Cannot see threat aircraft in dogfight (F-4E) (VR)

[Richrach]

What is the trick to being able to see MiGs in the F-4?  They are all specks, even at less than one mile. When I finally do see them I cannot keep them in sight, they just disappear from view even in close.  Heck, a MiG-21 should be visible at a mile and a half, even farther after one has a tally.

Using a Pimax 8KX.  Is there some setting or combination of settings that seems to work best in VR?  Lay some wisdom on me. 

- RIchrach

[=475FG= Dawger]

Turn down your resolution. A lot. 

[Richrach]

Dawger, cranked down the resolution to below 1080, but MiGs are still hard to see.  Thank you for the tip, it helped.  Have you found anything else that helps?   Running around in Spyglass is a real pain. - Richrach

[=475FG= Dawger]

3 hours ago, Richrach said:

Dawger, cranked down the resolution to below 1080, but MiGs are still hard to see.  Thank you for the tip, it helped.  Have you found anything else that helps?   Running around in Spyglass is a real pain. - Richrach

I run 2200 resolution in my Reverb G2. Its better at lower resolution but gets really ugly  

Remove all antialiasing. 
 

There is a new LOD slider that may also help

However, DCS lights aircraft wrong and causes situations where the aircraft becomes totally invisible. The easiest to demonstrate is against a deep blue sky. Should be a black silhouette but in DCS, its a cloak of invisibility farther than 2-3 miles. 
 

Reshade is another we used to use but I stopped using because OpenXR has similar tools  If you are running OpenXR, there are some color and contrast adjustments that might help  

There are lots of other tweaks in DCS and out and if I remember any I will post back. 
 

It is one of the sacrifices of VR but I won’t ever fly pancake again. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Yesterday I made a track from a dogfight with a MiG-21. While replaying it on my main monitor, I noticed how much easier it was to track the movements of the MiG in 2D compared to VR.

I’ll have to think about it for a moment, perhaps even consider turning on (dot) labels…

It’s a shame really, and I hope it will improve in the future…

[Gianky]

Ok, a premise: I never understood the obsession with not using labels. And that is because they're not a way of cheating, they're a way of work around a very real and much constraining limitation of all flight simulator: there's no resolution that can really give you the same visual you have in real life. And in DCS, as the others above me underlined, the problem is even worse than in other sims, especially if you use VR. So, I'm definitely biased on this topic.

That said, my advice is: use labels. You can fully customize them to be the size and shape you want (that means using the character you want), you can set a neutral color and choose the distance (if any) at which that color becomes blue or red, to emulate VID of the aircraft, you can do pretty much whatever you want with them with minimal editing skills. Believe me, it doesn't make spotting the aircraft at short range that unrealistic, especially if you use VR, you still have to move a lot your neck (unfortunately! :D) and the blind spot in the aircraft and limited FOV of the visors will force you to work a lot to visually acquire that label and follow it. Labels just offset a natural limitation of the simulator, especially in DCS, they're not a cheat. Are they realistic? Of course not, but, on the other hand, how many unrealistic things we have in the simulator about which we don't complain?

To edit the labels, just make a search on the forums using "labels.lua" as parameter. For example:

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/210892-revised-labelslua/

Cheers.

Edited July 2, 2024 by Gianky

[Richrach]

Gianky, you are proof an old dog like me can learn a new trick.  I had not thought of that.  Clever and totally within the system.  Will try it.  THANK YOU! - Richrach

[=475FG= Dawger]

6 hours ago, Gianky said:

Ok, a premise: I never understood the obsession with not using labels. And that is because they're not a way of cheating, they're a way of work around a very real and much constraining limitation of all flight simulator: there's no resolution that can really give you the same visual you have in real life. And in DCS, as the others above me underlined, the problem is even worse than in other sims, especially if you use VR. So, I'm definitely biased on this topic.

That said, my advice is: use labels. You can fully customize them to be the size and shape you want (that means using the character you want), you can set a neutral color and choose the distance (if any) at which that color becomes blue or red, to emulate VID of the aircraft, you can do pretty much whatever you want with them with minimal editing skills. Believe me, it doesn't make spotting the aircraft at short range that unrealistic, especially if you use VR, you still have to move a lot your neck (unfortunately! :D) and the blind spot in the aircraft and limited FOV of the visors will force you to work a lot to visually acquire that label and follow it. Labels just offset a natural limitation of the simulator, especially in DCS, they're not a cheat. Are they realistic? Of course not, but, on the other hand, how many unrealistic things we have in the simulator about which we don't complain?

To edit the labels, just make a search on the forums using "labels.lua" as parameter. For example:

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/210892-revised-labelslua/

Cheers.

 

I am actually a proponent of a well designed label system. Unfortunately, DCS has put no effort into this. I fly almost exclusively PvP and no PvP server would ever consider labels and for a very good reason.

DCS labels are visible through the aircraft. 

A bit crazy since hiding labels behind the aircraft has been a thing since 1995 at least. I know because I was there.

However, if you are flying SP or with a group of like minded friends, labels for A2A targets are pretty helpful. I even have some labels mods that you might enjoy.

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

DCS labels are visible through the aircraft

Yes that’s the main reason I am no longer using labels: it annoyed me too much.

I used to have a custom-made labels.lua too, but haven’t used it in years…

[Dragon1-1]

I'm running a Reverb G2 at the native resolution, and for some reason have huge black dots that make spotting trivial at way beyond visual range. They turn into white spots at a certain distance, which is better (admittedly, that was a very shiny MiG-15, so maybe that was supposed to be a sun glint), but still meh. I can see a bogey from 30km away, even if I don't know it's there. Same with vehicles. So I don't know what's the problem with spotting, perhaps it's something in my settings, but I really hate the black dots.

[Talisman_VR]

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'm running a Reverb G2 at the native resolution, and for some reason have huge black dots that make spotting trivial at way beyond visual range. They turn into white spots at a certain distance, which is better (admittedly, that was a very shiny MiG-15, so maybe that was supposed to be a sun glint), but still meh. I can see a bogey from 30km away, even if I don't know it's there. Same with vehicles. So I don't know what's the problem with spotting, perhaps it's something in my settings, but I really hate the black dots.

Very much agree.  I am a Pimax VR user and the black dots/squares are truly awful to say the least!  It is the biggest thing that puts me off DCS.  For me, this combat flight sim is all about my MP experience and this issue ruins it for me. 

Sad thing is that it feels to me, as a customer, that DCS are not listening or they can't do anything about it.  Nether of which encourage me in the long term and I fear that I am likely to drift away from DCS in the not too distant future.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[=475FG= Dawger]

14 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'm running a Reverb G2 at the native resolution, and for some reason have huge black dots that make spotting trivial at way beyond visual range. They turn into white spots at a certain distance, which is better (admittedly, that was a very shiny MiG-15, so maybe that was supposed to be a sun glint), but still meh. I can see a bogey from 30km away, even if I don't know it's there. Same with vehicles. So I don't know what's the problem with spotting, perhaps it's something in my settings, but I really hate the black dots.

The issue being discussed is not long range spotting via the black square. And that can be turned off locally (Gameplay Tab) so you never have to see it.

If your issue is really that you hate seeing it, just turn it off.

The issue is medium to short range spotting beginning when the dot label turns off (which is essentially what the black square is). Under certain conditions, the hostile completely disappears, especially if you run any anti-aliasing. This is a core issue with how DCS lights and renders aircraft at medium to short ranges.

 

null

Edited July 3, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[Gianky]

On 7/2/2024 at 2:52 PM, Richrach said:

Gianky, you are proof an old dog like me can learn a new trick.  I had not thought of that.  Clever and totally within the system.  Will try it.  THANK YOU! - Richrach

You're welcome, Richrach! I just hope it's not too complicated: after writing that message, I took a look again at a labels.lua file after a long while, it's all in there (there are comments, following the -- sign that explain how the file works), but I'm afraid you have to have a bit of experience with lua language and how it works, not just editing. In any case, I bet you'll find plenty of guys who can help you write the file you need (I'm available, just keep in mind that I'm not a programmer!).

22 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I am actually a proponent of a well designed label system. Unfortunately, DCS has put no effort into this. I fly almost exclusively PvP and no PvP server would ever consider labels and for a very good reason.

DCS labels are visible through the aircraft. 

A bit crazy since hiding labels behind the aircraft has been a thing since 1995 at least. I know because I was there.

However, if you are flying SP or with a group of like minded friends, labels for A2A targets are pretty helpful. I even have some labels mods that you might enjoy.

 

That's interesting, I thought I was one of the few that wanted labels. I get that seeing them through the aircraft is what is holding back a wider adoption of labels in MP servers, and that, while this problem can be somewhat mitigated choosing the appropriate color for the labels (like Leonardo did in the thread I linked), making customized lua file can be quite the chore, but I think ED should really fix this. I have a Rift S, I can't play without labels, it's basically impossible to see anything at short range and I'm forced to skip most of the MP servers, because there are a very few (and all of them are PvE) that allow labels.

2 hours ago, Talisman_VR said:

Sad thing is that it feels to me, as a customer, that DCS are not listening or they can't do anything about it.

The point is: they have to think of all customers not only some of them. As Dawger said, it's an option (so you can deactivate it) and it's in there for those of us, like me, who have older visors with lower resolutions and wouldn't be able to spot aircraft as easily as with the new hardware.

That said, what we're discussing here is very different, it's the fact that once the engine transitions from the black dot to the aircraft shape at shorter range, it basically disappears from view.

[Dragon1-1]

58 minutes ago, Gianky said:

it's the fact that once the engine transitions from the black dot to the aircraft shape at shorter range, it basically disappears from view.

TBH, the black dot shows up at a point when you probably shouldn't be able to see the aircraft in first place. Spotting is hard. In fact, it was a quite well known effect with the F-5, when it'd turn to pure pursuit, thus stopping its motion across the sky and presenting you with its razor-thin frontal profile. Many a pilot lost tally at that point, they said the F-5 "hit the disappear switch". In DCS it's not perfect, but I wonder if people aren't expecting too much.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

16 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

In DCS it's not perfect, but I wonder if people aren't expecting too much.

The problem is - for the SP crowd at least - that the AI is omniscient and thus can see and know things that no human in that situation ever could. A little help with spotting evens the playing field a bit.

[Dragon1-1]

Maybe, but a real fix would be to correct the AI. I think that, especially in light of ground unit spotting and accuracy being looked at, this is where the effort should be focused. AI should be able to get jumped from a blindspot, lose tally, and maneuver to regain it in a realistic way (and extend if it can't do it for a while). LOS and scanning simulation is already in for George and Jester, this should be extended to aircraft AI.

That said, I haven't experienced this mattering much in a real dogfight. If both you and the bandit do your jobs, then the game comes down to kinematics. The opponent will generally be close enough to see without much difficulty. The period when it transitions from the dot to the model tends to, at least with my LOD settings, to happen outside the typical WVR range. It's plenty visible when you get to the point you can start thinking about shooting a heater.

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

TBH, the black dot shows up at a point when you probably shouldn't be able to see the aircraft in first place. Spotting is hard. In fact, it was a quite well known effect with the F-5, when it'd turn to pure pursuit, thus stopping its motion across the sky and presenting you with its razor-thin frontal profile. Many a pilot lost tally at that point, they said the F-5 "hit the disappear switch". In DCS it's not perfect, but I wonder if people aren't expecting too much.

 Yesterday, in a training hop against a human in an F-5 he reported my Phantom had disappeared against the clear blue sky while I could see his planform shape  against the desert floor maybe 2 miles away. 

Its a DCS lighting and render issue.

We don't need to "git gud".

[Richrach]

The more I "fly" the F-4 the more tricks and workarounds I am finding to add to those discussed above.

 

I hate to have to add items like labels.  It seems they do not work with my computer/Pimax anyway.  So... I have been using the F10 view more.  I bounce back and forth between the F10 and normal view and use it as AWACS/GCI until I can get about four or five miles out.  At that point I have a good idea where the threat is, but not fine enough to pick it up without having to work for it.  At this point a few things happen, 1) the bad guys start showing up as black dots, 2) if they feel threatened (since they seem to have universal SA and know you are there) they start dropping flares and solve the pickup problem for you, 3) spyglass zoom until I can drive in close enough to maintain a normal visual.

 

The F10 GCI has helped a lot.  It helps build SA and that has really helped with finding the hidden pixel-plane.

 

THANK YOU all for the ideas and tips! - Richrach

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I haven't experienced this mattering much in a real dogfight

I have: a MiG-21 for example with non-existing rearward visibility starts flaring immediately once I move the nose of my aircraft within say 20 degrees of his tail, and this from the 6 o’clock low position at that, stops when the angle-off grows and starts again once it shrinks

[Dragon1-1]

2 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I have: a MiG-21 for example with non-existing rearward visibility starts flaring immediately once I move the nose of my aircraft within say 20 degrees of his tail, and this from the 6 o’clock low position at that, stops when the angle-off grows and starts again once it shrinks

What I was saying was that it's possible not to lose tally during a typical merge and a turning engagement that follows, without any additional tricks. We need to separate two issues: spotting distance and seeing through the canopy walls. Yes, MiG-21 should have worse SA, but that's beside the point. This discussion is about seeing the bandit from a long distance, where it's just a silhouette, and that silhouette would sometimes disappear. That I have not experienced, in that when I have tally, I can usually keep it. At least in my headset, even during a two circle fight, you don't go out as far as for the bandit to become too difficult to see.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

22 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

and that silhouette would sometimes disappear. That I have not experienced

Fair enough. I have, though: bandits at 10nm+ are easier to spot than when they are right outside your window.

And as Dawger said earlier, at some point they completely disappear even against a clear blue sky.

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Fair enough. I have, though: bandits at 10nm+ are easier to spot than when they are right outside your window.

And as Dawger said earlier, at some point they completely disappear even against a clear blue sky.

Especially against the clear blue sky. In DCS,  It’s easier to see aircraft against the ground than the sky or clouds when they are between 2-4 miles away. Decidedly wrong to anyone who has spent time looking at other aircraft from any cockpit. 
 

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger