'm referring to are running 6000MT/s and less than CAS40.

You were not involved in these builds, and thus cannot speak to other factors that *definitely* played a part (such as cost, for example; maybe that's why the OP's builder advises as he does - can't speak for him though).  In my case, the clients are all perfectly happy; the machines run fine, from initial testing through today.  All have been in service for months now, and one is over a year ago (March '23). 

I deliver what I represent, including everything I'm citing here, and for less cost than any of the clients are likely to find on their own.  And no, to be accurate, I do not do it for the money - I'd starve to death if it was my livelihood.

I doubt these people would work with me if they didn't agree that I deliver.

Why does it bother you?  (Other than the fact that it shows your comment about four memory modules wasn't accurate, I mean - which it most assuredly does).

Edited June 14, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

And I'll say it one more time: You didn't say anything about CAS levels until later in the thread - at which point you tried to invoke the "ideal" 6000MT/s CAS30 - which again, as I already said, the benefits of which are arguable at best.  I would go so far as to say no one would ever be able to *see* the difference in two systems at CAS30 and CAS32 or 36 RAM, assuming everything else was identical in a proper blind test.  I'd bet money on it, in fact.

And now you have latched on to CAS30 and won't let it go.  Who said it had to be CAS30 (other than you)?  I didn't say that - and neither did you...in fact, you said:

"I'll rephrase then.  It will maybe run at AMD EXPO if that's below 5600Mhz CL40 speed/latency"

I can assure you (and did) all 4 of the builds I'm referring to are running 6000MT/s and less than CAS40.

You keep assuming things, deluded. I already justified myself well enough in the previous two posts, take of it what you will. 

The 6000 CL30, specifically that latency timing, came up well before you even started whining about my post.
Pay attention.
Why would I even recommend that specific kit in the first place then?

6000 CL30 is what everybody is selling in bundles and in whole systems of AM5, because it's what's more ready available and is the best for AM5 "out-of-the-box", period.
Regarded as slighly better and faster, as it's either SK Hynix M-Die or A-Die, slightly superior to Samsung B-Die (seen in 6000 CL36 and CL40) this time around, maybe because it's flexible, more tunable to extract a little bit more performance (OC), if ever inclined, while sold at similar price.
Call it assumption, whatever, it's very likely what the OP will end up getting anyway.

Would you feel the difference between CL30 and CL36 for AM5 on a propper DDR5 blind test?  Probably not.
Would you feel the difference between a 7800X3D and 14700K on a propper CPU blind test?  Probably not.
Would you feel the difference between a Crucial T700 and a WD SN850X on a propper NVME blind test?  Probably not.

..... if the slightly faster/better one is also priced so similarly, why wouldn't you go for it?

Edited June 14, 2024 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

Your assumptions about how I built the systems? Wrong.

Your initial assertion that you can't use four 6000MT/s RAM modules at a CAS less than 40? Also wrong.

Your 'bet' regarding custom memory timings etc? You'd lose.

If I can provide a better deal on performance that is indistinguishable using components that at the time were *far* less expensive...

...well, again, I don't imagine I'd be doing builds (and second and even *third* builds) for people who keep on coming back, unless I'm providing a service they certainly seem to value.

Interesting.

Hey I know... a compromise: You keep on telling folks it can't be done.

Meantime, I'll keep on doing it.

PS Just checked; the local MicroCenter has several AM5 bundles on sale right now...

...and exactly none of them include CAS30 modules. Regardless of which CPU, and even though all are 6000MT/s modules, none are CAS30.

That's probably one of the biggest brick and mortar outfits the US.  TBH I don't think the 99% figure you cited earlier is anywhere near accurate. You have sales figures or some other reference?

Edited June 15, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

Your assumptions about how I built the systems? Wrong.

Your initial assertion that you can't use four 6000MT/s RAM modules at a CAS less than 40? Also wrong.

Your 'bet' regarding custom memory timings etc? You'd lose.

I'll give you this... I'm far more accustomated with Intel based systems than AMD ones. And for sure I don't know it all.

I wasn't even aware (and still not aware) that there's any 6000 "CL non-30" AMD EXPO kit that is 4*16GB modules like the one you describe.
But if you can show what kits are those (to see price/performance) it's appreciated, because I got no info for such thing (unless those are Intel XMP based kits?).
 

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

PS Just checked; the local MicroCenter has several AM5 bundles on sale right now...

...and exactly none of them include CAS30 modules. Regardless of which CPU, and even though all are 6000MT/s modules, none are CAS30.

That's probably one of the biggest brick and mortar outfits the US.  TBH I don't think the 99% figure you cited earlier is anywhere near accurate. You have sales figures or some other reference?

 

I have no idea what's bigger in the US outside of Newegg and MicroCenter, and don't even know what's going on those lately.

I focus at national level (Portugal) because that's where I get all my HW for rigs (other than Amazon Spain) and trends here follow whatever goes up in big old Europe, for HW parts and prices. 
I don't have sales figures to share other than word in conversations from people working/owning stores, where I get parts from for many years now.
Basically, what they tell me is that, for high-end AM5 rigs they build, they don't skimp much on quality anymore (RAM, etc), because the pandemic-era festival with rip-offs and price gouging has ended, people got knowledged on what's what during the period, business tends to run thin and competicion exhists.
This subject comes up quite often, also in tech communities with which I participate also for many years. 

If that doesn't mean anything, that's okay (I don't care).

Around here, no store that I'm accustomated with is even using other 6000Mhz RAM for AM5 that is not CL30 for their system configurators.
For AMD EXPO kits, it's either 6000 C30 or the cheaper 5600 C36 and 5200 C40 lately. Nothing else gets the attention, it seems.
Could be lack of stock of different modules?  Or people simply overlooking those other kits?  I have no idea, but it is what it is.
Saw similar things happening with UK's SCAN (or was it Overclockers?) not too long ago.

You've been around for so long and are so successful, I don't know.... it shouldn't be much trouble asking the people you get parts from, "how many kits of 6000 CL30 are being sold, versus everything else, for AM5 (AMD Expo)?"
Heck, make a pole in these forums, ask people what RAM they've bought, or intend to buy, for their AM5 system?  

Edited June 15, 2024 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

.... it shouldn't be much trouble asking the people you get parts from, "how many kits of 6000 CL30 are being sold, versus everything else, for AM5 (AMD Expo)?"

Thanks, but... naah.  TBH it's not something I see as worth spending time on, where that same time could be used on efforts that allow me to find and offer my clients the kind of deals they want.

Proving that 99% of AM5 builds use memory x or y just doesn't matter in the same way that using four modules instead of two actually saved significant cost for the people I did these builds for. That's the type thing worth my spending time on.

4 hours ago, LucShep said:

6000 CL30 is what everybody is selling in bundles and in whole systems of AM5, because it's what's more ready available and is the best for AM5 "out-of-the-box", period.

Apparently, "everyone" is actually not selling bundles with 6000 CAS30. (What with MicroCenter being part of "everyone" ...and a fairly large part, at that).

And considering what MicroCenter is offering in bundles, I'd say it at least seems likely that CAS30 is not more readily available to them. Certainly looks like they're trying to move what they have more of (because...retail).

What is "best" depends on a lot more than CAS levels.  Cost by itself drives far more decisions than most any other factor, most of the time, in my experience. Being "best" technically doesn't matter at all if someone simply cannot afford it.  What was 'best' at the time, to the clients with the four builds I mentioned, was getting comparable performance for a *much* better price, even if it meant sacrificing slightly better CAS levels (which is indistinguishable for any practical purpose).

Edited June 15, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

59 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

What is "best" depends on a lot more than CAS levels.  Cost by itself drives far more decisions than most any other factor, most of the time, in my experience. Being "best" technically doesn't matter at all if someone simply cannot afford it.  What was 'best' at the time, to the clients with the four builds I mentioned was getting comparable performance for a *much* better price, even if it meant sacrificing slightly better CAS levels (which is indistinguishable for any practical purpose).

That's the part I don't get and can't agree with.  At least not where I live and with what I'm seeing (I suspect rest of Europe same as well, haven't checked).

The few 6000 CL36 AMD EXPO kits that I see available are all 32GB (2x16GB) and none is below 145,00€. To make 64GB that would require then two of those kits.
So, for 64GB (4x16GB) DDR5 6000 CL36 it would be then 290,00€(+).  ....and that's counting on your word that they will actually run with just AMD EXPO profile loaded.

The 6000 CL30 AMD EXPO kits that I see available, among them are various 64GB (2x32GB) and all of them seem to be between 235,00€ and 275,00€. 
So not only slightly better, but also slightly more affordable.

Plus, 2x sticks of RAM mean less power draw and heat in the system than 4x sticks of RAM.  
Which, as small as it may be, is also a practical advantage for same ammount of total capacity and similar performance.

My question now is....
Is there any performance gain for AM5 if using 4x sticks of RAM (versus 2x) that I never seen, heard or read about?  Because I honestly can't see any benefits with it.

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[Captain Chuck]

8 hours ago, LucShep said:

Around here, no store that I'm accustomated with is even using other 6000Mhz RAM for AM5 that is not CL30 for their system configurators.
For AMD EXPO kits, it's either 6000 C30 or the cheaper 5600 C36 and 5200 C40 lately. Nothing else gets the attention, it seems.
Could be lack of stock of different modules?  Or people simply overlooking those other kits?  I have no idea, but it is what it is.
Saw similar things happening with UK's SCAN (or was it Overclockers?) not too long ago.
 

 

Just to let you all know, the RAM is 32GB G.Skill RIPJAWS S5 6000MHz, CL36 

...and I'm in St Petersburg, Russia

[kksnowbear]

13 hours ago, LucShep said:

That's the part I don't get and can't agree with.

The unfortunate reality is that you 'don't get it' because you don't want to.  You're trying very hard to prove it cannot work, when I've assured you it *has* already been done. (Note I'm talking about lower cost here, having already conclusively addressed the question of four modules v two and CAS levels).

It happens that we agree:  If you go about it the way you've outlined, then you're absolutely right; it wouldn't make sense.  A client would be asked to pay more for the same or slightly less.  They could almost certainly do better on their own, strictly in that regard.

However - and as I've already explained - that's not what I do.

Since it would undoubtedly raise objections about being 'off-topic', 'hijacking' or result in (total BS) complaints that I'm only here to try and sell something (never mind other people on this site do so, exclusively, all the time lol)...

...I'm not going to go into extensive detail here about *how* it works, because that's more or less a business model which (like many) encompasses 'trade secrets'.

You'll just have to accept that it does happen, and that several members of this very forum have benefited from it, including multiple/repeat builds in some cases.

Fact is, I figure out how to make it happen, in a way/at a cost they are better off with.  They spend less for the same/comparable level of performance (and sometimes we're not talking a little bit less, either).  They're happy.  I'm happy.

Still not sure why it bothers you so, since those actually involved are all quite happy.

Edited June 15, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

8 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

Just to let you all know, the RAM is 32GB G.Skill RIPJAWS S5 6000MHz, CL36 

...and I'm in St Petersburg, Russia

Hi...unless I'm mistaken, the S5 G.Skill modules are Intel XMP as opposed to AMD EXPO.

Now, I'm not going to say it won't work - because factually I have done exactly that (used Intel XMP modules to fully populate an AM5 board with four 16G modules) and it worked.  Passed MemTest 8 and 10 at the rated speed and CAS levels, no problem, as well as everything else thrown at it so far.  Games, stress tests, benchmarks...everything works as expected.

*However*...if you have the choice going into it, you should definitely consider trying to get modules with AMD EXPO profiles, like the G.Skill Flare X5 that LucShep linked previously.  But it does not have to be CAS30 in two 32G modules, if you cannot get that where you are and/or if you just prefer to go with 32G for now for your own reasons (see below for more detail).

What it really depends on is what the motherboard supports, and unless I'm mistaken the modules you mentioned are included in the QVL for the Asrock board you cited earlier:

https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/B650 Pro RS/index.asp#MemoryRAP

AsRock cites quite a few XMP (as opposed to EXPO) modules as supported by this board, so clearly it will work.

To be accurate it appears AsRock has listed module/socket support as two in many cases, but that seems very dubious considering it also lists two modules for much slower/higher CAS modules (4800CL40, which is DDR5 'default' speed, and I think even AMD has said four modules are supported by the IMC).  Seems to me this is more likely what they physically had available to test, than what will actually work.

I can't say for sure because I've not tested that board at all (I actually don't use AsRock boards as a matter of practice).

I know in the Asus boards I've tested, 4x16G XMP modules 6000 CL36 works just fine.

Just be aware it doesn't have to be two 32G modules of CAS30 in order to work.  Four modules that are 6000 MTs CL36 will still work just fine, if it's all that's available where you are.  You'll never notice the difference in performance if it's not CAS30.

And you can save a little money now by using two 16G modules if you're happy with 32G...upgrade later by adding two more 16G modules if you feel you need to (it should be noted that many have asserted DCS will use >32G...but again budget/cost is usually *the* deciding factor!)

All this laid aside, if you're paying someone to do this then I'd suggest the key is to make absolutely sure they will stand behind what they sell, no questions asked.  

Edited June 15, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

21 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

Just to let you all know, the RAM is 32GB G.Skill RIPJAWS S5 6000MHz, CL36 

...and I'm in St Petersburg, Russia

Which is an Intel XMP based kit. It's not like it's a major problem but, IMO, it's a sign the seller could have done better. 

I don't think that four sticks of that RAM are guaranteed to work without problems on AM5.
It's a gamble (or risk) that may or may not be worth taking, when later adding two more sticks... But hey  it's your money and your rig, it's your call.

I'll stick to a previous point, which others here already pointed out as well - DCS is a friggin hog on RAM. 
You mentioned you play DCS in Multiplayer, 32GB will definitely become short in Multiplayer, even with solutions to help like a largely increased pagefile.
Which means you'll want 64GB of RAM sooner rather than later, that is certain. 

If you're spending good money on a brand new gaming PC, for DCS, then it makes all the sense to go for 64GB RAM right away. 

The best 64GB kits for AM5 platform and 7000 CPUs are 64GB (2x 32GB) 6000 CL30.
It makes sense to get one because price should not be a problem if compared to other 64GB kits with higher latency and/or slower speeds.

But then I have no idea how are the prices and stock of RAM kits in Russia.

My advice is to contact the seller.
Enquire about a possible change in the memory on that system (which they should test before delivering!) according to your wishes, for 64GB total (not 32GB), then make a deal. 
I do agree that you should make sure the seller stands behind what they sell (absolutely) so that you are assisted by them in case any problem arises.  

Edited June 16, 2024 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[Captain Chuck]

15 hours ago, LucShep said:

If you're spending good money on a brand new gaming PC, for DCS, then it makes all the sense to go for 64GB RAM right away. 

The best 64GB kits for AM5 platform and 7000 CPUs are 64GB (2x 32GB) 6000 CL30.
It makes sense to get one because price should not be a problem if compared to other 64GB kits with higher latency and/or slower speeds.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think I will just get the 64GB right away.

Also, another builder told me that in his opinion, if there is a weak link in this build its the 4070 and I might think about getting the 4070 Super instead of the regular 4070. I'm wondering how much actual difference there will be between the 4070 ti  and the 4070 S and just going with the 4070ti. Getting the Super may be a stretch for me. 

My first choice was for this rig was a 3080ti and then upgrade to the 50xx in several years, but here in this market 3080ti are harder to find and it's cheaper almost to get the 4070. 

[LucShep]

11 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

Also, another builder told me that in his opinion, if there is a weak link in this build its the 4070 and I might think about getting the 4070 Super instead of the regular 4070. I'm wondering how much actual difference there will be between the 4070 ti  and the 4070 S and just going with the 4070ti. Getting the Super may be a stretch for me. 

My first choice was for this rig was a 3080ti and then upgrade to the 50xx in several years, but here in this market 3080ti are harder to find and it's cheaper almost to get the 4070. 

And he is not wrong.

About the 3080Ti 12GB, better forget it. It may be a little bit faster than 4070 but it's now older generation, consumes a lot more power, runs much hotter, and price is inflated.

Between the RTX4070 12GB and the newer RTX4070 Super 12GB (which is better) there's about 15% difference in performance, price should reflect that.
The RTX4070Ti Super 16GB is far more expensive, but it's yet another 15% faster than 4070S (so, over 30% faster than the 4070) and has 16GB of VRAM, much better for DCS.
I think it's worth getting the 4070Ti Super 16GB if you have the budget.

Most manufacturer models are generally good, but some should be avoided because of mediocre cooling design (regardless of being 4070/Super, or 4070Ti Super).
EDIT: If you're interested in some sort of "comparison/examination" between manufacturer models, these videos may be worth a look:

• www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYRPRARMcf8
• www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5b2YF9POP4

To resume, it's better to avoid the lower tier models (red and orange, "C" and "F") in the list in there at the end of those videos.

Edited June 17, 2024 by LucShep
added video links

[HansPeter1981]

7 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

... if there is a weak link in this build its the 4070 and I might think about getting the 4070 Super instead of the regular 4070. I'm wondering how much actual difference there will be between the 4070 ti  and the 4070 S...

That's the first thing I thought when reading your initial post. Almost 2 pages of discussion about Ram latencies... and buying a 4070....

4070 4070s 7900XT here in Canada 730 830 930 CAD so 100$ apart. Buy cheap buy twice... I know you settled on 1440p but I would stretch as far as I can. 

I play at 4k Visual Range on Extreme, 4x MSAA in the Tomcat with TGT pod displayed lots of clouds trees 20000' I could easily see VRAM at 22GB... if you wondering about dropping 200$ on an additional 32 GB of Ram why not spending 200$ on 8GB more VRAM 

Just some food for thought.

Edited June 16, 2024 by HansPeter1981

[Captain Chuck]

On 6/17/2024 at 12:24 AM, LucShep said:

 

• www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYRPRARMcf8
• www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5b2YF9POP4

To resume, it's better to avoid the lower tier models (red and orange, "C" and "F") in the list in there at the end of those videos.

 

.... and the 4070  proposed for my build is at the bottom of the orange list ......  !!!

[Captain Chuck]

And another thing I just now realized (because I am so dumb when it comes to desktops as this will be my first) is that I just found out that the Motherborad suggested for this build won't work for me because I don't have Ethernet in my part of this ancient town so I will need a Motherboard with its own Wifi. I can only get the Internet here by using a portable Wifi/Router. A 4X3 inch flat gadget with a battery inside. The Motherboard will have to connect to that without using a cable.

Unless I waste a USB port on a donble or something.

Edited June 17, 2024 by Captain Chuck

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

.... and the 4070  proposed for my build is at the bottom of the orange list ......  !!!

oh boy..... 
Are you sure the other builder is not going to be a better alternative? 

 

2 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

And another thing I just now realized (because I am so dumb when it comes to desktops as this will be my first) is that I just found out that the Motherborad suggested for this build won't work for me because I don't have Ethernet in my part of this ancient town so I will need a Motherboard with its own Wifi. I can only get the Internet here by using a portable Wifi/Router. A 4X3 inch flat gadget with a battery inside. The Motherboard will have to connect to that without using a cable.

Unless I waste a USB port on a donble or something.

 

Personally, I'd favor a motherboard model with own WiFi support features from factory.

All of these motherboards that I'll list below have a wireless communication module (WiFi 6E) and are, in my opinion, the best choices for their price range.

B650 motherboard with WiFi 6E.
These are of same segment and identical price to the ASRock B650 Pro RS in your list.
B650 motherboards don't have support for PCIe5.0 in main PCIe slot. They may or may not have support for one Gen5 NVME drive. Hence the lower price.
This makes no difference for the hardware that you intend to use now. But in the near future GPUs will use it. And you may also wish to get a Gen5 NVME SSD in the future...

• MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk WIFI (215,00 €ur +/-)
• Gigabyte B650 Aorus Elite AX V2 (225,00 €ur +/-)

B650E motherboard with WiFi 6E.
These are more refined but also more expensive. B650E motherboards have PCIe5.0 support in main PCIe slot, along with the support for Gen5 NVME SSD.

• ASRock B650E PG Riptide WiFi (250,00 €ur +/-)
• ASRock B650E Steel Legend WiFi (260,00 €ur +/-)
• ASUS ROG Strix B650E-F Gaming WiFi (280,00 €ur +/-)

 

Edited June 18, 2024 by LucShep
added links

[Aapje]

On 6/16/2024 at 5:09 PM, Captain Chuck said:

Also, another builder told me that in his opinion, if there is a weak link in this build its the 4070 and I might think about getting the 4070 Super instead of the regular 4070. I'm wondering how much actual difference there will be between the 4070 ti  and the 4070 S and just going with the 4070ti. Getting the Super may be a stretch for me. 

My first choice was for this rig was a 3080ti and then upgrade to the 50xx in several years, but here in this market 3080ti are harder to find and it's cheaper almost to get the 4070. 

I would not get the regular 4070 Ti, since it does not have extra VRAM, so the longevity is not any better. The prices are unlikely to match the benefits.

The more you pay now, the less quickly you can upgrade again (unless you increase your budget). With GDDR7 coming soon and 3 GB chips coming a bit later, I foresee some solid performance improvements with the 50-series, but that they will age relatively poorly due to the low VRAM amounts. Perhaps we'll get those 3 GB chips and thus 50% more memory for the 50-series Super refresh in 2026, or else almost certainly with the 60-series in 2027. I think that those cards will have better longevity than the current offerings.

But I think that you are overthinking it a bit. Both the 4070 and 4070 Super are great cards to run DCS with at 1440p. With these you should be able to last until 2027 or so.

[Captain Chuck]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:47 AM, LucShep said:

oh boy..... 
Are you sure the other builder is not going to be a better alternative? 
 

 

 

This is build another offered: What do you all think about this compared the original in my first post? Does this motherboard have enough M.2 slots? I'm hoping for 3. Is this one just too low on VRAM. I don't do VR but I do Multipayer servers. 
 

1.  Intel Core I5-14600KF, frequency TurboVoost 5.3 Ghz, 14 cores and 20 threads;
2. Motherboard: MSI B760 PARKING РLUS WIFI DDR5;
3. CPU cooling: ID-COOLING ZOOM 240 XT V2;
4. RAM: DDR5 64GB;
5. Video card: RTX 3070 Ti 8GB;
6. Power supply: Deersool PF700 80+;

[mikko.1842]

2 hours ago, Captain Chuck said:

1. Video card: RTX 3070 Ti 8GB;

Erm, I can't see the point in buying a 3070 Ti in 2024... especially when the "simple" 4070 is 14% faster, with 12 GB VRAM.

It is not rare that DCS uses 10 GB VRAM in 1080p... imagine in 1440p...

Edited June 20, 2024 by mikko.1842