correct as-is Stores Config Light and Master Caution message with two fuel Bags on the Wings and after releasing all AG Weapons still in CAT/III

[Nedum]

Hello,

I have to ask if this bug is a known one?

If I have two Fuel Bags under my wings and I have released all of my A2G Weapons, the Master Caution Warning appears and the Stores Config Light is enabled until I switch to CAT/I.

After doing that, I am now in CAT/I with 2 bags full of fuel under my wings. 

If I set up the F16 with 2 bags and only A2A Weapons, I have to use CAT/III. If I switch to CAT/l with this loadout, the Master Warning tells me I have to use CAT/III.

Fix incoming?

 

EDIT: please move to the Bug Section. Thx

Edited July 21, 2024 by Nedum

[rob10]

There is some discussion of this closer to the end of this thread.  May have been discussed elsewhere too if memory serves, but this was what came up in a quick search.

 

[Nedum]

Doesn't really touch what I've written.

They discussed the Over-G with the CAT settings and what the CAT setting really does.

I ask about the warning logic. And a logic is currently not present, to say it nicely.

The current "DCS CAT Logic" is as follows:

1. Forced to change to CAT/I with 2 bags and all AG weapons released to reset the Stores Config warning.

2. Switch from CAT/III to CAT/I without any AG weapons, but 2 bags under your wings will light up the Stores Config.

So if 1. is right, 2. can't be wrong, but the "DCS-Logic" say, it is. I don't think it's clever to make fun with the Pilots.

As far I've understood, If there are 2 bags under my wings I have to go with CAT/III or else I will get an "enlighten" hint to not do this.

Currently, if I am in CAT/III with 2 bags and AG weapons and I release all AG weapons, the F16 say: "Hey idiot, you have to switch to CAT/I. Go on!"

Me: "But there are 2 bags under my wings!"

F16: "Shut up, you son of a B'x@#, I've said so, and I will show you I'm right (with a light) until you choose to switch. So go on and switch to CAT/I."

Me: "But with only AA weapons and 2 Bags, you say I have to stay with CAT/III."

F16: "So you tell me I am wrong? How dare you, you son of a B*+#x. I am ALWAYS right, so do as I say!"

 

Edited July 21, 2024 by Nedum

[Swift.]

Are you saying that its prompting you to select CAT III when you load 2 bags on the ground. But its prompting you to CAT I instead if you drop bombs but retain 2 bags in the air?

[Falconeer]

2 bags of fuel under the wings is Cat. III.

 

Iirc max G loading is 6.5G with wings tanks and/or AG stores loaded

[Nedum]

On 7/22/2024 at 12:21 AM, Swift. said:

Are you saying that its prompting you to select CAT III when you load 2 bags on the ground. But its prompting you to CAT I instead if you drop bombs but retain 2 bags in the air?

No matter if the mission starts inflight, or it's a cold start, or I do a rearm, every time I have 2 bags and AG weapons, as soon I have released the AG weapons, the system of the F16 gives me a Stores Config warning, so I'm forced to switch to CAT/I.

If, I'm starting the mission inflight with only AA weapons and 2 bags, CAT/III is preselected and if I try to change this to CAT/I, I'm getting a Stores Config warning (like it should be). The same for a rearm. If I was in CAT/I and get 2 bags and not matter AA or AG weapons, I'm getting a Stores Config warning, and I have to switch to CAT/III.

The issue is present in every Mission, with 2 Bags and AG weapons under the wings. And to counter test, you can take a mission with only AA weapons and 2 bags, like most Air to Air Missions.

On 7/22/2024 at 10:58 AM, Falconeer said:

2 bags of fuel under the wings is Cat. III.

 

Iirc max G loading is 6.5G with wings tanks and/or AG stores loaded

Why was that marked as solution?

That's the explanation of how it should be, but currently it doesn't work like that, or was it fixed with the latest patch?

 

 

Edited July 24, 2024 by Nedum

[Swift.]

8 hours ago, Nedum said:

No matter if the mission starts inflight, or it's a cold start, or I do a rearm, every time I have 2 bags and AG weapons, as soon I have released the AG weapons, the system of the F16 gives me a Stores Config warning, so I'm forced to switch to CAT/I.

If, I'm starting the mission inflight with only AA weapons and 2 bags, CAT/III is preselected and if I try to change this to CAT/I, I'm getting a Stores Config warning (like it should be). The same for a rearm. If I was in CAT/I and get 2 bags and not matter AA or AG weapons, I'm getting a Stores Config warning, and I have to switch to CAT/III.

The issue is present in every Mission, with 2 Bags and AG weapons under the wings. And to counter test, you can take a mission with only AA weapons and 2 bags, like most Air to Air Missions.

Why was that marked as solution?

That's the explanation of how it should be, but currently it doesn't work like that, or was it fixed with the latest patch?

 

 

 

Ah I see, so you are saying:

2 bags with nothing else = CAT I

2 bags with AA weapons = CAT III

 

My understanding is the logic between I and III is more complex than just bags and bombs = III. So it would be good to know what specifically you are loading on the jet. For example 6 amraams and two bags would be CAT III, but 2 amraams and 2 bags would be CAT I.

 

Edit, did some testing in DCS and this seems to be the logic for warning light illumination:

Edited July 24, 2024 by Swift.

[Nedum]

8 hours ago, Swift. said:

Ah I see, so you are saying:

2 bags with nothing else = CAT I

2 bags with AA weapons = CAT III

 

My understanding is the logic between I and III is more complex than just bags and bombs = III. So it would be good to know what specifically you are loading on the jet. For example 6 amraams and two bags would be CAT III, but 2 amraams and 2 bags would be CAT I.

 

Edit, did some testing in DCS and this seems to be the logic for warning light illumination:

 

Doesn't even matter. If I'm in Cat/III with whatever and how many AA weapons. The F16 stays with CAT/III, if I'm starting with 6*Missiles and 2 fuel bags.

So, even that would be right, then during a fight, If I fire 2 of 6 AA weapons, the Stores Config should give me a hint to switch now to CAT/I. But it doesn't.

And why I'm getting a Store's Config warning with 2 HARMs at the same pylons instead of 2 Bags, and 2*AIM-120 and 2*AIM-9-X, If I'm switching to CAT/I?

As far I know, the weight on the wings and the pylons is what matters. For me, it makes no sense that the biggest mass holders, the 2 fuel bags, would not give any hint to stay in CAT/III until they are empty.

Please take a look at the pictures below.

 

[Swift.]

5 minutes ago, Nedum said:

Doesn't even matter. If I'm in Cat/III with whatever and how many AA weapons. The F16 stays with CAT/III, if I'm starting with 6*Missiles and 2 fuel bags.

So, even that would be right, then during a fight, If I fire 2 of 6 AA weapons, the Stores Config should give me a hint to switch now to CAT/I. But it doesn't.

And why I'm getting a Store's Config warning with 2 HARMs at the same pylons instead of 2 Bags, and 2*AIM-120 and 2*AIM-9-X, If I'm switching to CAT/I?

As far I know, the weight on the wings and the pylons is what matters. For me, it makes no sense that the biggest mass holders, the 2 fuel bags, would not give any hint to stay in CAT/III until they are empty.

Please take a look at the pictures below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To my knowledge, the purpose of the CAT thing is an aerodynamic limitation, not a mass or G limitation. Which is why it limits AOA and roll rate, not max G. So that the bags weigh more than the harm is meaningless.

The 4 sidewinder loadout you have is interesting, because I'd have expected that to be CAT I as per the tested logic. Perhaps its not '6 AAMs' but 'AAMs on all the underwing pylons'.

And as for the last image, you don't have wing bags loaded. So as per the logic I posted previously, that makes it CAT I.

 

Please provide any tracks you have of that 'firing 2 AAMs' occurrence you mentioned. I would be curious to see if the missiles being fired are from the wingtips or from the pylons.

[Nedum]

The last image was there to show that it doesn't matter how many AA missiles I take. It's all about the bags.

And yes, I know that CAT/III is like a damper for the Stick input, so the input will take longer to get the same amount of Pitch or Roll. It's not a G-Limiter. But, and that's the important part, as you have said, the pilot can always reach the same amount of G's but not in the same time period as with CAT/I. G is acceleration of mass. The higher the G's the more the force have to fight with the mass.

CAT/III helps the pilot to not reach too fast the critical amount of Gs. That's how CAT/III is working. It's all about G-Forces, acceleration, pylons, shear forces, fasteners and how all can withstand the G-Forces which affects that all. That's physic.

Mass is the deciding factor here.

There would be no logic to stay in CAT/III with 2 HARMs, but go to CAT/I with 2 fuel bags instead. The Pilot has always to watch to stay in the G-Tolerance, because the CAT positions are no G-Limiters.

The only logic would be, the pilot can switch to CAT/I if the bags are empty, but that's not the case right now.

 

And what would a trk-file change? Every one who is really interested into that behavior can pick the Caucasus free flight mission and the Afghanistan Air 2 Air mission and take a look.

Sometimes I have the feeling one will kid me.

If ED is not interested to fix Bugs, not my problem anymore. Do what you (ED) want. I'm out here.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Nedum

[Swift.]

12 hours ago, Nedum said:

 

I'm not ED, I'm just trying to explain to you what is happening in the SIM because you appear to have questions.

The decision between CAT I and III is not purely weight based. When you look at some references for this, you'll see that there are odd behaviours with different combinations. ie TGP+CL tank is CAT III, TGP+Wing tanks is CAT I.

I appreciate that it's confusing, which is why I tried to help out by making that flow chart to clear up what it seems is happening in the sim.

[SpecterDC13]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:34 AM, Nedum said:

Hello,

I have to ask if this bug is a known one?

If I have two Fuel Bags under my wings and I have released all of my A2G Weapons, the Master Caution Warning appears and the Stores Config Light is enabled until I switch to CAT/I.

After doing that, I am now in CAT/I with 2 bags full of fuel under my wings. 

If I set up the F16 with 2 bags and only A2A Weapons, I have to use CAT/III. If I switch to CAT/l with this loadout, the Master Warning tells me I have to use CAT/III.

Fix incoming?

 

EDIT: please move to the Bug Section. Thx

 

Please refer to this forum above.  This is correctly implemented. Not a bug at all I can promise you that.  Just to sum it up, it is on you as the pilot to be in the correct CAT regardless of the caution.  The caution lights are more of an "advisory" hence them being called "Caution Lights", whereas the lights on the right glare shield for example (Canopy, HYD, OXY etc.) are your warnings and that is why they are red.  Also, per the -1-2 any stores with a TGP or TGP and HTS is always CAT III. ECM pods are CAT I unless loaded to a wing station.  And any asymmetric loadout (to include when firing off AAMs) is a CAT III condition.  Just two wing tanks is CAT I.  It is a weird logic system, but it is correct how they implemented it.  

Like I said per the -1-2 it is up to the pilot to know the correct CAT to be in.  The -1-2 shows loadouts and if the CAT box is shaded in then that means the loading CAT in the SMS does not agree with the actual loading CAT in those cases you ignore it and stay in the correct CAT per the manual.

The CAT switch does not limit your G at all.  With enough speed and the right conditions, you can rip the wings off the jet.   

[Nedum]

12 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

Please refer to this forum above.  This is correctly implemented. Not a bug at all I can promise you that.  Just to sum it up, it is on you as the pilot to be in the correct CAT regardless of the caution.  The caution lights are more of an "advisory" hence them being called "Caution Lights", whereas the lights on the right glare shield for example (Canopy, HYD, OXY etc.) are your warnings and that is why they are red.  Also, per the -1-2 any stores with a TGP or TGP and HTS is always CAT III. ECM pods are CAT I unless loaded to a wing station.  And any asymmetric loadout (to include when firing off AAMs) is a CAT III condition.  Just two wing tanks is CAT I.  It is a weird logic system, but it is correct how they implemented it.  

Like I said per the -1-2 it is up to the pilot to know the correct CAT to be in.  The -1-2 shows loadouts and if the CAT box is shaded in then that means the loading CAT in the SMS does not agree with the actual loading CAT in those cases you ignore it and stay in the correct CAT per the manual.

The CAT switch does not limit your G at all.  With enough speed and the right conditions, you can rip the wings off the jet.   

You write exactly that what I had told. It doesn't make sense to warn the pilot to switch to a CAT position, if the CAT position is wrong, or the CAT position is a "decision" of the pilot, no matter what the warning will tell him. If it is like it is, it's another stupid thing with the F16, but when it's like in RL. Ok.

The "fun fact" is, if there is another stores Config Warning, the pilot will not see that warning anymore, if he stays in CAT/III with 2 bags and all bombs released. He is forced to switch to the more dangerous CAT/I to make sure he can see other warnings.

Can one explain why there has to be such a stupid behavior? There is no reason for that. If there is any logical reason, please explain. I can't wait to hear it. Until then, it sounds so unbelievable stupid. They make fun with the pilots with false false warnings, without any reason. That's a bummer.

And again, why you guys try to tell me the CAT position doesn't limit Gs if I already said so? Is that a kid game, or what's going on?

[Swift.]

2 hours ago, Nedum said:

You write exactly that what I had told. It doesn't make sense to warn the pilot to switch to a CAT position, if the CAT position is wrong, or the CAT position is a "decision" of the pilot, no matter what the warning will tell him. If it is like it is, it's another stupid thing with the F16, but when it's like in RL. Ok.

The "fun fact" is, if there is another stores Config Warning, the pilot will not see that warning anymore, if he stays in CAT/III with 2 bags and all bombs released. He is forced to switch to the more dangerous CAT/I to make sure he can see other warnings.

Can one explain why there has to be such a stupid behavior? There is no reason for that. If there is any logical reason, please explain. I can't wait to hear it. Until then, it sounds so unbelievable stupid. They make fun with the pilots with false false warnings, without any reason. That's a bummer.

And again, why you guys try to tell me the CAT position doesn't limit Gs if I already said so? Is that a kid game, or what's going on?

If the pilot has two bags and bombs, and then drops all the bombs as you describe, he should be in CAT I. So the light illuminating to warn him of that fact is correct.

Edited July 28, 2024 by Swift.

[SpecterDC13]

5 hours ago, Nedum said:

You write exactly that what I had told. It doesn't make sense to warn the pilot to switch to a CAT position, if the CAT position is wrong, or the CAT position is a "decision" of the pilot, no matter what the warning will tell him. If it is like it is, it's another stupid thing with the F16, but when it's like in RL. Ok.

Like I said, it is not a warning. It is a caution. A Caution and a Warning are two different things.  Caution as defined by the USAF is any procedure or technique which could result in damage to equipment and a Warning is any procedure or technique which could result in personal injury or loss of life.  Did you even read the forum post I sent you the link for? If you have two tanks, 120s, 9s, bombs on 3 and 7, and a TGP that is a CAT III load.  If you drop your bombs you are still CAT III because of the TGP. If you have 4x120, 2x9s, and a CL tank, then that is CAT I but the stores config light will be on.  If you have that same loadout but with a TGP that is CAT III. If you have that same loadout but with no TGP but you have 2x Tanks then that is CAT III.  It is a weird system I agree, but that is just the way it works.  You gotta remember these pilots brief a lot before they go out so they know when they need to flip that switch depending on what they are doing. 

5 hours ago, Nedum said:

The "fun fact" is, if there is another stores Config Warning, the pilot will not see that warning anymore, if he stays in CAT/III with 2 bags and all bombs released. He is forced to switch to the more dangerous CAT/I to make sure he can see other warnings.

There wont be another config, but as a pilot you are constantly checking everything inside the cockpit. You are always checking instruments and always checking that caution light panel. And sometimes the pilot wont press the Master Caution Reset just to keep that reminder.  Again, you just ignore that caution if you know what your loadout is. And just about every A2G mission has a TGP on the jet so they will always remain in CAT III. So it is a non issue.

5 hours ago, Nedum said:

Can one explain why there has to be such a stupid behavior? There is no reason for that. If there is any logical reason, please explain. I can't wait to hear it. Until then, it sounds so unbelievable stupid. They make fun with the pilots with false false warnings, without any reason. That's a bummer.

Dont understand the frustration or disparity with this.  I explained that Cautions and Warnings are different.  It is just an advisory for the pilot. And if you are doing your periodic cockpit checks then you wont forget it if you just so happen to go to a CAT I condition in flight. 

5 hours ago, Nedum said:

And again, why you guys try to tell me the CAT position doesn't limit Gs if I already said so? Is that a kid game, or what's going on?

This I do not understand.  I was just ensuring that you or anyone else that sees this forum understands what the CAT is for. It is not just you that is on this forum you know.

Edited July 29, 2024 by SpecterDC13