"Low price" Force feedback joystick

[Shadok]

Hi,

Can we expect some force feedback joystick with Winwing? Something like a URSA MINOR Fighter Joystick with FFB motors to have a "low price" FFB joystick ?

 

Edited July 24, 2024 by Shadok

[mikko.1842]

The Cyber Taurus is the closest thing to what you are asking for.

 

 

[Shadok]

Sorry, I just modify the title of the topic.

So nothing like the msffb2 long time ago

Seem the taurus will be expensive.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Shadok

[Aapje]

We may see someone develop something similar to the MSFFB2, but then updated with much more modern tech, but no sign of anything like that so far.

[propeler]

2 hours ago, Shadok said:

"low price" FFB joystick ?

What is "low price" for you? 

[Shadok]

For the Ursa Minor series, Winwing speak about entry level. It's more appropriate than low price and it's this kind of model that I'm ready to invest in to change my MSFFB2 joystick. Perhaps to put it another way, I'd like to have the same joystick as the MSFFB2 but with more buttons and axes available.

I can't give a price because Winwing (or another builder) will define the minimum construction cost.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Shadok

[propeler]

Then no. You should not expect something like it. As to build something similar to Ursa Minor FFB you need another company invest in RND of the project many years and then some China companies can clone their already selling well product (Ursa minor is a clone of Gladiator NXT, WinWing just changed external design a bit, and slapped couple of buttons to Kosmosima grip). Moza FFB is either a clone of Brunner or Rhino FFB base. I bet 99% it is some adaptation of one of those bases. And to make something similar to MSFFB for cheap - Someone need to do it for "not so cheap" first. 

Edited July 24, 2024 by propeler

[Shadok]

4 hours ago, propeler said:

 As to build something similar to Ursa Minor FFB you need another company invest in RND of the project many years and then some China companies can clone their already selling well product

 

This is just speculation, but if I follow your explanation, then Winwing can clone the MSFFB2 joystick and add more buttons and axes on the grip (what they do for the Kosmosima grip). This don't seem to need much RND from them. So maybe launching the idea can encourage them to build on.

[Vee.A]

I've been wondering about this as well. Not everyone needs those massive (hard to mount) high torque bases, and even with the good pricing winwing has that new base they showed is assured to be expensive.

[petsild]

Hi,

when you modify the msffb2 to your own image, add power, add an extension and change the grip, nothing can compete for the price.

[propeler]

13 hours ago, Shadok said:

This is just speculation, but if I follow your explanation, then Winwing can clone the MSFFB2 joystick and add more buttons and axes on the grip (what they do for the Kosmosima grip). This don't seem to need much RND from them. So maybe launching the idea can encourage them to build on.

You can propose them  

 

4 hours ago, Vee.A said:

Not everyone needs those massive (hard to mount) high torque bases, and even with the good pricing winwing has that new base they showed is assured to be expensive.

The problem is that it is not as easy to make smaller device. Bigger device is easier to build. A lot easier! A LOT! Smaller price do not make things cheaper. Usually it makes things more expensive. Miniaturization costs money.

We do not have such small devices not because nobody want to make it, but because it is extremely difficult engineering task - to pack device, that will met people expectation in force and smoothness, in form factor able to be used tabletop, and for the price that can be considered "budget device". It is so difficult and expensive, that nobody takes a risk of doing it first! Game theory take place there. Because as soon as  somebody introduce such design - it will be copied. And company who will copy it - will be the winner. Developer of original - will be the looser. As he will spend funds on RND and will not get reward of it, because to compensate RND he will need to make price higher than whoever clone his product. And higher price - less sells. Dead circle. Nobody want to be a looser 

Edited July 25, 2024 by propeler

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, propeler said:

The problem is that it is not as easy to make smaller device. Bigger device is easier to build. A lot easier! A LOT! Smaller price do not make things cheaper. Usually it makes things more expensive. Miniaturization costs money.

This is way too simplistic and one sided.

Smaller saves material, which is a cost saving. Overall, miniaturization can save money or cost money. It depends. Going from the vacuum tube to transistors and shrinking those caused huge savings. In that case, smaller was cheaper!

There are a lot of ways to make a FFB stick smaller in a way that saves money. For example, use smaller & weaker motors (which in turn means that you need less material for other parts of the system as well).

Quote

Bigger device is easier to build. A lot easier!

I respect your work on the Rhino, but from what you've said here and elsewhere, I feel that you take your experience in a low volume machine shop and apply it to large volume, factory manufacturing. However, this causes you to make statements that are very wrong. The very fact that you focus on how easy something is to make, rather than how cheap it is to make, shows an incorrect mindset for volume manufacturing.

In large volume manufacturing, you can get huge savings by spending quite a bit on an optimized design and things like plastic molds and specially set up machines. These investments would result in a huge price if applied to small volume products, but pay off hugely with bigger volumes.

It's a special skill set to know what large volume manufacturing methods work well in what situation, and to design a product that is optimized for certain manufacturing methods. Key to this skill set is to be able to bring costs down, for example by using less material (including by packaging things more efficiently and thus making things smaller), having fewer separate components, using cheaper materials, having fewer manual steps, reducing variance (and thus fewer products that go out of spec and have to be tossed), etc, etc.

2 hours ago, propeler said:

That will met people expectation in force and smoothness, in form factor able to be used tabletop, and for the price that can be considered "budget device".

The product I envision would not focus on realistic levels of force, which wouldn't work well on the desktop anyway. The MSFFB2 has around .8 Nm of torque, but the motors can do more than that (see the resistor mods), so it should probably be possible to go to at least 2 Nm with similar sized motors.

Then it would have a fixed stick, saving money on having a robust connector mechanism on both the stick and base. The lack of an extension and having the stick closer to the motor/gears, means that less motor power is needed anyway (this is also why simracing FFB systems often have relatively small wheels, since then the effective torque to the user is higher).

2 hours ago, propeler said:

Because as soon as  somebody introduce such design - it will be copied. And company who will copy it - will be the winner. Developer of original - will be the looser. As he will spend funds on RND and will not get reward of it, because to compensate RND he will need to make price higher than whoever clone his product.

That is why patents exist, so a design cannot simply be copied. Consumers also don't tend to like exact copies, except for designer brands. And there is an advantage to being first to market. Furthermore, the sales calculation for the second entrant is much worse, since they will lose a lot of sales to the first mover. So simply by being first and making it so a new entrant cannot enter that market without competition, you discourage new entrants, at least for the exact same niche.

This is why different companies tend to try to differentiate their products, so they are not actually fighting over the same exact demand, but they increase the size of the total market. For example, the styling of Lamborghini and Ferrari tends to attract different buyers, so there are people who are willing to buy a Ferrari, who would never consider a Lamborghini and vice versa.

Making a lower-budget desktop stick would actually be a way to distinguish oneself from the Rhino/Moza/Winwing/etc, which are all very similar in use case. A desktop FFB stick would attract a whole new population of buyers, who would never buy one of the other FFB options.

By your logic, no new devices would ever be made and there would be a lot of exact copies, but in reality that is not the case.

[propeler]

All you are saying is just a "common words" from person who just wants cheap FFB joystick, who overestimates factors which can make things cheaper, and underestimates opposites.  I have only one  question for you - if everything is so easy, why we do not have such device yet? You consider VPC, VKB, WinWing, Thrustmaster, Logitec who are on the market for years now, to be just a stupid companies who do not see a success with the cheap budget FFB joystick? I do not think so  Absence of such device is the direct sign that everything is not so easy as you describe. I'm sure all of them already did real math with good understanding of the market (I'm sure they have better data on what users want then me or you) and that's why we do not have such device(and have what they showed instead).

 

50 minutes ago, Aapje said:

That is why patents exist, so a design cannot simply be copied

You overestimate power of patent

50 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Consumers also don't tend to like exact copies

Aha.... Exactly....  Ursa Minor is the example

 

P.S. I do not work on the Rhino  

P.S.S. But I consider Rhino is a better option than Moza for the price

Edited July 25, 2024 by propeler

[Aapje]

@propeler

There are a bunch of reasons why we don't have such a device yet, but it's definitely not the case that it is impossible to make a substantially cheaper FFB joystick.

Quote

Aha.... Exactly....  Ursa Minor is the example 

The Ursa Minor is not a direct copy. And apparently VKB chose not to or couldn't patent the gimbal. That's how it goes.

[Shadok]

About the development of new product from Winwing, their answer was:

"Dear customer, according to our regulations, before our company launches new products, the customer service department can’t explain anything uncertain, either publicly or privately.

Sorry for all the inconvenience.

WINWING will unswervingly guarantees the quality.

Thanks for supporting WINWING and your proposal will be conveyed our product department."

Witch mean that if we want something like a entry level FFB joystick, the best way is to ask for it

 

[rob10]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

I respect your work on the Rhino, but from what you've said here and elsewhere, I feel that you take your experience in a low volume machine shop and apply it to large volume, factory manufacturing. However, this causes you to make statements that are very wrong. The very fact that you focus on how easy something is to make, rather than how cheap it is to make, shows an incorrect mindset for volume manufacturing.

In large volume manufacturing, you can get huge savings by spending quite a bit on an optimized design and things like plastic molds and specially set up machines. These investments would result in a huge price if applied to small volume products, but pay off hugely with bigger volumes.

I can completely agree with your contentions about the advantages available in VOLUME manufacturing, BUT I really doubt that any FFB joystick is really going to actually be volume manufacturing.  It's a pretty niche market of what's already a niche market ("near replica" controllers).

[Aapje]

Yes, so the companies most likely first want to see whether the expensive products are a success (and whether MSFS will support it natively), before they commit to a cheaper variant.

But that still doesn't make it impossible to make a much cheaper variant.

[propeler]

Continue to dream I bet there will not be FFB base cheaper than 500$ in next 3-4 years. There will not be FFB joystick cheaper than 400$ - EVER!

57 minutes ago, Aapje said:

The Ursa Minor is not a direct copy. And apparently VKB chose not to or couldn't patent the gimbal. That's how it goes.

It means - it is a copy  LOL. By the way, VKB have patent on their twist module. Moza copied it even keep twist lock screw at the exactly the same place.

Edited July 25, 2024 by propeler

[LucShep]

FFB stick iterations of what the VKB Gladiator and WW Ursa Minor are today, will eventually come. 
It just won't be now, because the "mainstream" (as in "non boutique") FFB stick market has just reborn.

It has also have to do with other reasons, such as creating an appeal and image, to such resurgent products.
Remember, the MSFF and MSFF2 were a success and very coveted (also the Logi G940, to some extent) not just because they had FFB, but also because they were considered "higher end" sticks for the mass-market, at that point in time. They were not "budget end" sticks back in their day.
Almost a parallel then, to what these Moza and WinWing upcoming FFB sticks are for today's market.

There were low budget iterations, like the Logi Wingman 3D Force Feedback, which were a flop in sales.
I don't think any manufacturer entering this resurgent market will want to risk investing blindly in such a product right away, maybe fearing that to happen.

There will be plenty small obstacles for these upcoming FFB sticks (software and reliability, for instances) with mostly "early adopters" who don't mind paying and going through that.  And manufacturers need to create the biggest imediate impact (image and product wise) while getting the biggest profit margin per unit.  Which more expensive and complicated "bigger" flight sticks, like those announced, will suit.

The more affordable sticks, like FFB iterations of the VKB Gladiator and WW Ursa Minor, would (and will, I think) obfuscate all that.
Their time will eventually come, but it's not that time yet.

Edited July 25, 2024 by LucShep

[Shadok]

21 minutes ago, rob10 said:

 It's a pretty niche market of what's already a niche market ("near replica" controllers).

Yes this is a niche market, However, Winwing has developed a new joystick game (Ursa Minor), which seems to indicate that they see an interest in it. But that don't mean they will be interested with a cheaper FFB stick.

[MAXsenna]

Continue to dream I bet there will not be FFB base cheaper than 500$ in next 3-4 years. There will not be FFB joystick cheaper than 400$ - EVER!
It means - it is a copy  LOL. By the way, VKB have patent on their twist module. Moza copied it even keep twist lock screw at the exactly the same place.

How much are you willing to bet?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Aapje]

5 hours ago, propeler said:

Continue to dream I bet there will not be FFB base cheaper than 500$ in next 3-4 years.

Could be, I never made any claims about anything coming to market. But with the Moza base getting sold for $550, it is very easy to imagine someone making something 10% cheaper. That is a difference that can easily be covered with a smarter design, a saving on materials, using smaller motors, or such.

And if the FFB market turns out to be much smaller than anticipated, Moza might even drop theirs to $499 to get rid of them.

5 hours ago, propeler said:

There will not be FFB joystick cheaper than 400$ - EVER!

Like I said before, that is trivially possibly by making a copy of the MSFFB2, which sold for less than that, in 2024 dollars. It's simply ridiculous to assume that we could not make something similarly cheap, with improved technology.

But perhaps you believe that this generation of FFB will be a flop and companies will deinvest, rather than continue on this path.

[propeler]

7 hours ago, Aapje said:

But perhaps you believe that this generation of FFB will be a flop and companies will deinvest, rather than continue on this path.

That's what I'm talking about all this time. If something is possible theoretically, it does  not mean it will turn into commercial product.

 

Even now you can purchase electronic components for DIY FFB 9-10Nm for around 120$, build enclosure for it from plywood or any other material, 3D print gimbal, spend some time for assembling it in your garage and got device for cheap. But turn it into commercial product - is totally different story. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by propeler

[Shadok]

So, it's not primarily a technological problem (the MSFFB2 is not theoretical), and that's how Aapje reacted to your first arguments.

If the problem is economic, as several speakers have pointed out, then maybe I didn't ask the right question in the first place. It should have been:

 - Do we want an entry-level joystick with force feedback?

The answer won't determine how manufacturers react, but it will play out one way or the other, depending on economic opportunities/risks.

[Aapje]

There is something that currently limits the market and that is a lack of official support for FFB in MSFS and non-optimal support in certain DCS modules and perhaps other games as well. So from that perspective it makes sense to first release higher-end products, as the buyers of those product tend to be more willing to tinker and buy add-on tools. Then the game/module developers can use those higher-end products for development, and the manufacturers of the higher-end FFB devices can simplify and improve their hardware and software, before attempting to go for the smaller-margins, larger volume market.

As for the demand being there, it seems to me that the players with a rig are only a fairly tiny fraction of players. So there should be quite a bit of demand for a desktop version, assuming that the demand of FFB is there in the first place.

Of course, to truly create big demand for FFB, we need quite a bit of marketing. Not just some old geezers who remember the olden days, or weird forum-dwellers who know everything (or think they do). But most people don't just magically become aware of, or excited about FFB. But as we've seen with simracing, FFB can become the way to sim.