no bug Stick in game is slowed down compared to my phisical stick.

[Scrub]

Hello, 
I am doing a lot of aerobatics with the Mirage F1, solo and in a dual-ship aerobatic team. 

Since the last patch i noticed that the stick speed in game is limited, slowed down like in flight simulator. 
It is a big issue for me and my team as we need instantaneous responds to our stick inputs to fly in formation. 
It is also an issue to perform aerobatic manoeuvers like 4-point rolls, as the stick is slowed and not corellate to my phisical stick input. 

These are my selected options :

 

Edited August 3, 2024 by Scrub

[fausete]

Hi, this is not a bug, rather a design feature. In the real aircraft, a force proportional and opposite to the stick displacement velocity is applied to the stick. So, no matter how much force is applied to the stick, there will always be a sort maximum displacement speed on it.

Taking this into account in the simulation is very important for a feeling as close as the real aircraft as possible. The best way to represent this in-game is to include a maximum displacement speed for the stick, that way, small corrections are unaffected (as would be the case in real life) while drastic, instantaneous movements are impossible.

[Robin885]

The following video contains footage of the Voltige Victor aerobatics team. I have set the link to redirect to the final part of that show, which is the "dynamic" part. In this part, all the way to the landing pattern, the stick deflections are maximal. We can even see the stick at some points. 
https://youtu.be/r8o6yDm_Uf4?si=zY_FugknUfZYisfC&t=13m46s

In this sequence, the instantaneous roll and pitch rates are much higher than what can be observed in DCS since the last patch, and most importantly, the inputs are instantaneous.

I understand this workaround gives the feeling of having the plane working against your input for better accuracy, but they actually make violent inputs impossible in game while they definitely are in real life. 

[Loukuins]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:18 PM, Scrub said:

Hello, 
I am doing a lot of aerobatics with the Mirage F1, solo and in a dual-ship aerobatic team. 

Since the last patch i noticed that the stick speed in game is limited, slowed down like in flight simulator. 
It is a big issue for me and my team as we need instantaneous responds to our stick inputs to fly in formation. 
It is also an issue to perform aerobatic manoeuvers like 4-point rolls, as the stick is slowed and not corellate to my phisical stick input. 

These are my selected options :

 

 

Maybe tick "Emulation of effects of stick forces on aircraft behaviour" and put the slider to the max?

[Jef Costello]

17 hours ago, Loukuins said:

Maybe tick "Emulation of effects of stick forces on aircraft behaviour" and put the slider to the max?

What slider?

[TFS]

Could curves adjust for this? My helicopter controls seem 1 to 1 in vr. 

[fausete]

Hi @Robin885,

I'm not sure the video you posted is proof of a bug, as the maneuvers that can be seen are reproduceable on our aircraft (although it does take some adjusting to not having the stick moving at the same rate as your physical stick). For example, you can see the pilot overshooting the position he's aiming for by about 5-10º each time and then correcting, which is to be expected especially taking into account there is no dampening device in roll in this aircraft, and is a similar behaviour as what can be achieved in our simulator.

Just to show this is not something we invented: we tested a pressurised F1 system and we could never get the stick in roll to go fully from left to right in less than 1 and a half seconds (more in pitch), this matches what can be seen in some videos (such as the following one).

 

In the simulator the max velocity of the stick in roll is limited to 1 second from side to side, as we assumed that a pilot would probably be stronger, have more leverage due to the harness and have more adrenaline than we did when performing the tests.

That being said, we will consult our SMEs on the matter and might consider a small adjustment based on playability reasons.

[Robin885]

On 8/5/2024 at 4:56 PM, fausete said:

Hi @Robin885,

I'm not sure the video you posted is proof of a bug, as the maneuvers that can be seen are reproduceable on our aircraft (although it does take some adjusting to not having the stick moving at the same rate as your physical stick). For example, you can see the pilot overshooting the position he's aiming for by about 5-10º each time and then correcting, which is to be expected especially taking into account there is no dampening device in roll in this aircraft, and is a similar behaviour as what can be achieved in our simulator.

Just to show this is not something we invented: we tested a pressurised F1 system and we could never get the stick in roll to go fully from left to right in less than 1 and a half seconds (more in pitch), this matches what can be seen in some videos (such as the following one).

 

In the simulator the max velocity of the stick in roll is limited to 1 second from side to side, as we assumed that a pilot would probably be stronger, have more leverage due to the harness and have more adrenaline than we did when performing the tests.

That being said, we will consult our SMEs on the matter and might consider a small adjustment based on playability reasons.

Full left to full right in a second makes sense, the problem is that at the current rate it does actually take more than a second to go from center to full deflection. 
 

I’m not sure, looking at the video you have shared, that the pilot is applying quick elevated pressure to the stick compared to the one I shared. 
 

In the video I have linked, the most important part is at 14:32. The pilot brings the wings level after a 90° bank, then pitches up to about 30-40° nose up to finish the demo. Both of those attitude changes are done much faster than currently possible. We have actually tried to make it look as close to this video as possible, but it just won’t work in DCS, the input is too slow. Not by much, but the difference is there, both in roll rate and pitch rate. 
 

If I may add also, related to another potential issue, at 07:02, the pilot tests the trim in pitch going full nose down to full nose up ("Le trim testé, réglé" translates to "Trim tested and set"). The rate at which the trim moves the stick is much different than observed in game. It is mostly linear all the way to the edges where it gets apparently slower, which is the inverse to the behavior observed in DCS currently. Hard to prove with just this video, but it does seem like the trim behavior is not correct in-game. 

[fausete]

I will take a look at the trim test when I can. But regarding the 1 second from side to side, can you publish a trk or video showing it taking more than 1 second? Because I can't reproduce it at all, both looking at the code or testing it with slowed down time, I see that it takes exactly 1 second to go from side to side.

[Scrub]

On 8/3/2024 at 1:24 PM, fausete said:

Hi, this is not a bug, rather a design feature. In the real aircraft, a force proportional and opposite to the stick displacement velocity is applied to the stick. So, no matter how much force is applied to the stick, there will always be a sort maximum displacement speed on it.

Taking this into account in the simulation is very important for a feeling as close as the real aircraft as possible. The best way to represent this in-game is to include a maximum displacement speed for the stick, that way, small corrections are unaffected (as would be the case in real life) while drastic, instantaneous movements are impossible.

But, can't you just make this feature an activable option in the "Special Menu", like some others dcs modules ?
Even it is your way to represent this in-game, the way it is simulated have a lot of inconvenients, espacially when flying with an FFB stick.

Feeling my inputs being damped in flight is very unpleasant,  as in no other dcs module, and no real aircrafts you can feel that there is a difference between your input and where your stick is in game.

 

Edited August 7, 2024 by Scrub

[fausete]

We will have a think about how to best procede about it (especially regarding the FFB case).

Having tested the real system, I have the feeling that it is an integral part of how the aircraft behaves, as it is physically impossible to make quick large inputs.

[Scrub]

1 hour ago, fausete said:

We will have a think about how to best procede about it (especially regarding the FFB case).

Having tested the real system, I have the feeling that it is an integral part of how the aircraft behaves, as it is physically impossible to make quick large inputs.

You are right, you cant do instant turns on a real aircraft as on our sim joysticks, but the issue is mainly that the diff between what we do and what the ingame controls allows us to do is really disturbing, especially at high speeds.

The stick moving speed seems to be too slow in game compared to some videos we can see on the net, like Robin's one, where you can see the pilot literally thowing his stick on the roll axis.

About the tests you've made, don't forget they were made on an ground hydraulic group, and a for lot of them, the rate of hydraulic flow is smaller than when using the aircraft's hydraulic pump (engine driven), wich induce a longer time for the hydraulic actuator to go from a full deflection to a full retraction, so it includes a longer time for L/G operation, airbrakes, and flight controls

[fausete]

I've not seen a video in which the speed of the stick is greater than what is set on the sim, this is easily testeable slowing down time and measuring. It is true that the initial impression is that the stick is severely slowed down in comparison but ours takes 0.5 seconds to go from side to centre while I've not seen a video in which it happens faster than 0.7 seconds, but of course we don't know the amount of effort that is being applied in those videos, so they might not be the best reference. We are relatively confident that the system we tried was pressurised to the correct pressure and the feeling was validated by our SMEs btw, but certainly with something as old, it's impossible to be 100% certain.

 

In any case, we do acknowledge that even if the displacement time is that high in the real aircraft, it makes for an uncomfortable experience in the sim. Our solution has been to increase the maximum stick speed for non-FFB users and to make some small modifications to FFB behaviour to hopefully convey that hydraulic resistance a bit better (and reduce the displacement time much more than in the non-FFB case). As with any hardware limitations, it's impossible to fully convey the behaviour of the real aircraft but hopefully with this we can achieve a better balance between realism and usability.

[Loukuins]

Also you need to take in account that the force to go to the maximum deflection on side of the roll require more than 27,4daN (it's the force given by the S.R.A on the spring system it self, it's also linked to the ARTHUR and there is of course stuff in between that and the pilot stick) of force it's A LOT. Sure there is the length of the pilot stick but it require a lot of force to move that, also in the videos you can hear that the pilot screams when moving that hard the stick meaning that the S.R.A is doing it's job.

Also don't mind correcting me if I misinterpreted something.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Loukuins

[gillouf1]

It's the Dashpot wich slow down the movement of the stick (the faster the movement is, greater is the force to move it).

ARTHUR only increase the force fonction to the Mach and altitude, and has 2 positions: "Grand ARTHUR" = big effort; "Petit ARTHUR" = little effort.

 

@+

Edited August 13, 2024 by gillouf1

[Loukuins]

5 hours ago, gillouf1 said:

It's the Dashpot wich slow down the movement of the stick (the faster the movement is, greater is the force to move it).

ARTHUR only increase the force fonction to the Mach and altitude, and has 2 positions: "Grand ARTHUR" = big effort; "Petit ARTHUR" = little effort.

 

@+

 

Yes, but it's for the pitch, I was talking about the roll that doesn't have a Dashpot. S.R.A is the main thing that add force on the stick, then on top of you have springs that have a threshold for the spoilers. It don't seems to have ARTHUR neither, but I'm not sure about that.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Loukuins

[gillouf1]

ARTHUR is only for pitch.

 

@+

[Loukuins]

2 hours ago, gillouf1 said:

ARTHUR is only for pitch.

 

@+

I see some servos or springs linked to ARTHUR in the roll HYD system, maybe just a return line.

[gillouf1]

No, ARTHUR is only for pitch: in roll, you have only the "SRA" (the spring box)with 3 springs to give this "curve":

 

[Loukuins]

4 hours ago, gillouf1 said:

No, ARTHUR is only for pitch: in roll, you have only the "SRA" (the spring box)with 3 springs to give this "curve":

 

Yes, I did just pointed out that it can be linked with the other circuit with a return line which it does but the ARTHUR system is of course seperated from the roll system and has no effect on roll.

[fausete]

Hi, can confirm that ARTHUR and Dashpot are just for pitch. Nevertheless you can still feel a very significant hydraulic resistance in roll.

Edited August 15, 2024 by fausete

[Scrub]

As the solution used to replicate the slow moving stick has some playability issues like the stick delay when doing 4-point rolls, why not to just add a tick to activate this feature in the "Special" Menu of the aircraft, like heatblur did with the F-4 for example ?

 

[les]

Hi 

I found this thread by searching for slow stick movement in the F1,  I love that you have done such extensive testing o reproduce the real 

aircraft, but my stick movement is also significantly more that 1 second left to right.  Attached video- if it looks right to you then Ill go with 

it!!

 

[fausete]

Hi @les, thanks for the test but was the aircraft hydraulic system fully pressurised in this case?

 

Edit: Made the comment more specific.

Edited August 20, 2024 by fausete

[les]

Mmm, I'm not sure- the speed the stick moves looks like that in flight or on the ground, I did a rough timings, actually i think it's close to your timings, i make it about a second to centre to full right or left.

I'm using a modified Microsoft ffb stick...