GTX 1080Ti or RTX 2080Ti. Which to choose?

[Aapje]

@Holbeach

You have an ancient platform. For example, your memory is 2 generations old. Your PCIe is 3 generations old. Doing these small upgrades where you go from being very far behind the state of the art to slightly less far behind is just going to result in small improvements at relatively high cost (and effort).

My suggestion is to save a bit and then get a platform upgrade that can last you a good while. For example, an Asrock B550M Pro 4 motherboard + 5700X3D processor + 32 GB of DDR4 should run you about $400 new ($100 for the motherboard, $200 for the CPU and $100 for the RAM). The only issue is that you might need access to an old AM4-processor to flash the bios, so it supports the 5700X3D, but you can always just get one of the worst AM4 processors like a 1200 from ebay to do that, if the motherboard doesn't come with a newer BIOS.

Then you have a platform that should easily last you 10 years, given how long you seem to use your hardware for.

You can also go for AM5, which will cost more initially, but will presumably allow for relatively cheap upgrades in the future, and should last you longer than the AM4-platform.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Aapje

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

You have an ancient platform. For example, your memory is 2 generations old. Your PCIe is 3 generations old. Doing these small upgrades where you go from being very far behind the state of the art to slightly less far behind is just going to result in small improvements at relatively high cost (and effort).

I have to agree, certainly in principle...but I would like to offer some other thoughts.

For example:

3 hours ago, Holbeach said:

What do you think about replacing my board with a Gen 3 version? This would be an easy swap.

I'm not sure I understand.  If replacing the board would be an easy swap, and since you'd have to change the CPU itself (second-gen CPUs don't support PCIe 3.0 even on boards that do)...then it doesn't seem as if it would be a lot more difficult to swap the board/CPU with a newer setup that not only properly supports PCIe 3.0 but also is closer to being matched with GPUs like a 2080Ti.

Can you please help me understand why it would be easy to go to a Gen3 platform, where previously you indicated the platform 'can't be changed'?  (Do you already have a Gen3 setup available at no cost?)

Also, I believe @Aapje makes a point, but I also believe there could be a compromise that would actually be somewhat less expensive.  The costs he lists (for a good setup, no doubt) are all for new hardware.  Unless you do have a Gen3 setup available at no cost, then I assume there would be at least some outlay for that...and if, as above, you consider (a Gen3 swap) 'easy',  and if your situation is budget constrained...then I'd say you should consider saving whatever you can, while trying to find a reputable dealer in used parts.  I'm reasonably confident you could find something for well below the $400 that new stuff would cost, yet still be way ahead of where you are now.

I should also try to clarify something I said previously.  It is absolutely true that - *if* a GPU is otherwise fast enough - running it at Gen2 instead of Gen3 PCIe will cause some loss of performance.  The faster the GPU, the more the loss.  With that said, however, and as I mentioned, it's not an issue with lesser cards (like your 1070) because they're not fast enough to be 'choked' by the slower bus. The actual effect starts in the neighborhood of a 1080Ti or so, and will of course be more pronounced for faster cards (like a 2080Ti).

The thing is, this limitation is in proportion to the speed of the card, so that the effect is smaller at the onset (if you will)...thus cards at the lower end of the 'affected range' won't lose as much as higher-end cards will.   What I said is still true: You'll lose some for a 1080Ti, more so for a 2080Ti.  But we're talking a smallish loss...it's just that, in this case, it's furthering the loss from running on an older platform.  The Gen 2 vs 3 part isn't making as much difference by far as the older platform components are; it's still a loss of itself but it's the smaller part of the overall loss.

Going to a Gen3 platform will help - but (obviously) that depends on which Gen3 platform and what you put in it.  For example:  The third-gen 'Core i' CPUs (3770k, as one example) can still work on most Z68 boards that run second-gen CPUs like your 2600k.  And they support PCIe 3.0 (most of them anyway, and provided the board supports it).  But the brutal reality is that a 3770k is just not a huge upgrade from a 2600k (maybe 5%??).   So it's entirely possible that even a Gen 3 platform will *still* be poorly matched to a 1080Ti/2080Ti.

If, by comparison, you went to a much later Gen 3 platform....let's say something like a Z390 (this is strictly for the sake of discussion, mind you).  Put a 9900K on that Z390 board, fit it with some fast, low CAS RAM... now we're getting to a platform that is somewhat reasonably matched with a 2080Ti.

So, to summarize: Going to Gen3 isn't necessarily going to make a huge change here; it would depend entirely on which Gen3 - and that's a gigantic range of hardware spanning almost a decade of CPU evolution (~Ivy Bridge intro c2012 til Comet Lake was discontinued in 2020 - for the Intel side, of course).

Sorry for the length, but I do sincerely hope all that makes sense.

Edited August 1, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

The difficulty with suggesting second hand parts is that it is hard to predict what is available locally to the person and judging how good the deal is and the condition of the parts requires more knowledge. So it requires a lot of knowledge on the part of the person who wants to upgrade to be able to do these things.

And of course the risk factor is higher.

And it may be hard to find a deal that matches the needs in this case, because DCS can very much use 32 GB of RAM, but second hand bundles are probably going to most often be 8 or 16 GB. And a lot of cheap second hand AM4 boards will lack PCIe4, hampering upgradability, and when a new one is only 100 bucks...

Quote

I'm reasonably confident [he] could find something for well below the $400 that new stuff would cost, yet still be way ahead of where you are now.

Of course, but I would personally choose a solid 5700X3D build that can perform to a reasonably high level over the next 10 years, rather than get something half as good that only lasts for 5 years for $200, and then upgrade again for $200 to something similar to the 5700X3D build. Then the total spend is the same, but the guy will have a considerably slower system for those first five years, and will also have more fuss due to having to upgrade twice in that period.

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

The difficulty with suggesting second hand parts is that it is hard to predict what is available locally to the person and judging how good the deal is and the condition of the parts requires more knowledge. So it requires a lot of knowledge on the part of the person who wants to upgrade to be able to do these things.

And of course the risk factor is higher.

And it may be hard to find a deal that matches the needs in this case, because DCS can very much use 32 GB of RAM, but second hand bundles are probably going to most often be 8 or 16 GB. And a lot of cheap second hand AM4 boards will lack PCIe4, hampering upgradability, and when a new one is only 100 bucks...

Of course, but I would personally choose a solid 5700X3D build that can perform to a reasonably high level over the next 10 years, rather than get something half as good that only lasts for 5 years for $200, and then upgrade again for $200 to something similar to the 5700X3D build. Then the total spend is the same, but the guy will have a considerably slower system for those first five years, and will also have more fuss due to having to upgrade twice in that period.

While I don't disagree concerning used parts, the key is diligence - as applies to most anything in life.

Also, I think your assessment "half as good' is not completely fair or accurate.  For a good deal less in cost, I could put together something that's actually much closer than half the performance of what you're suggesting.

I won't argue whether used is 'as good' a deal as new (or vice versa), it can go either way.  Simply depends on the deal you can find.  Again, diligence.  In my work, I make a point of showing clients actual prices for new stuff they can go get themselves, with comparisons to what I can offer.  I also frequently do the legwork myself to show current used prices (as with eBay, etc).  Further, I will usually offer to just provide labor - if they want to buy their own parts, I'll do the assembly at a flat rate, so they can choose whatever parts they want, at whatever cost.  (To be accurate, I don't do this with someone else's used parts, only stuff purchased new by the client first hand - though I will also usually offer to do the shopping as well).

Something else your breakdown doesn't consider is that when I sell systems, labor for future upgrades (or warranty repairs) is totally free, and I also take used parts in trade - so the cost of any future work is going to be less than just buying new parts again or even used parts from a random source.  I value repeat business, and I prove it.

The decision is always theirs, and while they don't always choose my offer, the vast majority does.  There are times, although seldom, where I just cannot beat another deal - in which case I will advise the client "Go buy that" (and yes, I've done it, more than once).  Interestingly, on several occasions, I've had people who *didn't* choose my offer come back when it was time to do a new build/upgrade - and most often, they indicate remorse over not having taken my offer to begin with.

Edited August 1, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

16 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

While I don't disagree concerning used parts, the key is diligence - as applies to most anything in life.

Also, I think your assessment "half as good' is not completely fair or accurate.  For a good deal less in cost, I could put together something that's actually much closer than half the performance of what you're suggesting.

I won't argue whether used is 'as good' a deal as new (or vice versa), it can go either way.  Simply depends on the deal you can find.  Again, diligence.  

+1, Ditto. 



 

[Aapje]

@kksnowbear

Fair enough. I quickly looked at eBay earlier and I wasn't that impressed, but I took another look and something like this seems OK:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266909613953

That's $220 and it should get him way over the halfway point between what he has and my 5700X3D suggestion. It has PCIe 3, but that should be OK in many cases, even with a future GPU upgrades. I am wondering why the DDR4 speed is missing. Might be some awfully slow RAM.

Note that I didn't look very far, so there may be much better deals out there.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Aapje

[kksnowbear]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

@kksnowbear

Fair enough. I quickly looked at eBay earlier and I wasn't that impressed, but I took another look and something like this seems OK:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266909613953

That's $220 and it should get him way over the halfway point between what he has and my 5700X3D suggestion. It has PCIe 3, but that should be OK in many cases, even with a future GPU upgrades. I am wondering why the DDR4 speed is missing. Might be some awfully slow RAM.

Note that I didn't look very far, so there may be much better deals out there.

 

That's the spirit.  Just gotta keep digging, be patient, do your legwork, and for Pete's sake ask for/check references.  (And FWIW I agree completely, eBay is not usually very impressive...I like to think that's where I come in; used hardware (mostly) without all the drawbacks).

I have one of the boards in your link, it is really just about as bottom of the barrel as you can get lol but it would definitely fit the bill for that kind of money.  The RAM honestly looks like knock off HyperX Fury modules, seen lots of those but yeah...what speed?

5600G is a fairly good GPU, I have one here and it performs OK.  Especially nice if you want to run a second monitor without putting more on your GPU.

And it comes with a 1TB drive too!

Actually a decent find for tight budget entry level. 

Edited August 1, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Holbeach]

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

@Holbeach

You have an ancient platform. For example, your memory is 2 generations old. Your PCIe is 3 generations old. Doing these small upgrades where you go from being very far behind the state of the art to slightly less far behind is just going to result in small improvements at relatively high cost (and effort).

Then you have a platform that should easily last you 10 years, given how long you seem to use your hardware for.

 

 

Some people like classic cars, motor cycles, vintage aircraft, yachts, I've done them all, so why not pc's, then make them do more than what they're originally intended for.

..

[Holbeach]

4 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

I

I'm not sure I understand.  If replacing the board would be an easy swap, and since you'd have to change the CPU itself (second-gen CPUs don't support PCIe 3.0 even on boards that do)...then it doesn't seem as if it would be a lot more difficult to swap the board/CPU with a newer setup that not only properly supports PCIe 3.0 but also is closer to being matched with GPUs like a 2080Ti.

Can you please help me understand why it would be easy to go to a Gen3 platform, where previously you indicated the platform 'can't be changed'?  (Do you already have a Gen3 setup available at no cost?)

 

 

It's a hypothetical question, but no matter, it's now installed and running well.

Frames are a big improvement, but I'll give it a good run tomorrow.

Fingers crossed.

..

[Holbeach]

On 7/31/2024 at 2:43 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

Agree .. I used to run my GTX1070ti with all PC fans on silent mode, at  reduced rpm, but the RTX2080 that I have now ran so hot that I was forced to set all fans at max performance, pity but I will hold it until I can afford a more modern card.

The 2080ti is now installed and running at 80C under load and on low fan speed, but the room temp is 28C. so I think it is too be expected.

..

 

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Some people like classic cars, motor cycles, vintage aircraft, yachts, I've done them all, so why not pc's, then make them do more than what they're originally intended for.

That only makes sense to me if you also play vintage games. Besides, if you buy something nice and keep it long enough, it becomes vintage eventually.

[kksnowbear]

4 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Some people like classic cars, motor cycles, vintage aircraft, yachts, I've done them all, so why not pc's, then make them do more than what they're originally intended for.

..

I mean, I do get it, I love working with older stuff too...

But you're not making a 2080Ti do more than it was intended for...due to the old platform, you're actually making it do less.

When it comes to the 'hobby' part of computer work. I usually draw the line at where I can do more with older stuff up until the point that newer stuff at comparable/less cost can do the same/better.

Either way I am glad you're happy with the outcome

Edited August 1, 2024 by kksnowbear

[xoxen]

Enjoy the new card and the boost it gives for you. Maybe it gives you more headroom for future CPU upgrades, but for now if you are happy with it, this it what counts. If you have some figures before and after it might help others in a similar situation. I'm happy that you took a decision which improves your flight experience.

[kksnowbear]

15 hours ago, xoxen said:

If you have some figures before and after it might help others in a similar situation.

Indeed, that would be great.

It happens I have hardware such that I can reproduce the OP's situation, so I decided to do a test.  What I can say in my limited testing - which was not at all scientific just because of time, etc and thus decidedly 'down and dirty' - is that there was around 20% loss of the gain going to a 2080Ti from a 1070, due to being paired with a platform very similar to the OP's 2600k/Z68/PCIe 2.0.

Edited August 2, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Holbeach]

Here are pictoral frame comparisons from Tierra Del Fuego.

1070.

 

2080ti.

 

1070.

2080 ti.

2080ti.

2080ti.

Guam low level, was 20/22 fps, Now 45/60 fps.

In general, the Falklands has a 25/30% increase in frames overall, but Marianas, with about 120 aircraft and ground assets mobile, is showing an increase of 60+% and is very smooth.

GPU temps are high for Marianas, but I have 1 200mm fan not working, so I will replace it.

Removing 1 fan filter has gained a couple of degs less. Room temp is 28C.

..

Edited August 2, 2024 by Holbeach

[Nightdare]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:19 PM, Holbeach said:

Right, lets reiterate the rules of engagement.

We have an old system. This can't be changed.

What would you do to upgrade with a new graphics card. A GTX 1080 or rtx 2080 or something else.

..

 

If the game still runs fine and fidelity is acceptable: Nothing and save up for a total refresh

Because if your system isn't set for a complete overhaul now, you'll be chasing the horizon with outdated 'upgrades' whenever advances are made

[xoxen]

Thanks for the pictures incl. FPS. This gives a good indication of the improvement.

I'm totally with you upgrading step by step, a complete upgrade is more far away and your upgrade are low hanging fruits. And the new GPU is strong enough for the case you upgrade your Mobo/CPU/RAM anytime later.

Enjoy your new experience and upgrade the broken fan asap

P.S.: the FPS counter still says GPU bound, a good sign.

Edited August 3, 2024 by xoxen

[Holbeach]

3 hours ago, xoxen said:

Thanks for the pictures incl. FPS. This gives a good indication of the improvement.

I'm totally with you upgrading step by step, a complete upgrade is more far away and your upgrade are low hanging fruits. And the new GPU is strong enough for the case you upgrade your Mobo/CPU/RAM anytime later.

Enjoy your new experience and upgrade the broken fan asap

P.S.: the FPS counter still says GPU bound, a good sign.

 

Thanks for the positive feedback.

The 2080ti has been a great success. It arrived boxed, clean and looking like brand new, so for 285 quid it worked faultlessly..

It is the same width but deeper and longer then the 1070, but fitted ok and plug and play without incident.

Without the 20cm fan and 3 others on low, Afghanistan running up to 120fps and settings high, GPU temp are mid 70's and CPU mid 60s, perfectly OK.

VRAM is always at max, but RAM is reduced and never exceeds max like it use to.

Tech details are. 1080ti 50% increase in performance from 1070.

2080ti, 98% increase. from 1070.

2080ti, 431% increase from GTX 580, (top tier in its day), originally fitted in this machine 13 years ago with the same old 2600K.

1080p screen suits me but I'll look into upgrade.

.

 

[xoxen]

16 hours ago, Holbeach said:

1080p screen suits me but I'll look into upgrade.

Upgrading never ends if your are deeper into DCS  Look at my sig, everything should be fine, but I´m already planning for more. Higher resolution means higher load to the GPU, so there will be an impact in FPS moving to 1440p. No clue how much. If I´m right you could simulate it in DCS. Just enter 2560x1440 into the options and DCS will calculate like this. As your screen is smaller it will partly render outside of your screen, not visible for you.

In the old options menu inside DCS you can manually insert the figures, just for the case it refuses a given setting of 2560x1440 out of the dropdown menu in the launcher.

I love upgrading my PC and fiddling around with DCS to get the best out of it. And after a while there is always the itch in the fingers to change something, for sure within the range of my personal budget. I´m 51 already, the budget is better nowadays

Again, much fun with your new GPU and keep an eye on the temps, the ones you mentioned are definitely OK.

Edited August 4, 2024 by xoxen

[Holbeach]

On 7/31/2024 at 11:01 AM, LucShep said:

Those old OCZ ZX PSUs were really, really good. But that was in their day, a long time ago (circa 2011)....
 Not so sure it'll do so good with a modern 270W GPU, but then it was SLI ready in their day, and it's pushing the GTX1070 after all. 

The one thing that you really need to change urgently is that PC case (holy old box batman!).  It's absurdly claustrophobic for your new hot GPU, that won't go well.
You have really good budget ATX cases now, absolutely worth the effort on the components transplant to it.

PS: Take a good look at the Montech AIR 903 AIR MAX (great ATX case, a review by TPU), which costs just £60,00:

• https://www.scan.co.uk/products/montech-air-903-max-black-mid-tower-chassis-w-tempered-glass-3x-140mm-argb-fans-usb-ype-c-e-atx-atx
   
• https://www.overclockers.co.uk/montech-air-903-max-midi-tower-tempered-glass-black-cas-mon-01229.html
   

IMHO, there's no excuse not to do it right away with the new GPU coming.  More than giving that system a modern new look, it'll be a humungous jump in better internal space, layout, and especially airflow (4x 140mm fans that you plug to a SATA power connector of PSU and one single PWM to motherboard!).

 

 

 

Here's some temps for you. Settings High.

3 fans on low and 1 not working.

Worst case, Marianas with 125 mobile assets.

GPU at 99% contiuous, Max fps,  85C. CPU 65C.

Fps at 60 limit, 78C. CPU 60C.

Falklands, max fps, 74C, CPU 60C.

60 fps limit, GPU 60C, CPU 58C.

I don't think there's anything to worry about the Antec case.

Thanks..

 

[LucShep]

On 8/4/2024 at 4:37 PM, Holbeach said:

 

Here's some temps for you. Settings High.

3 fans on low and 1 not working.

Worst case, Marianas with 125 mobile assets.

GPU at 99% contiuous, Max fps,  85C. CPU 65C.

Fps at 60 limit, 78C. CPU 60C.

Falklands, max fps, 74C, CPU 60C.

60 fps limit, GPU 60C, CPU 58C.

I don't think there's anything to worry about the Antec case.

Thanks..

 

Oh but there is.... 

I'm sorry to say that you're misinterpreting those figures. Those are unusually bad temperatures for an RTX2080Ti Strix - it's most likely suffocating in there.

IIRC, that RTX2080Ti Strix was/is one of the coolest (literally) models of such a "hot" Nvidia GPU, usually high 60s for max core temps with fans just a bit ramped up. 
Yours is not even close to that.  If you're already hitting 85ºC (?!?) on the core with unlocked framerate (quote,"GPU 85ºC at 99% continuous"), it then means that your memory junction and hotspot may be going over 95ºC (you always want to keep those under 90ºC).  It's cooking in there, even with CPU+RAM nowhere near matched to it...

You want to keep that temperature reading you're seeing on that GPU always below the mid/low 70s, never above that.
60~70 FPS limit, that seems a better strategy for now, yes.  And a more agressive fan curve on the GPU as well.  

Keep the old Antec case somewhere for nostalgia sake if desired, but please think about the new modern case with big airflow - the lowest hanging fruit for you at this point. 
You don't want to risk degrading that nice GPU now if you've just invested on it.


PS:  look at the top of that RTX2080Ti Strix, there is a button switch for two BIOS profiles that it can either be on, "Quiet" (Q MODE) or "Performance" (P MODE).
Perhaps it's set on the "Quiet" (Q MODE) profile.  Please make sure that is set to the "Performance" (P MODE) profile. (note, turn off the computer before changing that switch)
The only change is the fans curve, which goes higher (much cooler temps, but louder) when using that GPU with its "Performance" BIOS enabled.

Edited August 6, 2024 by LucShep

[Holbeach]

On 8/5/2024 at 6:43 PM, LucShep said:

Oh but there is.... 


60~70 FPS limit, that seems a better strategy for now, yes.  And a more agressive fan curve on the GPU as well.  

 

 

The auto fan curve was too low.

Manual fan at 100% gave 61C at max fps on Marianas.

So bringing in the fans earlier on the auto curve, in MSI,

I settled on steady 69C at 74% fan speed. CPU is always at 61C. Case fans are on low.

Thanks for your response.

..

[TKhaos]

On 8/5/2024 at 6:43 PM, LucShep said:

Keep the old Antec case somewhere for nostalgia sake if desired

Depends what Antec case it is, plenty of airflow in something like the Antec Nine Hundred, originally purchased mine in 2007 and currently housing my backup system which is only 2 years old so not vintage. Although sounds like he could do with replacing broken fans and maybe upgrading the existing ones.

Came with 3 x 120mm front fans, 1 x 120mm rear fan, 1 x 200mm top fan and additional rear fan and side fan setup and never had a single heat related issue with it, even when I had dual cards in it. 

Edited August 8, 2024 by TKhaos

[LucShep]

54 minutes ago, TKhaos said:

Depends what Antec case it is, plenty of airflow in something like the Antec Nine Hundred, originally purchased mine in 2007 and currently housing my backup system which is only 2 years old so not vintage. Although sounds like he could do with replacing broken fans and maybe upgrading the existing ones.

Came with 3 x 120mm front fans, 1 x 120mm rear fan, 1 x 200mm top fan and additional rear fan and side fan setup and never had a single heat related issue with it, even when I had dual cards in it. 

 

Not sure if it's even a Three Hundred, but looking at a previous pick the OT posted, it sure looks way too tight for an RTX2080Ti Strix, too populated around the GPU (and that's before the new GPU was fitted).  I don't think the peripherals and PSU sucking same air below are helping either (the main reason why modern cases with PSUs at bottom have them inverted, sucking air from the bottom).

On 7/31/2024 at 7:26 AM, Holbeach said:

Here's the works. 13 Y/O AIH.

2 x 8 pin power.

P8 Z68-V with Pcie 2.0

1000w PS

 

 

 For something like 60 pounds/dollars/euros, a Montech AIR 903 MAX (4x 140mm fans included) is a no brainer really, IMO. 

null

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by LucShep

[TKhaos]

8 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Not sure if it's even a Three Hundred

Never noticed the photo, was too busy eating my lunch and trying to read and type

Yeah does look small and around Three Hundred size, looking at that photo can see it getting pretty cramped.

I just built a couple of systems for clients and used the Montech cases to save them some money, better spent elsewhere within their budget as they wanted the Corsair 4000D cases originally.

Personally the system I've built recently for myself I opted for the Antec DF700 but that comes in almost twice the price of the Montech, unless they get it when Scan has there offers on.