Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[rapid]

Well said sir.

The Moza system looks pretty good and is I am interested in.

Moza say the FFB might be released  4th quarter.

 

Edited June 24, 2024 by rapid

[Aapje]

10 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

@Aapje Are you talking about FFB effects like recoil, bumpy runway etc? I'm not interested in that at all. I want magnetic brake/force trim in helicopters, stick shaker/wind over wings/trim displacement etc. in aircrafts. All those are already available for my MS SW FFB2, and should be for any other FFB base released.
The freeware MB-339 came with pretty good FFB implementation, except bumpy runways. It was hilarious. The stick would move back and forth when you moved from concrete slab to concrete slab. Can't remember if that was passed on to the pay ware version, but I'm positive it's gone now.

I strongly suggest you take a look at the VPForce/Rhino manual, where there is an extensive list of the things that the software (can) simulate for DCS and other sims. Some of these are effects that you may not be interested in, but there are also more basic force that are not implemented in some/all of the sims. And the software also has the ability to mimic some FFB forces for modules that do not support FFB.

Of course, the big sim, MSFS, which is crucial to make FFB hardware sell in sufficient volume, does not currently support FFB natively, although I've been told that it is on the roadmap for MSFS 2024.

3 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

It will allow simmers to feel the differences between airplane designs/eras.

Indeed. It opens up a whole dimension of 'feeling' the plane, which makes planes much less similar to each other, and much improves important factors to airplane control like preserving energy (you feel when you are inducing drag) and preventing a stall (you feel the buffeting).

On the civilian side of things, it also allows replicating the safety systems build in certain airliners, which are fly by wire, but the actual airplane uses FFB to sent information to the pilot.

[Nightdare]

9 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

- most 1940s aircraft were usually direct linked to control surfaces and so provided plenty of resistance and feedback

 

When I retired my G940, the first thing I missed (and still want back) was the flutter in the stick when pulling a Spitfire near stall speed 

 

13 hours ago, Aapje said:

With their sales channel and brand name, TM don't have to be ahead. Just not too far behind.

 

But at what price point?

I won't see them offering a new tech Hotas at the prices their competitors charge, just their AVA stick  and base is at 5 bills, I wouldn't want to know what an added FFB option would cost

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, Nightdare said:

But at what price point?

I won't see them offering a new tech Hotas at the prices their competitors charge, just their AVA stick  and base is at 5 bills, I wouldn't want to know what an added FFB option would cost

What TM really needs soon is an improved entry-level stick, since the new Winwing Ursa Minor editions are absolutely spanking the T.16000M. I think that it would be pretty easy for Winwing to come out with a stripped down throttle that costs no more than the standard price for the TWCS. At that point, they can offer a HOTAS set with a combo discount that will absolutely spank TM in the low budget category. I would be surprised if Winwing is not working on that right now.

Right now there is no evidence that a low budget FFB option is in the works and it may not be needed for a few years when the FFB infrastructure has been laid out and more casual simmers really want FFB.

The FFB2 cost $109 in 1998, which is about $212 in 2024 dollars. I can see them sell a modern, basic FFB entry level stick (no separate stick and base) for something similar. For example, instead of the 57BLF03 that the Rhino uses, they can use the 57BLF01 that is a third as strong. You can get those for $30 on ebay from China, so getting them in large volume directly from the factory should cost no more than half that, so $30 for a set.

Then you take the Ursa Minor that they can sell for $110 and add the $30 to it. You are only at $140. So you have a large gap of $72 before you get to that $212 price point. That leaves a lot of room for some extra electronics, a basic power supply, some extra plastic for the housing, extra shipping costs and extra profit margin. And I would personally suggest they sell it for $249 or so, so that would leave another $37.

Of course, as I said before, investing in this only makes sense once the higher-priced FFB offerings have been proven to sell well and it is clear that a low-budget FFB stick would sell in large numbers.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Aapje

[Nightdare]

4 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Of course, as I said before, investing in this only makes sense once the higher-priced FFB offerings have been proven to sell well and it is clear that a low-budget FFB stick would sell in large numbers.

 

I don't think we'll ever see FFB+Budget offering together, but I'll admit lower price neck-thru guitars showed me otherwise (but that is a larger market)

[MAXsenna]

@Aapje No worries. Been following Valmis in that other thread for years.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[propeler]

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

The FFB2 cost $109 in 1998, which is about $212 in 2024 dollars. I can see them sell a modern, basic FFB entry level stick (no separate stick and base) for something similar. For example, instead of the 57BLF03 that the Rhino uses, they can use the 57BLF01 that is a third as strong. You can get those for $30 on ebay from China, so getting them in large volume directly from the factory should cost no more than half that, so $30 for a set.

Then you take the Ursa Minor that they can sell for $110 and add the $30 to it. You are only at $140. So you have a large gap of $72 before you get to that $212 price point. That leaves a lot of room for some extra electronics, a basic power supply, some extra plastic for the housing, extra shipping costs and extra profit margin. And I would personally suggest they sell it for $249 or so, so that would leave another $37.

I bet for something closer to 700$ At least not less then 500$ without the grip. 

You forgot about the fact that price of device is not only the price of containing parts - it is price of workforce, salary of management, marketing costs, taxes, licenses and other costs. And finally - profit. You did not count it.

Thrustmaster ava base cost €279.99.And it is normal conventional spring loaded base. WinWing Orion2 MFSSB $389.90 for force sense.... No way FFB will cost less even from China company. 

Edited June 25, 2024 by propeler

[Aapje]

@propeler

I started with the price of the Ursa Minor since that already includes all the basic costs for a joystick.

And I don't think that you really get what I mean. My idea is that they make something similar to the FFB2, so with integrated joystick, which saves costs. It would also be much smaller than a Rhino-style device, which saves material, labor and needs less torque due to a smaller lever arm.

And I'm pretty sure that Chinese factory labor is a lot cheaper than 'propellor labor'.

Note that Winwing manages to sell the Ursa Minor for substantially less than the VKB gladiator, so prices can get really low if they really go for lower costs.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Aapje

[propeler]

Market of cheap plastic devices is oversaturated. Market of FFB  - no. Them do not need to make cheap device - them just need to make it a little cheaper than competitors. And it is not me or VPForce. We are too smal fishes for monsters. WinWing and Moza will compete each other to get the market. And who will tell the price first - will lose the game :) As who will be the second just set price 50$ lower  That's how market works. 500$ is  my very very optimistic lower boundary. There is a high chance that it will be closer to Brunner base in price - just because them CAN to  put any price on it! Just more marketing,  pay some youtube influencers and people will be buying it on any price. Just look into simracing market. Devices there cost much-much higher(being much simpler) - and people buying them. 

 

Edited June 25, 2024 by propeler

[Mr_sukebe]

Focusing on cost to make is IMO not the approach likely to be taken.

Core question for them is what they can sell it for.  They know it needs to be less than Brunner, but with little or no competition can get away with charging what they want, so long as it at least pays for itself.

If you want a better example, have a think about your average CPU.  At the end of the day, it’s just a small amount of sand that’s been melted and then reformed.  Material costs are pretty much negligible.  Sure, there’s massive costs in building the process to manufacturer them and also design and test them, but that’s NOT the cost to make.

With ref to the AB9, if we were to guess $700-800, that’s probably their ceiling area and if it’s below that, then great.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Mr_sukebe

[propeler]

42 minutes ago, Aapje said:

My idea is that they make something similar to the FFB2, so with integrated joystick

It requires to develop mechanics from scratch. It is totally another cost. 

 

42 minutes ago, Aapje said:

It would also be much smaller than a Rhino-style device

WinWing and Moza showed their devices. It is already not what you describing. Nobody will be throwing away existing design. Next 2-3 years Moza and WinWing will be selling what showed. And only if it will show huge sales - will start working on other devices.

42 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Note that Winwing manages to sell the Ursa Minor for substantially less than the VKB gladiator

Because it is just a clone. Cloning successful devices and playing game "invest in something with uncertain future" are totally different thingth

 

Serious devices from WinWing are not cheap in any case.

Edited June 25, 2024 by propeler

[jww123]

Another entry into force feedback is flitesim. They are releasing force feedback rudder pedals, yoke and joystick as well as numerous civilian flight sim control panels. The prices they mentioned at Flight Sim expo for the flight controls  were amazing, around $100 or less.

see  https://flitesim.com/

EDIT:

Looks like the prices for the yoke will be about a grand to  1,599. They said the price of the FFB joystick base was TBD, they hinted that it would be "competitive". Given that the Brunner is about $1,400 I guess maybe about $1,000. Too pricey imho, maybe for a commercial flight school but not for home consumer.

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by jww123

[propeler]

20 minutes ago, jww123 said:

The prices they mentioned at Flight Sim expo for the flight controls were amazing, around $100 or less.

You've missed 1 digit in the price  

Edited June 25, 2024 by propeler

[rapid]

You can see some of the force in play in this video clip probably not balanced right but you can see the force in play here.

 

[Aapje]

5 hours ago, propeler said:

Market of cheap plastic devices is oversaturated.

I strongly disagree. I see a ton of people clamoring for cheaper quality options on the HOTAS subreddit, but the only sensible advice for most was to skip the obsolete low end and go for the mid-end (VKB Gladiator). Only now with the Ursa Minor do we see a low-budget stick that actually has a good price/performance.

The previous options were 15 year and older stuff with obsolete technology.

And for throttles, the only half-decent option is the TWCS, which has rather shocking plastic on rails sliders. Only the number and the layout of the controls is somewhat decent. There is no real competition for the TWCS on the low end so far. I see an obvious opening for a one-engine throttle with no controls on the base, no detents, etc. I absolutely think that this can be less than $150 if it is designed for cheap manufacture.

5 hours ago, propeler said:

Market of FFB  - no. Them do not need to make cheap device - them just need to make it a little cheaper than competitors.

This is not really how pricing works. There's the supply/demand curve, which means that even without competitors, the optimal price is not infinite dollars/euros.

5 hours ago, propeler said:

WinWing and Moza will compete each other to get the market. And who will tell the price first - will lose the game :)

You ignore quality, marketing, support, availability/logistics, etc. There are more ways to win/compete than just on price.

5 hours ago, propeler said:

There is a high chance that it will be closer to Brunner base in price - just because them CAN to  put any price on it! Just more marketing,  pay some youtube influencers and people will be buying it on any price.

No, they won't. Asking $1500 would be a big mistake and would kill their product.

5 hours ago, propeler said:

Just look into simracing market. Devices there cost much-much higher(being much simpler) - and people buying them.

There are huge sales in the simracing market of Logitech belt-drive devices and the lower end DD setups. Sales are like a pyramid where the top-end gear sells way less than the cheaper gear. And if you follow the simracing crowd, you know that people rarely go directly for the high-end gear. They nearly always start at the lower end and only upgrade once they really get hooked and learn the huge benefits of FFB for a moderate price. The high-end stuff would sell way less if there wasn't the lower-end stuff acting as a gateway drug.

Your view of the market gets distorted if you spend time in the enthusiast forums. The people you find there are not representative for the market.

With only the most expensive hardware, you find that even the developers get priced out of the hardware and they just don't provide software support.

Quote

It requires to develop mechanics from scratch. It is totally another cost. 

1. Copy the basic design of the FFB2, but replace the pots with hall sensors.

2. Put modern controls on the stick (which can be done just by reusing/copying the Ursa Minor or any other modern stick).

3. Go through the design and see if you can reduce costs/increase quality by using more modern production methods or better components

4. Sell for whatever the market can bear

5. Profit

Quote

WinWing and Moza showed their devices. It is already not what you describing. Nobody will be throwing away existing design. Next 2-3 years Moza and WinWing will be selling what showed. And only if it will show huge sales - will start working on other devices.

Yes, I'm looking ahead to what these companies should do to create that pipeline of people going from the cheaper to the expensive stuff, once they believe that FFB is viable for the mass market.

Again, smart companies are like drug dealers. They get you hooked on the cheaper stuff and then entice you to spend the big bucks for diminishing returns. The simracing companies are masters at this. Moza will sell you bases from 3 to 21 Nm and steering wheels from $129 to $675.

Quote

Serious devices from WinWing are not cheap in any case.

I think that your standards are too high. The mass market is not looking for serious devices. They want value for money.

Winwing is now selling an $80 joystick with few buttons that is great for basic flying in MSFS. They sell a $110 stick that is perfectly viable for DCS and other flight sims. That is cheap and beats the pants off Trustmaster in price/performance.

What I want is for people to be able to get into flight simming for cheap, so they give it a chance in the first place, and then get hooked. Then ideally then can upgrade to a low-end FFB stick later on. And then they can go down the rabbit hole and build a rig/simpit, or they can forever be weekend warriors slapping that joystick on their desk. All good...for all of us, as the more flight simmers there are, the more games/modules/addons/hardware we all get.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Aapje

[Nightdare]

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

I strongly disagree. I see a ton of people clamoring for cheaper quality options on the HOTAS subreddit, but the only sensible advice for most was to skip the obsolete low end and go for the mid-end (VKB Gladiator). Only now with the Ursa Minor do we see a low-budget stick that actually has a good price/performance.

 

There are a ton of cheap options available, people just want a complete flight setup for $100, that's not gonna happen

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

The previous options were 15 year and older stuff with obsolete technology.

And for throttles, the only half-decent option is the TWCS, which has rather shocking plastic on rails sliders. Only the number and the layout of the controls is somewhat decent. There is no real competition for the TWCS on the low end so far. I see an obvious opening for a one-engine throttle with no controls on the base, no detents, etc. I absolutely think that this can be less than $150 if it is designed for cheap manufacture.

 

You get what you pay for, IMO the TWCS at about that price point where "budget" begins

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

This is not really how pricing works. There's the supply/demand curve, which means that even without competitors, the optimal price is not infinite dollars/euros.

 

You ignore quality, marketing, support, availability/logistics, etc. There are more ways to win/compete than just on price.

 

That is not how pricing works, THE question is always: "How much are people willing to pay for this product"

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

No, they won't. Asking $1500 would be a big mistake and would kill their product.

 

Which is why the FFB market a long time was empty, it was not possible to produce a product for the price people were willing to pay

Look at the lifespan of the Logitech G940, they basically made it until they got their R&D/Setup out of it and killed it

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

There are huge sales in the simracing market of Logitech belt-drive devices and the lower end DD setups. Sales are like a pyramid where the top-end gear sells way less than the cheaper gear. And if you follow the simracing crowd, you know that people rarely go directly for the high-end gear. They nearly always start at the lower end and only upgrade once they really get hooked and learn the huge benefits of FFB for a moderate price. The high-end stuff would sell way less if there wasn't the lower-end stuff acting as a gateway drug.

 

Sim Racing is a market much, MUCH bigger that Flightsim

A wheel and pedal can be had for $250, whereas a full TWCS setup is available at $220, I'm still betting more budget wheels are being sold

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

1. Copy the basic design of the FFB2, but replace the pots with hall sensors.

2. Put modern controls on the stick (which can be done just by reusing/copying the Ursa Minor or any other modern stick).

3. Go through the design and see if you can reduce costs/increase quality by using more modern production methods or better components

4. Sell for whatever the market can bear

5. Profit

 

Take the price of the Ursa Major, add extra production costs, molds, electronics, software design, packaging, distribution + profit margin

...you just made a FFB flightstick costing $300+ made of cheap plastics and electronics

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

Yes, I'm looking ahead to what these companies should do to create that pipeline of people going from the cheaper to the expensive stuff, once they believe that FFB is viable for the mass market.

 

It is viable, just not at budget price, and not with too many competitors

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

Again, smart companies are like drug dealers. They get you hooked on the cheaper stuff and then entice you to spend the big bucks for diminishing returns. The simracing companies are masters at this. Moza will sell you bases from 3 to 21 Nm and steering wheels from $129 to $675.

 

You can't simrace with just a wheel

Their cheapest FFB setup that can get you into the game, which is just the wheel and base, is $729

...still would need a $180 pedal set to get the least bit of actual simracing feeling (Might as well get a decent USB controller for $100 without it)

That's $900, just to get started,... where's your Moza budget build?

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

I think that your standards are too high. The mass market is not looking for serious devices. They want value for money.

Winwing is now selling an $80 joystick with few buttons that is great for basic flying in MSFS. They sell a $110 stick that is perfectly viable for DCS and other flight sims. That is cheap and beats the pants off Trustmaster in price/performance.

 

A whole stick+throttle+pedals setup from TM buys you the TWCS for $220, You're not gonna get much cheaper than that

 

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

What I want is for people to be able to get into flight simming for cheap, so they give it a chance in the first place, and then get hooked. Then ideally then can upgrade to a low-end FFB stick later on. And then they can go down the rabbit hole and build a rig/simpit, or they can forever be weekend warriors slapping that joystick on their desk. All good...for all of us, as the more flight simmers there are, the more games/modules/addons/hardware we all get.

 

Define "cheap", now reflect that on "realistic"

[Aapje]

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

There are a ton of cheap options available, people just want a complete flight setup for $100, that's not gonna happen

Again, I'm referring to price/performance, not just price. The quality is lacking in those cheap options.

What I want is for there to be a solid options for as low a price point as possible. Of course there are always people who want products for even less than that, but they cannot reasonably complain when it is not possible to produce somewhat decent quality at their preferred price point.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

You get what you pay for, IMO the TWCS at about that price point where "budget" begins

'You get what you pay for' is just a cliché. The very fact that the Ursa Minor was able to offer much better quality for a similar price as the T.16000M shows that people didn't in fact get the quality they could get for that price point, and still, they don't get what they pay for from TM when it comes to joysticks. I believe that the same is true for the TWCS and that for a similar price point, better products can be sold.

Keep in mind that the flight sim market was in decline for a while, causing a lack of investment in equipment. Things changed and flight simming is now a lot more popular again.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

That is not how pricing works, THE question is always: "How much are people willing to pay for this product"

Not sure why you are phrasing an agreement with what I said as if it were a disagreement. I was pointing out that propelor ignored the demand curve and merely referred to the supply curve (given his argument that only relative prices of products matter).

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Which is why the FFB market a long time was empty, it was not possible to produce a product for the price people were willing to pay

The actual reason was an overal decline in demand, which made all flight sim equipment a less interesting market for companies.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Sim Racing is a market much, MUCH bigger that Flightsim

A wheel and pedal can be had for $250, whereas a full TWCS setup is available at $220, I'm still betting more budget wheels are being sold

You can actually get a wheel and pedals for less than $100, but without FFB and you'll be better off with a controller.

So this is a pretty useless comparison when you don't factor in price/performance. And price/performance at the low-end of the simracing market has actually improved a lot in the recent past, so why would the same not be possible for flight simming?

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Take the price of the Ursa Major, add extra production costs, molds, electronics, software design, packaging, distribution + profit margin
...you just made a FFB flightstick costing $300+ made of cheap plastics and electronics

It's called the Ursa Minor, not Major. And you completely fail to explain why those extra costs would push the price from $110 to $300. The entire FSSB2 was almost sold for that price difference, compensating for inflation. So why do you think that a new iteration would have to cost so much more?

I don't think that your stab in the dark at the required price makes sense.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

It is viable, just not at budget price, and not with too many competitors

Of course, at the low end there is less room for competition. But that doesn't mean that it can't be a solid earner for a company or two. You also completely ignore my point that the product would not just earn money directly, but would result in more sales for the more expensive products from the same brand.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

You can't simrace with just a wheel

Their cheapest FFB setup that can get you into the game, which is just the wheel and base, is $729

You are about a factor of two off, with the new R3 bundle being sold for $399 (and that does include pedals). This is rather illustrative for the extent to which I think you overestimate the required costs.

Note that the R3 is designed for upselling and reuse of components, not the lowest price, with its detachable wheels. Cammus shows that you can make a direct drive systems even cheaper with an all-in-one design.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

...still would need a $180 pedal set to get the least bit of actual simracing feeling (Might as well get a decent USB controller for $100 without it)

Not needed for the category of simmers who care more about having fun than optimizing their times. The steering wheel FFB tends to produce the fun, the pedals are more about good lap times.

Note that I've ignored pedals for flight simming completely, as a sufficiently fun experience can be had in flight simming with a twist stick as well. Of course, flight simming is not as good without rudder pedals and racing not as nice without a good set of pedals, but realistically, a low-end setup can do with poor racing pedals for sim racing and without rudder pedals for flight simming.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

A whole stick+throttle+pedals setup from TM buys you the TWCS for $220, You're not gonna get much cheaper than that

It's a poor setup that doesn't provide value for money, in my opinion. I would advise people to instead get the Ursa Minor if they don't have to deal with excessive import taxes and then combine that with a (second-hand or discounted) TWCS or a new VKB STECS MiniPlus or a Virpil CDT-VMAX.

But that would mean a bigger expenditure at first (although it should last longer and have better resale value). I hope that a new throttle will be released at the $100-$150 price point that is actually good at throttling, which ironically, is where the TWCS is weakest at. Note that I see the TWCS being sold for 85 euros in my country, which is with 21% taxes included, so a new low end competitor for $150 would actually allow for a decent amount of extra production costs.

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Define "cheap", now reflect that on "realistic"

Well, your 'realistic' sim racing price are actually about twice the actually realistic prices, so I'm pretty confident that you overestimate the costs.

Edited June 26, 2024 by Aapje

[Mr_sukebe]

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but as you do, I did some research yesterday about the quality and reliability of the Moza racing FFB wheels.

Whilst the reviews were generally very positive, feedback was..."mixed", a bit like WinWing here.  Some users had nothing but praise, some clearly were very unimpressed with the reliability and support.

I have to say that I'm hoping that Virpil bring something out.  I have more faith in their kit.

[Aapje]

@Mr_sukebe

Keep in mind that Moza only started selling gear at the end of 2021, so they are a very young company that has been growing very fast. Of course they had growing pains, but they've really been very responsive to criticism. They are not a top-tier brand, but more of a mid-end company that is expanding more towards the lower end (competing with Fanatec, who are in a similar position, but who messed up a lot recently). Virpil is a top-tier brand that is now apparently trying to expand into the mid-tier (with the Cadet vs Expert branding).

But I've been trying to dampen expectations a little by making a few 'downer' comments, since I think that the FFB sticks are going to disappoint a bit early on anyway, at least from the software side. Moza is a little bit on the weak side with the software for their simracing (not hugely so, but just a little less), so I don't expect them to blast out of the gate with great software for the FFB base.

And the game and module makers will also need time to adapt their code.

Then again, it's not necessarily that hard to make the FFB sticks work as a high-end non-FFB stick (with very solid damping) even if the actual FFB effects are lacking/missing, so buying into FFB early is not necessarily a bad idea if you manage your expectations. I'd personally rather buy an early FFB base rather than a highend non-FFB base, if that choice was presented to me.

Edited June 26, 2024 by Aapje

[Nightdare]

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Again, I'm referring to price/performance, not just price. The quality is lacking in those cheap options.

 

No it isn't, that's why it's 'cheap'

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

What I want is for there to be a solid options for as low a price point as possible. Of course there are always people who want products for even less than that, but they cannot reasonably complain when it is not possible to produce somewhat decent quality at their preferred price point.

 

That last line is key

Cheap work is not good/Good work is not cheap

You can't have your cake and eat it, sorry

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

'You get what you pay for' is just a cliché.

 

Not really, these days, in a lot of markets, you're getting even less than what you previously paid for

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

 

The very fact that the Ursa Minor was able to offer much better quality for a similar price as the T.16000M shows that people didn't in fact get the quality they could get for that price point, and still, they don't get what they pay for from TM when it comes to joysticks. I believe that the same is true for the TWCS and that for a similar price point, better products can be sold.

 

Yes,... by Chinese manufacturers, once they have to pay a US department to sell their products, things won't be so cheap

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Keep in mind that the flight sim market was in decline for a while, causing a lack of investment in equipment. Things changed and flight simming is now a lot more popular again.

 

Yes, more popular, how much? As much as the Sim racing Market? Not by a long shot

Also, just because Warthunder seems to attract lots of players isn't because those players want to fly with sim gear, it's because they don't have to invest in sim gear to play in the first place

Most players don't even play SB and most of those don't use sim gear

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Not sure why you are phrasing an agreement with what I said as if it were a disagreement. I was pointing out that propelor ignored the demand curve and merely referred to the supply curve (given his argument that only relative prices of products matter).

 

Perhaps you are overstating the demand

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

The actual reason was an overal decline in demand, which made all flight sim equipment a less interesting market for companies.

 

You are making it look like the Flight sim market is huge

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

You can actually get a wheel and pedals for less than $100, but without FFB and you'll be better off with a controller.

 

I rest my case

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

So this is a pretty useless comparison when you don't factor in price/performance. And price/performance at the low-end of the simracing market has actually improved a lot in the recent past, so why would the same not be possible for flight simming?

 

Market size

Initial investment is earned back a lot sooner in the sim racing market

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

It's called the Ursa Minor, not Major. And you completely fail to explain why those extra costs would push the price from $110 to $300. The entire FSSB2 was almost sold for that price difference, compensating for inflation. So why do you think that a new iteration would have to cost so much more?

 

https://news.microsoft.com/1999/09/21/a-match-made-in-heaven/

$129 retail in 1999 (Which was a friggin load of money for a joystick back then, especially for a kid to buy)

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

I don't think that your stab in the dark at the required price makes sense.

 

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Of course, at the low end there is less room for competition. But that doesn't mean that it can't be a solid earner for a company or two. You also completely ignore my point that the product would not just earn money directly, but would result in more sales for the more expensive products from the same brand.

 

Just like with high end instruments: they are not a company's moneymaker

There is a reason Ferrari is owned by Fiat

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

You are about a factor of two off, with the new R3 bundle being sold for $399 (and that does include pedals). This is rather illustrative for the extent to which I think you overestimate the required costs.

 

Alright, so I was off $550, now I ask again: "which is the bigger market"?

Where do you think they will recover their investment sooner? and how many of those R3 bundles are actually sold?

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Note that the R3 is designed for upselling and reuse of components, not the lowest price, with its detachable wheels.

 

for 5 bills, I'm sure it's not the lowest price, still also not a price for beginners

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Cammus shows that you can make a direct drive systems even cheaper with an all-in-one design.

 

Yes, I've read the press reviews, the user reviews aren't all as positive

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Not needed for the category of simmers who care more about having fun than optimizing their times. The steering wheel FFB tends to produce the fun, the pedals are more about good lap times.

 

So we're back at 250 for a non FFB simracing setup

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Note that I've ignored pedals for flight simming completely, as a sufficiently fun experience can be had in flight simming with a twist stick as well. Of course, flight simming is not as good without rudder pedals and racing not as nice without a good set of pedals, but realistically, a low-end setup can do with poor racing pedals for sim racing and without rudder pedals for flight simming.

 

So we talked about that $250 MSFFB2 after inflation, now add $ for a twist function

Also: Don't forget to use old style pots by the way, putting in modern tech, my $300+ is right on the money

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

It's a poor setup that doesn't provide value for money, in my opinion. I would advise people to instead get the Ursa Minor if they don't have to deal with excessive import taxes and then combine that with a (second-hand or discounted) TWCS or a new VKB STECS MiniPlus or a Virpil CDT-VMAX.

But that would mean a bigger expenditure at first (although it should last longer and have better resale value). I hope that a new throttle will be released at the $100-$150 price point that is actually good at throttling, which ironically, is where the TWCS is weakest at. Note that I see the TWCS being sold for 85 euros in my country, which is with 21% taxes included, so a new low end competitor for $150 would actually allow for a decent amount of extra production costs.

 

so that $110 stick needs another 250 for a throttle, we're at 300+ without FFB even added

Remember that 2nd hand doesn't make manufacturers money

 

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Well, your 'realistic' sim racing price are actually about twice the actually realistic prices, so I'm pretty confident that you overestimate the costs.

 

...but I least am not overestimating the flight sim market share, or the fact that a single-motor FFB peripheral is already $300 (and then we're not even mentioning quality)

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by Nightdare

[Aapje]

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Cheap work is not good/Good work is not cheap

Then how do you explain that TM asks more for a worse stick than Winwing? Equating price with quality is a mistake.

Key for a good lower-end product is to make the money go far. Spend it on things that matter for a large audience. For example, very many people slam the joystick on their desk or mount it to the side of their chair. In both cases, they don't need an extension. Building a product for an extension creates all kinds of issues that require more expensive solutions to solve. Similarly, being able to easily swap sticks is something very few people need, but creates a lot of additional costs in needing durable and relatively expensive connectors on both ends.

Products like the Gladiator and the Ursa Minor excise those features to reduce costs a lot, but this doesn't actually reduce the quality for those that don't need those features.

And there are also a lot of ways to reduce costs by optimizing the design for cheaper manufacture, while not hurting the quality too much. And there is also the Trustmaster Warthog way, where you make the product look expensive, without actually making a quality product. For example, by taking a plastic product and screwing metal plates to it. Premium appearance without premium quality.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Yes,... by Chinese manufacturers, once they have to pay a US department to sell their products, things won't be so cheap

That's not really how it works. There are tariffs for some product categories, but also trade agreements that reduce tariffs. The low prices for the Ursa Minor sticks already show that you are simply wrong in what you think you know.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Yes, more popular, how much? As much as the Sim racing Market? Not by a long shot

This is not a very useful metric in isolation. For example, there is also less competition (and a lot of the old companies have stagnated and thereby offer up a great opportunity for them to be outcompeted), and a rapidly growing demand, which both provide good conditions for introducing new products at lower price points. And new entrants like Moza have an incentive to be very aggressive with the margins, because it is much wiser to grow market share first and then get good margins on higher sales volumes, then to remain small and then try to make good margins. Because in the latter situation, it is very hard to cover the fixed costs and then also make a strong profit on top of that.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Also, just because Warthunder seems to attract lots of players isn't because those players want to fly with sim gear, it's because they don't have to invest in sim gear to play in the first place

Again, gateway drug. They see the planes in War Thunder, they hear that flying is much better with a stick, they see that the price of a good basic stick is within their reach and give it a go. Now you have started a percentage of those people off on a journey to this:

 

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Perhaps you are overstating the demand

It is very obvious that we are in a significant upswing in demand right now.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

You are making it look like the Flight sim market is huge

It can provide for a healthy profit for quite a few companies. As many/good as sim racing? No. But still quite good.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Initial investment is earned back a lot sooner in the sim racing market

By this logic no one would make new sim racing equipment either, because initial investments are going to be earned back much sooner if you sell Ferrari's.

But the reality is that there is money to be made in many ways, and not much money to be made if everyone tries to sell the same thing. It's not like flight simmers are suddenly going to be buying steering wheels to use with their flight sims. The only way to get that money is to sell flight simming gear.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

$129 retail in 1999 (Which was a friggin load of money for a joystick back then, especially for a kid to buy)

I found a retail price of $109 and thus a little lower price after inflation.

However, what you ignore is that technology has also improved and you could not buy a Ursa Minor-quality joystick for $110 back then, especially if you calculate back the inflation. You are stacking the deck in favor of your argument by only considering the negative (inflation) without considering the positive (improved technology).

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Just like with high end instruments: they are not a company's moneymaker

There is a reason Ferrari is owned by Fiat

This is another one of your factual errors. Ferrari was spun off in 2016. And they are definitely a moneymaker.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

for 5 bills, I'm sure it's not the lowest price, still also not a price for beginners

Doesn't matter. If sim racers start with a controller and then transition to a $400 set, and then go to a $800 set, etc, the drug dealer model works.

Key is that the products need to exist to get people into the funnel (as many as possible), that these products give them a good enough taste to not be turned off en masse, and that there are products for them to upgrade to that provide strong and clear benefits, but are also not too expensive to make the jump up too much of a stretch.

My point is that a relatively cheap FFB joystick could fit great in such a line-up and without it, the $700+ FFB options are probably going to limit their audience much more than with a more effective funnel.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

So we talked about that $250 MSFFB2 after inflation, now add $ for a twist function

Also: Don't forget to use old style pots by the way, putting in modern tech, my $300+ is right on the money

As I said, I think that you ignore technological improvements and only look at things negatively. Winwing now sells a joystick with twist, hall effect sensors and more buttons than joysticks of the past for just $110. This is way better value for money than joysticks of the past, which broke much sooner and had bad dead zones.

But even a $300 price point is great compared to a $500 base, that requires a $200 stick and requires a $100+ mounting device. That's still half the price of the complete solution, and I can see quite a few people actually preferring the smaller all-in-one joystick that fits on top of their desk.

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

so that $110 stick needs another 250 for a throttle, we're at 300+ without FFB even added

You are completely ignoring my point that I think that it is possible to offer a much cheaper throttle that is way better than the TWCS, but is much less than $250.

I feel that I'm looking at what it possible and what we should have, while you are the negative Nancy shouting "everything is always getting worse!"

[Mr_sukebe]

Come on guys, we have a solution for your debate:

Best of three, guns only in the same aircraft.

it’ll be a LOT faster than the debate on here…

[Aapje]

Moza has opened preorders for $550, with a delivery date of 4-6 weeks. Sooner than I expected.

[propeler]

56 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Moza has opened preorders for $550

600 Eur actually.

On 6/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, propeler said:

I bet for something closer to 700$ At least not less then 500$ without the grip. 

  So my prediction was correct.

[Aapje]

26 minutes ago, propeler said:

600 Eur actually.

 

The EU price is higher due to the requirement to post prices including tax.