Helo Doorgunnery - pilot tips and tactics for operating with human doorgunner (how to ???)

[hannibal]

im starting a thread on the topic of helo operations with a human doorgunner.

seems like there is not much info on how two operate as a crew, pilot and doorgunner

i am looking for tips on how to fly to targets, how to fly in and coordinate with doorgunner to effectively employ the doorgun

 

if anyone has suggestions please share!

 

at this time i see that flying in on a target at 1000 ft at 70 knots was doable for my human doorgunner.. but will continue to figure out best distance..  pilot was using trim

minigun / M60 effective at 1000 meters..

kord 12.7..effective at 2000 meters. 

Doorgunner Training.miz

Edited August 15, 2024 by hannibal

[hannibal]

looks like marking target area with smoke helps also..

found this short snippet on doorgunnery.. but general

http://www.118ahc.org/chapter vi.htm

[hannibal]

did some further testing and flying

seems like gunner is effective at 1000 ft at 60-80 knots being able to shoot at targets  600-1000 meters

and at 2000 ft at 110 knots being able to shoot targets at 900 - 2500 meters

with the pilot trimmed to hold the speed steady..

[DishDoggie]

 

[hannibal]

On 7/24/2024 at 11:59 AM, DishDoggie said:

 

Doorgunner is the eyes and ears

Escort : Doorgun mark positions with smoke, supress enemy positions

Convoy : Survey convoy area 

 

 

[SloppyDog]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:25 AM, hannibal said:

im starting a thread on the topic of helo operations with a human doorgunner.

seems like there is not much info on how two operate as a crew, pilot and doorgunner

i am looking for tips on how to fly to targets, how to fly in and coordinate with doorgunner to effectively employ the doorgun

 

if anyone has suggestions please share!

 

at this time i see that flying in on a target at 1000 ft at 70 knots was doable for my human doorgunner.. but will continue to figure out best distance..  pilot was using trim

minigun / M60 effective at 1000 meters..

kord 12.7..effective at 2000 meters. 

 

Cool, I'm saving this thread, I've always wanted to make a video tutorial on how to be a good door gunner, but never really had the time to.

So, form my "extensive" experience, here are some tips: 

Left gunner must aim left of the target.

Right gunner must aim right of the target.

This happens because the gunner has to compensate for the forward motion of the helicopter. This is valid for fixed targets.  For moving targets this works as well, but the gunner has to compensate a little less.

For the forward gunner, it is literally just point and click. Where the circles show, just click and the rounds will hit

The swivel movement in DCS is very limited, unfortunately. You need to tell the pilot to stand off a little bit to allow for gunners limited gun movement, but also don't be too much away from the targets.

Effective ranges, considering he limited swivel movement, 500 to 1,500 meters. 

Autopilot:
The Huey has a cool autopilot feature, that works as if the pilot have control while you take the gunners positions. 
It works fine to flight level and straight and to orbit. I would love to see a autopilot that did 180º turns like George does in the Apache. 

Targets:

Anything soft: trucks, cars, etc.

Lightly armored as a M113 and SAM vehicles can be engaged with the MiniGun. The M60's are not that effective.

Tactics: 
Opposite orbits pattern: you do an orbit around the target, the disadvantage is that only one gunner will be able to hit the targets. May be interesting for the Mi-24, which has only one gunner, on one side. 

In the case of the Huey, you would need to change the direction of the orbit, so both gunners could engage the target. That's why I call it opposite orbits. From time to time you should change the orbit direction.

Skewed eight: the rude schematics is below, and here goes the explanation:

1) Do a frontal attack on the target using rockets or the front mounted miniguns

2) Make a turn, let's say to the left. It is a 90º degree turn to the side, exposing the target to the right hand gunner in the "inbound leg"

3) once past the target area, do a 180º degrees turn, now exposing the target to the left hand gunner in the "outbound leg"

 4) Passing the target, do a 90 º turn, to enter the "extension leg", to extend from the target, regain control and increase distance;

5) Make a 180º turn, and re-enter the main attack leg 

This way you assure you never overfly the target and everybody in your crew gets a piece of the action. 

It can work beautifully if coordinated with another Huey in a multiplayer environment. The AI cannot do it, since they go "balls out" on the target, without much care for tactics and self protection.  In MP, while Huey number one is turning to the extension leg, the number two is on the main attack leg. It guarantees a relentless attack on the enemy. 

Real life procedures:

I've watched many videos showing the Marines making their attack runs with Hueys. They usually come low and fast, bump, gain altitude and slow down, nose down, rockets, turn, door gunners and go. And While one is coming out, the other one is bumping.

It can be done in DCS, but not entirely, since Marines' Hueys side weapons can be swiveled almost fully forward. 

Well, that's my Two Cents on using the Door Gunners in DCS. For a long time i've been wanting to talk about it, but never had found the chance to do so. Hope it helps.     
 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by SloppyDog

[hannibal]

i made a practice doorgunner mission to give a perspective on how pilot sees out to distance along with gunner out to a distance.

when i flew with my buddy he kept flying over target i couldnt aim down. then on wingman finder, i found someone to fly me around, but he flew very fast and low, i couldnt see anything..

if there is a mission file that can encompass everything your theory and science... would be cool... i have to find time to do that... 

but ill post my mission up, its basically part shooting gallery, and i have to figure out how to control the train, it was cool to trail a train so that the train leads my friends towards where targets are...

thank you for sharing your doorgun science!! @SloppyDog

if you have missions online or multiplayer server, im happy to join u

 

i am hoping that  the Polychop team can fix the gun swivel range for the SA342 minigun variant... with the mouse, u can swivel the doorgun fully forward, but it doesnt work when mapped to a joystick. the Gazelle minigun is by far the most fun heli for doorgun employment -> @Polychop Simulations

Edited August 14, 2024 by hannibal

[SloppyDog]

8 hours ago, hannibal said:

i made a practice doorgunner mission to give a perspective on how pilot sees out to distance along with gunner out to a distance.

when i flew with my buddy he kept flying over target i couldnt aim down. then on wingman finder, i found someone to fly me around, but he flew very fast and low, i couldnt see anything..

if there is a mission file that can encompass everything your theory and science... would be cool... i have to find time to do that... 

but ill post my mission up, its basically part shooting gallery, and i have to figure out how to control the train, it was cool to trail a train so that the train leads my friends towards where targets are...

thank you for sharing your doorgun science!! @SloppyDog

if you have missions online or multiplayer server, im happy to join u

 

i am hoping that  the Polychop team can fix the gun swivel range for the SA342 minigun variant... with the mouse, u can swivel the doorgun fully forward, but it doesnt work when mapped to a joystick. the Gazelle minigun is by far the most fun heli for doorgun employment -> @Polychop Simulations

 

I'm glad I could help.

Unfortunately, I'm very time constrained right now...cannot find the time to fly online. Flying with a dedicated door gunner would be a great experience.

Like I said, I use the Huey autopilot feature, where you can tell the pilot where you want them to fly.

For me, the sweet spot is at 750 ft AGL, 90 knots of speed, and at 1,000 meters to 500 meters off of the target.

I'll try your mission and share my thoughts. 

[hannibal]

33 minutes ago, SloppyDog said:

I'm glad I could help.

Unfortunately, I'm very time constrained right now...cannot find the time to fly online. Flying with a dedicated door gunner would be a great experience.

Like I said, I use the Huey autopilot feature, where you can tell the pilot where you want them to fly.

For me, the sweet spot is at 750 ft AGL, 90 knots of speed, and at 1,000 meters to 500 meters off of the target.

I'll try your mission and share my thoughts. 

ok, i added the mission file...

i did not know the huey had an auto pilot feature.. how does that work? i know hind and apache had Ai pilots.. but not the Huey... please explain how this works.. it would allow me to setup better missions not having to depend on me looking for a human pilot..

36 minutes ago, SloppyDog said:

For me, the sweet spot is at 750 ft AGL, 90 knots of speed, and at 1,000 meters to 500 meters off of the target.

is this effective heli speed while engaging small vehicles that shoot back?

[SloppyDog]

9 hours ago, hannibal said:

ok, i added the mission file...

i did not know the huey had an auto pilot feature.. how does that work? i know hind and apache had Ai pilots.. but not the Huey... please explain how this works.. it would allow me to setup better missions not having to depend on me looking for a human pilot..

In the Huey Controls, go to Assist section. There you will find:

Auto Pilot: LWin +A

Autopilot ATTITUDE HOLD: LAtl+Lshift+A

Autopilot LEVEL FLIGHT: LCrtl+A

Autopilot ORBIT: LAtlt+ A

Of course, you can set a button for each of these commands.

So, you hit Autopilot button, then Autopilot LEVEL Flight, it is like one the pilots took command of the Huey, so you can move around to the gunners positions while the helo is flying straight and level. Same thing with orbit, or attitude hold. If you open the control indicator (RCrtl+Enter) you'll see the commands going from red to white, indicating that either pilot has control of the aircraft.

 You see, the Huey doesn't have a autopilot system as advanced as in the Apache and the Hind, but it does help a lot to door gunner training.

Regarding the speed, for a Huey armed to the teeth, i.e., two frontal miniguns, two door gunners and two rocket pods, 90 kts is the sweet spot. Less you become an easier target, more, the Huey starts shaking like crazy. Of course, as soon as you spend rockets and burn some fuel, the speed will increase. Or if you leave the frontal miniguns or the rocket pode behind, it will increase speed as well.

Attacking vehicles that shoot back in the Huey is a bold proposition, but it is what makes it so cool and challenging. Learning how much stand-off distance while being effective is both an art and a science.

Gee, man, all this conversation made me wanna hop back in the old bird again. 

 

P.S.: You can also tell the AI gunners to attack. The commands are in the Gunners AI Panel. They are very goo at engaging targets. It is a good way to train the right attitude and distance you must have from a target to better allow you to shoot at the targets.   

Edited August 15, 2024 by SloppyDog

[hannibal]

5 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

In the Huey Controls, go to Assist section. There you will find:

Auto Pilot: LWin +A

Autopilot ATTITUDE HOLD: LAtl+Lshift+A

Autopilot LEVEL FLIGHT: LCrtl+A

Autopilot ORBIT: LAtlt+ A

Of course, you can set a button for each of these commands.

So, you hit Autopilot button, then Autopilot LEVEL Flight, it is like one the pilots took command of the Huey, so you can move around to the gunners positions while the helo is flying straight and level. Same thing with orbit, or attitude hold. If you open the control indicator (RCrtl+Enter) you'll see the commands going from red to white, indicating that either pilot has control of the aircraft.

 You see, the Huey doesn't have a autopilot system as advanced as in the Apache and the Hind, but it does help a lot to door gunner training.

Regarding the speed, for a Huey armed to the teeth, i.e., two frontal miniguns, two door gunners and two rocket pods, 90 kts is the sweet spot. Less you become an easier target, more, the Huey starts shaking like crazy. Of course, as soon as you spend rockets and burn some fuel, the speed will increase. Or if you leave the frontal miniguns or the rocket pode behind, it will increase speed as well.

Attacking vehicles that shoot back in the Huey is a bold proposition, but it is what makes it so cool and challenging. Learning how much stand-off distance while being effective is both an art and a science.

Gee, man, all this conversation made me wanna hop back in the old bird again. 

 

P.S.: You can also tell the AI gunners to attack. The commands are in the Gunners AI Panel. They are very goo at engaging targets. It is a good way to train the right attitude and distance you must have from a target to better allow you to shoot at the targets.   

 

i hope i can come up with a fun mission arcade like, along with serious tactical oriented mission for you and the community

because of what DCS offers and i am able to build a Doorgun joystick to employ with VR.. its amazing. no other sim allows this, and i am flabbergasted that theres not more out there... i mean who doesn't like pew pew, or 'get some'..

if i can inspire others and grow more possibilities, then it just means more fun, and even more.. as i would like to see planes with joystick controlled turrets.

unfortunately i can not mass produce, but maybe someday, a doorgun joystick is something someone else and mass produce, and then you have more pilot gunner coordinations.

a few years ago, the Doorgun joystick was functional for the Huey.. then it appeared on the Hind! followed by the Hip! 3rd party @Polychop Simulations gave some life to the doorgun joystick with the gazelle minigun variant (hoping for the slew fix) and now the chinook has functional joystick doorguns...

 

thank you for sharing.. i like to keep this story going.

also want to thank @PilotMi8 for first giving life to the doorgun joystick for the UH1H module.. and @Flappie for passing word to devs so that it was possible on hind and hip!

Edited August 15, 2024 by hannibal