Quest Pro - VirtualDesktopXR and Quadviews

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

If I lower the frame rate to 72, it is much better.

[mbucchia]

47 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

Any update on if/when QVFR will be included in VD? 

Code is 100% done in VDXR. But unfortunately it is currently blocked on an unforeseen limitation of Virtual Desktop's compositor. There's currently no guarantee this will be resolved.

[Qcumber]

21 minutes ago, mbucchia said:

Code is 100% done in VDXR. But unfortunately it is currently blocked on an unforeseen limitation of Virtual Desktop's compositor. There's currently no guarantee this will be resolved.

I'll keep my fingers crossed. 

[Phantom711]

If only VDs motion reprojection was as good as Metas ASW….but other than that, I definitely see your points…

[gonvise]

Taking advantage of the post and that I have bought a wifi 6e router, I would like to try the quest pro with Virtual Desktop, due to the good the things you have mentioned about it, but I would like to know before if I will be able to use, as I do via cable link, everything the next:

90 HZ

Scaling = 2.0

ASW = 45

bitrate = 900Mb

mbucchia's toolkit and QVFR

... can you really achieve the same clarity and fluidity via WiFi as with these settings with pc link?

[Phantom711]

@gonvise

90Hz: yes

Scaling 2.0: VD doesn‘t really call out the numbers, but „ultra“ and  „godlike“ are nicely supersampled. 
(2.0 is a VERY high setting!!!)

ASW 45: yes and no. VD has it‘s own MR method which is called SSW. I find it to be not as good as ASW, but you can set it to „automatic“ or „always enabled“ which would be the effect you are asking for.

bitrate 900: No. But you can select other (better) codecs then the ones that QuestLink uses. I find HVEC10 to be very good and only then tried to achieve a similar result with QuestLink and settled with 500mbps there. With 900 I get severe audio cutouts. 

EDIT: This is just for comparison. And to avoid any confusion: Settings in OTT are completely meaningless for VD.

OXR Toolkit and QVFR: yes and yes. (However: some people report problems with the toolkit and the latest Meta software v68)

Edited July 25, 2024 by Phantom711

[Qcumber]

6 hours ago, gonvise said:

Taking advantage of the post and that I have bought a wifi 6e router, I would like to try the quest pro with Virtual Desktop, due to the good the things you have mentioned about it, but I would like to know before if I will be able to use, as I do via cable link, everything the next:

90 HZ

Scaling = 2.0

ASW = 45

bitrate = 900Mb

mbucchia's toolkit and QVFR

... can you really achieve the same clarity and fluidity via WiFi as with these settings with pc link?

I would advise 72 Hz rather than 90.

A scaling of 2 (in OTT?) would only be necessary if your base resolution is unmodified in the meta app. Overall aim for about 4000 pixels. This is equivalent to Godlike x1.3. See below for QVFR settings.

SSW is better than it used to be but generally not quite as good as ASW.

The bitrate of link cable is better than anything you can get through WiFi but if you have a good, dedicated router you can get 400 Mbps with h264+. However, you don't need it. I run mine at about 200 Mbps as the latency is much better.

QVFR Is better optimised for VD, as per the post above. Less noticeable transition and faster tracking. I use centre 1.3 (boosting Godlike), edges 0.4, size 0.4x0.3. 

I don't really use OXRTK anymore other than contrast tweaks. It would be nice if VD had more nuanced colour and contrast adjustments. 

Edited July 25, 2024 by Qcumber

[Phantom711]

Does anyone actually know what would be the equivalent multipliers of the VD settings like „ultra“ and „godlike“ are. I personally didn‘t feel any need to boost them any further.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

1 hour ago, Phantom711 said:

Does anyone actually know what would be the equivalent multipliers of the VD settings like „ultra“ and „godlike“ are. I personally didn‘t feel any need to boost them any further.

From the developer's Discord

I capture an image of this and keep it on the Desktop

BTW, I would recoomend 72Hz also for it seems to reduce ghosting

I don't like ASW or another similar tech.

[Phantom711]

@VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

I tend to think in multipliers rather than the actual resulting resolution.

So I deduct from those numbers, that Ultra is 1.5 and godlike is 1.7.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

It is from the gorram developer! Talk to the guy, not me.  Thanks.

[gonvise]

After trying DCS with virtual desktop, with a dedicated wifi 6e router, I have not managed to reach either the graphic quality or the fluidity that it gives me through cable link, and although I love the virtual desktop compared to the quest app, once inside DCS there is no comparison.
Scaling to 2.0 via OTT gives a quality clearly superior than "godlike" of VD. I have tried to use the QVFR scaling, putting it at 2.0, but even so the clarity is below that with OTT 2.0. Maybe it is due to the video compression, which using the h264+ codec is a maximum of 400Mbs, but through cable I have it at 900Mbs (via OTT), and I notice the blurry vision of said compression comapared to 900Mbs.
Finally, as you say, SSW is not as good as ASW... not even close.
For all this, taking into account that the 4090 can handle via cable link scaling to 2.0, transmission at 900Mbs, and my goal is always to maintain 45FPS in all situations so that the ASW does its magic (at the cost of a little ghosting only in airplanes), for me the cable link is unbeatable at the moment. Even if you don't have the equipment for adequate performace, you can try to put (via cable link and OTT) scaling 2.0, encode bitrate 960Mbs, enconde resolution 3905 and ASW if you've never done it before and you'll see the "clarity" I'm talking about.

Don't get me wrong, since I first tried Virtual Desktop it has improved a lot, but taking into account that many of you prefer the VD (wifi) instead of the link cable, I don't know if I'm missing something or doing something wrong...

Edited July 27, 2024 by gonvise

[Jive]

10 minutes ago, gonvise said:

After trying DCS with virtual desktop, with a dedicated wifi 6e router, I have not managed to reach either the graphic quality or the fluidity that it gives me through cable link, and although I love the virtual desktop compared to the quest app, once inside DCS there is no comparison.
Scaling to 2.0 via OTT gives a quality clearly superior than "godlike" of VD. I have tried to use the QVFR scaling, putting it at 2.0, but even so the clarity is below that with OTT 2.0. Maybe it is due to the video compression, which using the h264+ codec is a maximum of 400Mbs, but through cable I have it at 900Mbs (via OTT), and I notice the blurry vision of said compression comapared to 900Mbs.
Finally, as you say, SSW is not as good as ASW... not even close.
For all this, taking into account that the 4090 can handle via cable link scaling to 2.0, transmission at 900Mbs, and my goal is always to maintain 45FPS in all situations so that the ASW does its magic (at the cost of a little ghosting only in airplanes), for me the cable link is unbeatable at the moment. Even if you don't have the equipment for adequate performace, you can try to put (via cable link and OTT) scaling 2.0, 900Mbs and ASW if you've never done it before and you'll see the "clarity" I'm talking about.

Don't get me wrong, since I first tried Virtual Desktop it has improved a lot, but taking into account that many of you prefer the VD (wifi) instead of the link cable, I don't know if I'm missing something or doing something wrong...

 

I suppose it's that trade off between clarity of Link and local dimming, faster eye tracking in VD. 

I'm not firm on either option ATM, still trying to find some balance 

[Phantom711]

@VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

Chill!

My comment was not aimed at you in a sense of saying you should have provided me the multipliers instead of the res numbers.

But indeed I find it a bit odd, that pretty much all other apps (WMR, SteamVR, Meta) use multipliers or percentage sliders and only VD uses their own fancy „names“ for it.

Yeah…not your fault…

[Qcumber]

45 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

sense of saying you should have provided me the multipliers instead of the res numbers.

The only issue with quoting multipliers is when there are several layers. It's then difficult to know what the final resolution will be. OXRTK has a useful function which shows you the overall Res when set to NIS or FSR (without scaling applied). It's easy to over supersample without realising. 

[gonvise]

11 hours ago, Jive said:

 

I suppose it's that trade off between clarity of Link and local dimming, faster eye tracking in VD. 

I'm not firm on either option ATM, still trying to find some balance 

In my case, I haven't noticed a difference in the speed of eye tracking with link or with VD. However, I recommend that you try the foveated rendering of the toolkit; as mbucchia said, it is a different method and in principle it gives less performance gain than the QVFR, but it works better for me since it demands less CPU.

Honestly, I have always believed that local dimming worked by enabling it only in the developer options, but it seems that according to what you say it doesn't work with link. Even so, I haven't noticed a difference either, perhaps because my tests have only been during the day.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

4 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

@VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

Chill!

My comment was not aimed at you in a sense of saying you should have provided me the multipliers instead of the res numbers.

But indeed I find it a bit odd, that pretty much all other apps (WMR, SteamVR, Meta) use multipliers or percentage sliders and only VD uses their own fancy „names“ for it.

Yeah…not your fault…

No hard feeling actually. Just clarification 

1 hour ago, gonvise said:

Even so, I haven't noticed a difference either, perhaps because my tests have only been during the day.

It does make a difference. When the “loading” screen goes all black, it is very noticeable here the cursor is not bright like Sirus. And the contrast in low light situation is much higher, in the headset. 

[gonvise]

16 hours ago, Jive said:

 

I suppose it's that trade off between clarity of Link and local dimming, faster eye tracking in VD. 

I'm not firm on either option ATM, still trying to find some balance 

3 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

It does make a difference. When the “loading” screen goes all black, it is very noticeable here the cursor is not bright like Sirus. And the contrast in low light situation is much higher, in the headset. 

Regarding VD local dimming, it is better than the one activated in the quest pro? Because despite what you say, the one activated in the developer options of the quest pro works for me in DCS. The blacks when loading are "almost" black, and the cursor does not shine like before v51, which is when they added local dimming. The night missions aren't perfect, but much better than with local dimming option disabled. Or I am missing something (which could be the case), because as I said, I have never stopped "noticing" that I have local dimming in DCS, or you have not tried the local dimming that is in the developer options. Could it be?

[sze5003]

I think this is the right forum topic for this inquiry. As of the latest DCS update I noticed a lot more hourglass loading and stutter using Oculus link cable. So i decided to try Virtual desktop with VDXR and HVEC-10 bit codec. I also tried other codecs. Using God Mode quality. Hvec-10 bit max bit rate is 150 and for H264+ it is 400. I am using a TP Link AXE5400 WiFi 6e router set up as an AP and the Quest Pro is the only device on it. 

Virtual Desktop loads up quickly and DCS also is very performant. I get a speed of 2100Mbps in the performance overlay. 

There is something weird going on I feel is related to eye tracking..basically it feels like I am wearing my HP G2 again. Everything outside of where my head is focused straight ahead appears as if there is Vaseline smeared all around the viewbox. I have to move my head and look at what I want for it to become very clear. 

Is there a virtual desktop config for Eye tracking? 

I don’t have this problem at all with link cable and Quad views eye tracking. I used the default Quad views config and you can barely tell stuff is blurry outside of your viewpoint and it is not noticeable at all because as soon as your eyes move, what you are looking at becomes clear.

Whereas with Virtual Desktop it feels like there is some sort of foveated rendering happening but it’s like the “box” is too large so everything outside of your immediate straight ahead gaze gets blurred out? 

Don’t know if I am describing it correctly but again I don’t have the issue with Link cable so not sure what is going on and if maybe someone else has noticed this? 

Edited July 26, 2024 by sze5003

[Qcumber]

34 minutes ago, sze5003 said:

I think this is the right forum topic for this inquiry. As of the latest DCS update I noticed a lot more hourglass loading and stutter using Oculus link cable. So i decided to try Virtual desktop with VDXR and HVEC-10 bit codec. I also tried other codecs. Using God Mode quality. Hvec-10 bit max bit rate is 150 and for H264+ it is 400. I am using a TP Link AXE5400 WiFi 6e router set up as an AP and the Quest Pro is the only device on it. 

Virtual Desktop loads up quickly and DCS also is very performant. I get a speed of 2100Mbps in the performance overlay. 

There is something weird going on I feel is related to eye tracking..basically it feels like I am wearing my HP G2 again. Everything outside of where my head is focused straight ahead appears as if there is Vaseline smeared all around the viewbox. I have to move my head and look at what I want for it to become very clear. 

Is there a virtual desktop config for Eye tracking? 

I don’t have this problem at all with link cable and Quad views eye tracking. I used the default Quad views config and you can barely tell stuff is blurry outside of your viewpoint and it is not noticeable at all because as soon as your eyes move, what you are looking at becomes clear.

Whereas with Virtual Desktop it feels like there is some sort of foveated rendering happening but it’s like the “box” is too large so everything outside of your immediate straight ahead gaze gets blurred out? 

Don’t know if I am describing it correctly but again I don’t have the issue with Link cable so not sure what is going on and if maybe someone else has noticed this? 

 

VD does not have integrated eye tracking. It still relies on QVFR. Check your QVFR config file and overall resolution. You need to make sure you are comparing like for like. Make sure the overall resolution is the same with VD as for your meta settings. 

[gonvise]

1 hour ago, sze5003 said:

I think this is the right forum topic for this inquiry. As of the latest DCS update I noticed a lot more hourglass loading and stutter using Oculus link cable. So i decided to try Virtual desktop with VDXR and HVEC-10 bit codec. I also tried other codecs. Using God Mode quality. Hvec-10 bit max bit rate is 150 and for H264+ it is 400. I am using a TP Link AXE5400 WiFi 6e router set up as an AP and the Quest Pro is the only device on it. 

Virtual Desktop loads up quickly and DCS also is very performant. I get a speed of 2100Mbps in the performance overlay. 

There is something weird going on I feel is related to eye tracking..basically it feels like I am wearing my HP G2 again. Everything outside of where my head is focused straight ahead appears as if there is Vaseline smeared all around the viewbox. I have to move my head and look at what I want for it to become very clear. 

Is there a virtual desktop config for Eye tracking? 

I don’t have this problem at all with link cable and Quad views eye tracking. I used the default Quad views config and you can barely tell stuff is blurry outside of your viewpoint and it is not noticeable at all because as soon as your eyes move, what you are looking at becomes clear.

Whereas with Virtual Desktop it feels like there is some sort of foveated rendering happening but it’s like the “box” is too large so everything outside of your immediate straight ahead gaze gets blurred out? 

Don’t know if I am describing it correctly but again I don’t have the issue with Link cable so not sure what is going on and if maybe someone else has noticed this? 

 

Do you have to enable the option of send eye tracking data in VD streaming settings in-VR. For me, QVFR works the same via VD than link.

Edited July 26, 2024 by gonvise

[Phantom711]

@sze5003

So basically what you are saying is that eye-tracking isn‘t working for you with VD?

Make sure to follow mbucchias instructions on how to use the QuestPro with QVFR.

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki/Meta-Quest-Pro

[sze5003]

3 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

@sze5003

So basically what you are saying is that eye-tracking isn‘t working for you with VD?

Make sure to follow mbucchias instructions on how to use the QuestPro with QVFR.

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki/Meta-Quest-Pro

3 hours ago, gonvise said:

Do you have to enable the option of send eye tracking data in VD streaming settings in-VR. For me, QVFR works the same via VD than link.

 

It said something along the lines of enable tracking data and then has two additional check boxes for for SteamVR controller tracking or another option. I enabled it, not sure how it got disabled. Now I see it working properly.

I remember setting this up properly but then it broke with the last update and I used the unsigned dll fix until the recent update fixed it. It looks like I may have been running link cable without eye tracking because the Quad views log was was not picking it up. Now the log shows it being picked up in Virtual Desktop. I will need to test link cable again.

 Found option 'smoothen_focus_view_edges=0.2'
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Found option 'sharpen_focus_view=1'
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Found option 'turbo_mode=1'
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Found option 'horizontal_fixed_section=0.5'
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Found option 'vertical_fixed_section=0.45'
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400: Eye tracking is supported
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400: Recommended peripheral resolution: 1536x1608 (0.500x density)
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400: Recommended focus resolution: 1076x1126 (1.000x density)
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Stereo pixel count was: 19759104 (3072x3216)
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Quad views pixel count is: 7362928
2024-07-26 17:13:07 -0400:   Savings: -62.7%
2024-07-26 17:13:15 -0400: Session is using quad views
2024-07-26 17:13:15 -0400: Edge smoothing: 0.20
2024-07-26 17:13:15 -0400: Sharpening: 1.00
2024-07-26 17:13:15 -0400: Turbo: Enabled

When using Virtual desktop is it advised to increase PD in DCS or should I be doing that in the Quad views config?

 

[gonvise]

2 hours ago, sze5003 said:

 

When using Virtual desktop is it advised to increase PD in DCS or should I be doing that in the Quad views config?

 

If "godlike" is not enough and you want more quality, it would be a matter of increasing the DCS PD or the central part multiplier of QVFR. But in my opinion, the problem with this is that in the end you are burdened by the 150Mbs of Hvec-10, or if you put h264+ then 400Mbs, but it is still far from the 900Mbs that you can put via cable link.
In short, I think that no matter how much you increase the scaling from the "god like" via DCS PD or QVFR, the encoding bitrate will not allow you to perceive the improvement in clarity as you should.
I insist, the quest pro "shine" with a 2.0 scaling, encode resolution 3905 and encode bitrate 960 via cable link (OTT), so the first thing I would do is test this to have a reference, then each one has his own eyes and expectations  

Edited July 27, 2024 by gonvise

[sze5003]

2 hours ago, gonvise said:

If "godlike" is not enough and you want more quality, it would be a matter of increasing the DCS PD or the central part multiplier of QVFR. But in my opinion, the problem with this is that in the end you are burdened by the 150Mbs of Hvec-10, or if you put h264+ then 400Mbs, but it is still far from the 900Mbs that you can put via cable link.
In short, I think that no matter how much you increase the scaling from the "god like" via DCS PD or QVFR, the encoding bitrate will not allow you to perceive the improvement in clarity as you should.
I insist, the quest pro "shine" with a 2.0 scaling, encode resolution 3905 and encode bitrate 960 via cable link (OTT), so the first thing I would do is test this to have a reference, then each one has his own eyes and expectations  

 

Those are the exact settings I use with oculus link except 500 bitrate because 900 gives me audio stutter and I don’t want to wear extra headphones. I figured a 13900k and 4090 would be ok to drive that bitrate but I suppose it also depends on the encoding chip you get in the headset. If quad views is working as it was before on link cable without the hourglass pauses or stutter then i will be happy with how it looks.