Problem regarding the way that IR missiles react to counstermeasures - IRCCM inconsistency

[Chizh]

1 час назад, TheFreshPrince сказал:

I highly doubt that, because that also implies that IR-missiles have zero countermeasure-resistance and will always fall for flares from longer range. Which might be true in DCS, but I don't expect this in real life. Also, in real life every aircraft has its own type of flare, where certainly some must work better than others against certain missiles. In DCS unfortunately we only have one type. 

So claiming that an IR-missile will always go for any flare from a distance seems illogical to me. But I guess there's no public data about it anyway. 

This is your idea. But the reality is a little different.
Here is a fragment from the MiG-29 combat manual in terms of delivering R-73 missiles.
It says here that if the target dispense PPI-26 flares (the weakest in the world) in a series of 4 pieces with an interval of 0.3 seconds, at a range of about 2 km, the probability of the missile being spoofed is no more than 10%. But the same flares at a range of 4-5 km lead to almost guaranteed missile miss close to 100%.

Note: This is true for the target in military mode. In afterburn mode, the number of flares should be several times greater.

Yes, you are right. At the present time we have only one type of flares in DСS. But we already have plans to make different flares, of different power and specter, as in reality.

[SlipHavoc]

On a related note, for anyone interested in all the many considerations that go into designing and improving flares, I found a (publicly available, unclassifed) document called GENESIS of INFRARED DECOY FLARES: The early years from 1950 into the 1970s, by a person working at Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division.  I haven't read it in detail, but have skimmed it, and it discusses things like the pyrotechnic composition, ignition time and reliability, radiating spectrum, safety, visible plume area, liquid vs solid pyrotechnics, effects of aircraft speed, and many other factors.  There is way more that goes into countermeasure flare design than I had ever thought.

[Hobel]

Am 13.7.2024 um 13:18 schrieb Hobel:

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't it the case that pre flare didn't work?   Flares that are dropped before the launch of the missle do not exist for the rocket at launch?

 

must correct myself here

 

 

[Red_Camarada]

35 minutes ago, Hobel said:

 

must correct myself here

 

 

Could you provide us tracks and tacview?

Seems good for the argument but I don't know if this can be used as a standart tactical approach, seems more like some lucky shoots

[Hobel]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Red_Camarada:

Could you provide us tracks and tacview?

Seems good for the argument but I don't know if this can be used as a standart tactical approach, seems more like some lucky shoots

as a preflare definitely has an effect.
but of course i have to say that it would also be nice if you could see the influence of flares in the HUD.

 

 

I have just done a rough test and it also makes a difference if you drop the flares towards the missile so that the flares fill the FOV of the seeker better.

 

A10 Preflare: https://streamable.com/90pete

 

Stinger :

https://streamable.com/k1fufc

flare.acmi

 

 

 

 

EDIT:  I have to say it's quite constant, if you drop the flare from the beginning towards the missile seeker a couple are enough, but if not I need a whole bunch.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Hobel

[Red_Camarada]

On 9/28/2024 at 11:04 PM, Hobel said:

as a preflare definitely has an effect.
but of course i have to say that it would also be nice if you could see the influence of flares in the HUD.

 

 

I have just done a rough test and it also makes a difference if you drop the flares towards the missile so that the flares fill the FOV of the seeker better.

 

A10 Preflare: https://streamable.com/90pete

 

Stinger :

https://streamable.com/k1fufc

flare.acmi 74.06 kB · 1 download

 

 

 

 

EDIT:  I have to say it's quite constant, if you drop the flare from the beginning towards the missile seeker a couple are enough, but if not I need a whole bunch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the videos and testing stuff, keep those tracks saved because you can provide new stuff with the next patchs, if they change something you just need to run the tracks again, and also thats why I asked for the tracks.

nice job!

[Xhonas]

While i agree that the simulation take into consideration some important variables, it's still relying on a dice roll to give results and the trackfiles below prove this!

Apparently the dice is rolled way before you drop your countermeasures and it will determine a higher or a lower probability of your flares defeating a missile. I separated the trackfiles in "T" for the ones that the missile hits me 100% of the times, and "F" for the ones the missile is trashed 100% of the times. Its exact the same scenario with the exact same amount of countermeasures being launched. Now the crazy thing, if you take control of any of the trackfiles in "seedF" for instance, you can restart the mission 100 times and approach the stinger by different headings and every time it will take exactly two pairs of f/a-18 flares to defeat a stinger. If you take control of any of the seedT trackfiles, two pairs of f/a-18 flares will get you killed every time, no matter how different you approach it. So, whenever you go in a mission, if the dice is not on your side you might have the perfect ircm tactic but you will get killed anyway.

 

(seedT) Undefeated 100% of the times: rng f18 2 seedT.trkrng f18 3 seedT.trkrng f18 4 seedT.trkrng f18 5 seedT.trkrng f18 1 seedT.trk

(seedF) Defeated 100% of the times:  rng f18 5 seedF.trkrng f18 2 seedF.trkrng f18 3 seedF.trkrng f18 4 seedF.trk

Edited October 6, 2024 by Xhonas