Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Parrotnut]

12 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

How could it do that when the real forces are far beyond (~10x) what the stick can produce?

Up to ~120 Nm of force in the real plane? Wow....

 

If you ask the AI, it gives a lot of disclaimers ans explanations. To my understanding is the real F-16 stick up to 25 lbs ( 33 Nm ) of force pitch and up to 17 lbs ( 23 Nm ) Roll.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Parrotnut

[Scott-S6]

5 hours ago, Parrotnut said:

Up to ~120 Nm of force in the real plane? Wow....

 

If you ask the AI, it gives a lot of disclaimers ans explanations. To my understanding is the real F-16 stick up to 25 lbs ( 33 Nm ) of force pitch and up to 17 lbs ( 23 Nm ) Roll.

Most modern military aircraft are up to 40KG. The AH64 is high 30s with a stick approx 0.3m long. The AB9 is delivering 4kg at the end of a 0.3m stick (if moza's numbers can be trusted). The F16 is a poor comparison to make in Nm because the very short stick drastically reduces the numbers.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Stellatny45]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:42 AM, Scott-S6 said:

The AH64 is high 30s with a stick approx 0.3m long.

Where did you get that number from?

[propeler]

On 12/22/2024 at 8:31 AM, Parrotnut said:

Up to ~120 Nm of force in the real plane? Wow....

Here is testing data from soviet book. It is measured force in kilograms to displace stick per 1 centimeter. Left - pitch. Right - roll. For instance Me109G at speed 400km/h require you to pull around 6 kilos to move stick 1cm. 

 

Here is another graph. It shows how much force you need to pull in kg for rotation speed 1 radian per second. 

So yes. Force on planes could be very high. null

Edited December 25, 2024 by propeler

[propeler]

On 12/22/2024 at 10:42 AM, Scott-S6 said:

Most modern military aircraft are up to 40KG

Let's be honest, in extremes. Typical load curve will be closer to this:

[Scott-S6]

13 hours ago, propeler said:

Let's be honest, in extremes. Typical load curve will be closer to this:

Even based on your example for an unspecified aircraft (odd that you wouldn't mention what aircraft this is for) the AB9 is way off the correct forces with any decent length of extension. If we go with a (rather short) 10cm extension then it's doing ~6kg versus the 16 in your graph. For a 20cm it's doing 4KG Vs 16.

Hornet needs about 19KG aft pull, M2000 needs a 40KG aft pull for max pitch input, just for example. None of the FFB sticks available are anywhere close to realistic forces. 

With a 20cm extension (30cm stick including grip), the AB9 can't even provide enough force for a 2G pull in the hornet.

This doesn't mean that it's useless but don't pretend that it's generating realistic forces.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Scott-S6]

13 hours ago, propeler said:

Here is testing data from soviet book. It is measured force in kilograms to displace stick per 1 centimeter. Left - pitch. Right - roll. For instance Me109G at speed 400km/h require you to pull around 6 kilos to move stick 1cm. 

 

Here is another graph. It shows how much force you need to pull in kg for rotation speed 1 radian per second. 

So yes. Force on planes could be very high. null

Exactly - to simulate the forces needed for the first cm of moment you're maxing out the AB9's forces. These forces are higher than modern hydraulically assisted aircraft but they are still considerable.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Scott-S6

[propeler]

2 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

None of the FFB sticks available are anywhere close to realistic forces. 

You are not right  You just do not know about it ;). FFBeast is close. On my mechanics design it easily makes 15Kg on 200mm extender. With mech from Victor it makes 28Kg force on full length stick. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by propeler

[Thadiun Okona]

4 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

Even based on your example for an unspecified aircraft (odd that you wouldn't mention what aircraft this is for) the AB9 is way off the correct forces with any decent length of extension. If we go with a (rather short) 10cm extension then it's doing ~6kg versus the 16 in your graph. For a 20cm it's doing 4KG Vs 16.

Hornet needs about 19KG aft pull, M2000 needs a 40KG aft pull for max pitch input, just for example. None of the FFB sticks available are anywhere close to realistic forces. 

With a 20cm extension (30cm stick including grip), the AB9 can't even provide enough force for a 2G pull in the hornet.

This doesn't mean that it's useless but don't pretend that it's generating realistic forces.

So many people fixate on 1:1 forces without considering how miserable it would be in many cases and how unnecessary it is for a good experience. Most cases would require replicating the seating 100% as well due to ergonomics of the design and you would also need to be strapped in the same way because that's part of req for  pulling/pushing those forces. This seems like one of those things people spend too much time wondering if they could without wondering if they should

[Scott-S6]

19 hours ago, propeler said:

You are not right  You just do not know about it ;). FFBeast is close. On my mechanics design it easily makes 15Kg on 200mm extender. With mech from Victor it makes 28Kg force on full length stick. 

So not the 40KG need for the M2000 then?

16 hours ago, Thadiun Okona said:

So many people fixate on 1:1 forces without considering how miserable it would be in many cases and how unnecessary it is for a good experience. Most cases would require replicating the seating 100% as well due to ergonomics of the design and you would also need to be strapped in the same way because that's part of req for  pulling/pushing those forces. This seems like one of those things people spend too much time wondering if they could without wondering if they should

I don't disagree but I'm not the one asking AI to make a profile for the AB9 that replicates real world forces, something that the AB9 is patently incapable of doing. (And even if it could, he'd need to tell the AI how long his stick setup is...)

Edited December 27, 2024 by Scott-S6

[propeler]

1 hour ago, Scott-S6 said:

So not the 40KG need for the M2000 then?

I can manufacture the base with 40 KG force  Just nobody ask so high forces. But it is possible to do. Will be slightly bigger because require higher reduction ratio and wider belt. But doable.

Edited December 26, 2024 by propeler

[Panzerlang]

My FFBeast should be on its way soon and I have no intention of running it at max force. The advantage is I'll be able to run it at max Moza equivalent but without triggering overheat protection.

[Nightdare]

16 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

M2000 needs a 40KG aft pull for max pitch input

Then that has got to be the lousiest fly by wire system ever put on an aircraft

[propeler]

4 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Then that has got to be the lousiest fly by wire system ever put on an aircraft

I would not say so. It's reasonable. It's just spring stop force which you need to overcome normal mode. In normal mode it will be around 60% of it. Around 24Kg. Pretty ok for combat jet control stick.

[Parrotnut]

17 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

 

I don't disagree but I'm not the one asking AI to make a profile for the AB9 that replicates real world forces, something that the AB9 is patently incapable of doing. (And even if it could, he'd need to tell the AI how long his stick setup is...)

And even the AI understood that i was asking for settings that are within the limits of the AB9....

Edited December 27, 2024 by Parrotnut

[Nightdare]

6 hours ago, propeler said:

 

I would not say so. It's reasonable. It's just spring stop force which you need to overcome normal mode. In normal mode it will be around 60% of it. Around 24Kg. Pretty ok for combat jet control stick.

 

This image doesn't show any actual values, nor do we have any indication 'normal' control on the M2000 is 240N
 

Moving 40kg with 1 arm isn't easy (I should know, been hauling 30kg parcels for over a decade and that was with 2 arms) Pilots are trained well, but no powerlifters

And with 400N stick force, flying an M2000 in a dogfight would be the same as me in a 200m dash:, I might be surprisingly quick for a 30-year smoker, but a useless pile once over the finish line

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Nightdare

[propeler]

1 hour ago, Nightdare said:

And with 400N stick force, flying an M2000 in a dogfight would be the same as me in a 200m dash:, I might be surprisingly quick for a 30-year smoker, but a useless pile once over the finish line

Nobody fly in reality like in DCS. It is possible only in DCS to turn off Over G blackout and pull stick constantly to the max. 

[Nightdare]

17 minutes ago, propeler said:

Nobody fly in reality like in DCS. It is possible only in DCS to turn off Over G blackout and pull stick constantly to the max. 

 

I'm not talking about Blackouts, I'm talking about the apparently extreme force needed to maneuver the real M2000 when things get hairy

This is not about expecting FFB to supply the actual force needed to move a stick, this is about 40kg stick force being unmanageable in real life situations

[Vladinsky]

20 hours ago, Nightdare said:

 

I'm not talking about Blackouts, I'm talking about the apparently extreme force needed to maneuver the real M2000 when things get hairy

This is not about expecting FFB to supply the actual force needed to move a stick, this is about 40kg stick force being unmanageable in real life situations

For the Mirage 2000, pulling to the elastic stop with a force of 10kg commands 9G. To overcome the elastic stop requires roughly 25kg and pulling all the way back to the hard stop with a force of 40kg will command 11G.

[freehand]

On 12/27/2024 at 3:09 PM, Nightdare said:

 

This image doesn't show any actual values, nor do we have any indication 'normal' control on the M2000 is 240N
 

Moving 40kg with 1 arm isn't easy (I should know, been hauling 30kg parcels for over a decade and that was with 2 arms) Pilots are trained well, but no powerlifters

And with 400N stick force, flying an M2000 in a dogfight would be the same as me in a 200m dash:, I might be surprisingly quick for a 30-year smoker, but a useless pile once over the finish line

 

Interesting what 30kg parcels you move ?

[Dogmanbird]

is anyone noticing any cogging, with very small movements?

[Nightdare]

On 12/29/2024 at 9:02 PM, freehand said:

Interesting what 30kg parcels you move ?

Moved, I now plan Logistics

Household goods/Kitchen accessoires

EU rules allow a maximum of 32 kg (Express services allow even more), now you should lift those with 2 people, but that doesn't get the job done quicker when you have more work than time until pickup

[crispy12]

Received my MOZA AB9 2 days ago from a local supplier.

Quite happy with the overall experience. Mounting it was the most difficult step, and took me about 2 hours of trial and error. I 3d printed an aluminum profile adapter plate in PETG-CF for mounting to 4040 aluminum profile using TM Warthog mounting pattern.

Took a while and a bit of tweaking to get satisfactory FFB. Most old school jets benefit from using the Moza F14B preset. I particular enjoy the F16 preset as well as the helicopter preset. I like the experience more than using Winwing's MFSSB stick, immediately i get much better quality of fine control for formation flying, AAR. The novelty factor is also quite entertaining. Hovering, flight with helicopters is incredibly enjoyable. 

My main qualms are with the quality of the stick MH19 (so far my DMS hat has fallen off, but I managed to slot it back). The hat depress function is absent as well which is quite infuriating as AV8B and few other modules utilise the hat depress. The actual functionality and hardware is present but Moza did not wire it up or implement the software which is a big shame.

Edited January 5 by crispy12

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

The Cockpit software updated, all the old user-made profiles/presets are not working at all. But it seems there are more profiles and more sims supported.

[Nightdare]

19 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

The Cockpit software updated, all the old user-made profiles/presets are not working at all. But it seems there are more profiles and more sims supported.

...But does it support virpil analogue brake levers yet?