[2.9.7.59263] [MT] AGM-45 Shrike tracks targets inconsistently

[DSplayer]

Currently the AGM-45 has issues where it produces tone and doesn't track a target and sometimes it tracks a target without providing tone prior to launch. This is possibly connected to the AGM-45, for certain threats, tracking targets with all the seekers (such as the Fire Can radar being trackable with all the seekers) and the opposite being true (where even though the target can be tracked by one seeker, it cannot be tracked by another which also covers the same RF limit bracket as seen with some targets with something like the Mk 50 seeker and seekers that overlap with its RF limit bracket).

Refer to the F-4 manual page https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/stores/air_to_ground/missiles/shrike.html#seeker-heads which I created based on individual testing with Shrike seeker variant against almost every radar available.

Edited August 21, 2024 by DSplayer

[DSplayer]

Here are some tracks with some scenarios that I came across while making the table.

In the SA-2 track, only the Mk 22 seeker (on the #1 pylon) provides tone and track on the Fan Song (SA-2 track radar) while the other 3 (Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34 respectively) track without giving tone at all.

F-4E_Shrike_SA-2_Tone.trk

In the SA-19 track, this track has a similar issue to the SA-2 track where the Mk 23 seeker provides tone on the SA-19 and tracks but the Mk 24 Mod 5 doesn't provide tone and still tracks. This track also has the added issue where the Mk 24 Mod 34, which has a wider RF limit bracket that encompasses a wider bracket than the Mk 24 Mod 5 but narrower than the Mk 23, doesn't track the SA-19 at all even though it should since it should cover the same RF limit bracket as the Mk 23 and Mk 24 Mod 5.
F-4E_Shrike_SA-19_ToneANDTracking.trk


Another example of that is the Mk 36 being able to track the SA-10's tracking radar (Flap Lid-A) even though both Mk 49 seekers have an RF bracket that encompass the Mk 36's smaller RF bracket.
F-4E_Shrike_SA-10_Tracking.trk


Another problem encountered is that some radars seem to be trackable with all seekers for some reason. This can be seen with the SA-2's Amazonka rangefinder which can be tracked with any Shrike seeker model.
F-4E_Shrike_SA-2RF_Tracking.trk

Another problem encountered was the Shrike providing tone even though it didn't track the target. This can be seen with the Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, and Mk 24 Mod 34 which all provide tone but all fail to track the Tarawa.
F-4E_Shrike_Tarawa_No_Track.trk

Edited August 21, 2024 by DSplayer

[Northstar98]

Just for reference, I've created a table that lists all the ground-based radars in DCS and matched them with guidance sections that are within the same range (the table was originally posted here, where I've colour coded the guidance sections that work when used with the AI - though note that the overwhelming majority of this was conducted in an older DCS  version - I'm in the process of re-running them all).

Here I've used the names of specific radars (and their NATO reporting names where appropriate) and the systems they're associated with.

While there's more to it than just frequency, this should provide a preliminary matching of radars to guidance sections:

Spoiler

Radar:	System(s) Associated With in DCS:	Frequency Range /GHz	Radar Band(s) (NATO):	Guidance Sections Corresponding to Frequency Range:	Notes:
USSR/Russia:
1S11 - 1S91 [Straight Flush] (acquisition)	2K12M3 Kub-M3 [SA-6B Gainful]	4 - 8	G/H	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1, Mk 50	Sources contradict (C band or G band), exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
1S31 - 1S91 [Straight Flush] (track/illumination)	2K12M3 Kub-M3 [SA-6B Gainful]	8 - 10	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Sources contradict (H band or I band), exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
1L13 [Box Spring]		0.18 - 0.22	A	None
1RL144 [Hot Shot] (acquisition)	2K22 Tunguska (2S6) [SA-19 Grison]	2 - 3	E	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50
1RL144 [Hot Shot] (track/fire-control)	2K22 Tunguska (2S6) [SA-19 Grison]	10 - 20	J	None
55G6 [Tall Rack]		0.03 - 0.3	A/B	None
5N59S [Tin Shield-B]	*S-200M/VE Vega-M/E [SA-5B Gammon], S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	2.85 - 3.82	E/F	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50	*IRL isn't associated with any version of the SA-5 (EWR or SA-10 acquisition radar)
5N62V [Square Pair]	S-200M/VE Vega-M/E [SA-5B Gammon]	1.55 - 3.9	D/F	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50	Possibly incorrect - most sources state this operates in the H band, centered around 6.66 GHz.
5N63S [Flap Lid-B]	S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	8 - 20	I/J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
5N64K/S [Big Bird-A/B]	S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	2.9 - 3.3	E/F	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50
5N66M [Clam Shell]	S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	8 - 10	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Sources contradict each other (either E/F band or I band)
9S18M1 [Snow Drift]	9K37M1 Buk-M1 [SA-11 Gadfly]	6 - 10	H/I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
9S35M1 [Fire Dome]	9K37M1 Buk-M1 [SA-11 Gadfly]	6 - 10	H/I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
9S80M1 Sborka-M1 (PPRU-M1) [Dog Ear]	Various short-range PVO-SV systems (SA-8, SA-9, SA-13, SA-15, 2S6/SA-19, ZSU-23-4)	3 - 6	F/G	Mk 22, Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 25, Mk 50
9S86 [Snap Shot]	9K35M3 Strela-10M3 [SA-13 Gopher]	Undefined	Undefined	None	Supposedly millimetric band (K band/30 GHz or above)
P-19 Dunay [Flat Face-B]	S-75V Volhov [SA-2E Guideline Mod 3], S-125M Neva-M [SA-3B Goa], *S-200M/VE Vega-M/E	0.83 - 0.882	C	Mk 37	*IRL not associated with any version of the S-200
RD-75 Amazonka	S-75V Volhov [SA-2E Guideline Mod 3]	Undefined	Undefined
RPK-2 (1RL33) [Gun Dish]	ZSU-23-4 Shilka	20 - 30	K	None	Possibly incorrect - actually operates in the J band, centered around 15 GHz.
SON-9 [Fire Can]	AZP S-60, KS-19	2.7 - 2.9	E	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 26, Mk 50	Cannot get the AI to engage this radar
SNR-75V [Fan Song-E]	S-75V Volhov [SA-2E Guideline Mod 3]	4.91 - 5.09	G	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50
SNR-125 [Low Blow]	S-125M Neva-M [SA-3B Goa]	9 - 9.4	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
[Land Roll] (Acquisition)	9K33M3 Osa-AKM [SA-8B Gecko Mod 1]	6 - 8	H	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
[Land Roll] (Track/Fire-Control)	9K33M3 Osa-AKM [SA-8B Gecko Mod 1]	14.2 - 14.8	J	None	Exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
[Scrum Half]	9K330 Tor [SA-15A Gauntlet]	4 - 8	G/H	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1, Mk 50	For both acquisition and track/fire-control radars
PRC:
Type 345(?)	HQ-7B (FM-90) [CSA-7 Sino-Crotale]	10 - 20	J	None
HQ-7B ACU	HQ-7B (FM-90) [CSA-7 Sino-Crotale]	6 - 10	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Known as HQ-7 Self-Propelled STR in DCS
NATO:
AN/FPS-117		1.215 - 1.4	D	None
AN/MPQ-46 HPIR	I-HAWK PIP Phase 1	8 - 12	I/J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
AN/MPQ-50 IPAR	I-HAWK PIP Phase 1	0.5 - 1	C	Mk 37
AN/MPQ-53 RS	Patriot PAC-2	4.48 - 5.45	G	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50
AN/MPQ-55 ICWAR	I-HAWK PIP Phase 1	10 - 20	J	None
AN/MPQ-64F1 Sentinel	NASAMS II	8 - 12	I/J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
AN/VPS-2	M163 VADS	Undefined	Undefined	None	Should operate in the J band (10 - 20 GHz)
Domino 3D (Track/Fire-Control)	FlaRakRad Roland 2	8 - 12	I/J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Known as SAM Roland ADS in DCS
DN 181 Blindfire FSA	Rapier FSA	10 - 20	J	None
Flakpanzer Gepard Track/Fire-Control	Flakpanzer Gepard	10 - 20	J	None
MPDR-12 (Acquisition)	Flakpanzer Gepard	2 - 3	E	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50
MPDR-16 (Acquisition)	FlaRakRad Roland 2	1 - 2	D	None	Known as SAM Roland ADS in DCS
Phalanx Block 1B Acquisition	LPWS (Centurion C-RAM)	12 - 18	J	None
Radarpanzer TÜR	FlaRakRad Roland 2	1 - 2	D	None	Known as SAM Roland EWR in DCS
Rapier Acquisition Radar	Rapier (Initial), Rapier FSA	Undefined	Undefined		Possibly operates in the E band (2 - 3 GHz)?

 

For ships, how were you able to determine whether you're firing at a search radar or a track radar? I ask this because some of them don't have a FrequencyRange defined (found under LN - which defines weapon systems and launchers e.g. track/fire-control/illumination radars), but they do have searchRadarFrequencies defined (which I presume is for search radars).

Speaking of ships, I might do a table like the above for ships, but given that there are a significant number of radars (including those directly relevant to AAW) that are either not present, not-implemented/undefined or are otherwise non-functional; that many of searchRadarFrequencies and FrequencyRange entries in the respective .luas make no sense and either don't correspond to the proper radar (for instance, a weapon system's track radar having frequencies corresponding to a search radar like in the case of NSSMS) or in some cases, don't correspond to any radar the ship actually has! ARMs themselves (Shrike included) are also problematic, in that they don't actually guide on emission sources (i.e. antennas), instead the centroid or origin of the unit with the targeted radar (or at least, that's what they seem to do), meaning that even if ships had damage models granular enough to allow for radars to be independently hit/damaged/destroyed (and many don't and those that do sometimes only don't include all relevant radars), they wouldn't hit them in the first place.

[Hobel]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb DSplayer:

In the SA-2 track, only the Mk 22 seeker (on the #1 pylon) provides tone and track on the Fan Song (SA-2 track radar) while the other 3 (Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34 respectively) track without giving tone at all.

One question is the sound when the Sa-2 tracks you?

I will have a look at everything later

[DSplayer]

17 minutes ago, Hobel said:

One question is the sound when the Sa-2 tracks you?

I will have a look at everything later

I believe so yes. The ALE-46 isn't that sophisticated that it can exactly separate tracking from searching modes like modern RWRs but the Fan Song should only be used when it's tracking a target.
 

3 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

For ships, how were you able to determine whether you're firing at a search radar or a track radar? I ask this because some of them don't have a FrequencyRange defined (found under LN - which defines weapon systems and launchers e.g. track/fire-control/illumination radars), but they do have searchRadarFrequencies defined (which I presume is for search radars).

For ships and combined STR units, you can set their AI up so they don't track you by making them go weapons hold so that's how I tested search radars individually where you couldn't separate them from track radars.

[Northstar98]

58 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

For ships and combined STR units, you can set their AI up so they don't track you by making them go weapons hold so that's how I tested search radars individually where you couldn't separate them from track radars.

Completely overlooked that one

One thing I've noticed from the tables above is that a few of the radars that are seemingly targetable by every guidance section are those without a frequency range defined.

For instance, the SA-13, Kuznetsov, Slava and Moskva only have a definition for searchRadarFrequency, but no FrequencyRange (which appears to be for track radars).

Mind you, that wouldn't explain the SON-9 or SNR-75 or 5N62 for instance, all 3 do have definitions and all 3 can seemingly be targeted by all guidance sections.

[Hobel]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb DSplayer:

In the SA-2 track, only the Mk 22 seeker (on the #1 pylon) provides tone and track on the Fan Song (SA-2 track radar) while the other 3 (Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34 respectively) track without giving tone at all.

Zitat

(Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34 respectively) track without giving tone at all.

MK22 goes to the search radar which is on continuously.

with the others the track radar is only seen by the seeker when it is on, maybe there is a difference between search and tracking radar and search radar gives a sound and tracking does not?

[DSplayer]

5 hours ago, Hobel said:

MK22 goes to the search radar which is on continuously.

with the others the track radar is only seen by the seeker when it is on, maybe there is a difference between search and tracking radar and search radar gives a sound and tracking does not?

The Mk 22 shouldn't be able to go after the Flat Face search radar (and it didn't exhibit that behavior when I tested it).

[Scooter556]

It doeskin help that Shrikes do not work on MP servers with other clients in the server

[DSplayer]

Just did a sanity check test against the Hawk TR and just noticed that Shrikes, for some reason, only track it when below a certain altitude (even if its illuminating and launching at you). Another problem I've noticed is that for some reason, the Mk 50 (which according to the DCS LUA's frequencyRange) tracks even though it should be outside of its RF limit. I wasn't able to test every single Shrike against it at low altitude however.

F-4E_HawkTR_Tracks_Only_Below_certain_Altitude.trk

[Hobel]

Am 22.8.2024 um 01:34 schrieb DSplayer:

The Mk 22 shouldn't be able to go after the Flat Face search radar (and it didn't exhibit that behavior when I tested it).

I have checked again, you are right then I must have made a mistake before.

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb DSplayer:

Just did a sanity check test against the Hawk TR and just noticed that Shrikes, for some reason, only track it when below a certain altitude (even if its illuminating and launching at you). 

Maybe Same Like here? If the Shrike-45 is not in the sa2 track cone, the missile is blind.

 

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

Maybe Same Like here? If the Shrike-45 is not in the sa2 track cone, the missile is blind.

But this is ignoring the fact that radars don't just radiate energy in one narrow area - they have sidelobes.

I'm not sure what the mainlobe beamwidth should be for the AN/MPQ-46 IHIPIR (though I assume it's quite narrow). Both the AN/MPQ-46 and the SNR-75V in DCS are defined with a beamwidth of 1.5707963267949 radians (i.e. 90°).

For the SNR-75, the beamwidth is dependent on what mode the radar is in:

• In wide, the area the radar illuminates is 2 overlapping rectangles in a + shape (one landscape to scan azimuth and one portrait to scan elevation, each rectangle covers 20×7°)
• In narrow, again, + shaped, but this time the scans cover 7.5×1.7° horizontally and vertically.
• In LORO (lobe on receive only) the illuminated area drops to a 1.7°-wide pencil beam.

In should be stated that DCS doesn't account for the different modes and that IRL, only the wide mode and LORO mode are applicable to guiding missiles (while guidance can be performed in narrow, the returns from the target and missile are received by different antenna pairs - the boresights of the 2 antenna pairs aren't necessarily perfectly aligned with each other, which may result in a miss. In wide and LORO, the target and missile are both received by the wide-beam antennas).

[Hobel]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb Northstar98:

But this is ignoring the fact that radars don't just radiate energy in one narrow area - they have sidelobes

 but that's how it is in dcs.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Northstar98:

Both the AN/MPQ-46 and the SNR-75V in DCS are defined with a beamwidth of 1.5707963267949 radians (i.e. 90°).

Did you get this from an lua?

Because it feels more like 3° or max. 15°. I'll test it again ingame.   I am curious what the correct value is 

[Northstar98]

19 minutes ago, Hobel said:

 but that's how it is in dcs.

It's still incorrect behaviour though.

I mean, every guidance section tracking the SNR-75V is "how it is in DCS" - it's still incorrect behaviour.

19 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Did you get this from an lua?

Because it feels more like 3° or max. 15°. I'll test it again ingame.   I am curious what the correct value is

That's what's present under beamWidth at least.

See line 17 for the AN/MPQ-46 and SNR-75V. It might be just for RWRs (I assume to approximate sidelobes, as 90° is far larger than the mainlobe beamwidth of fire-control radars). But it doesn't make sense that only the Shrike should only track on the mainlobe, especially at the distances it's fired at. Of course, this depends on the radiation pattern (and transmitted power), as well as the sensitivity of the Shrike's seeker and the signal-to-noise ratio.

Edited August 23, 2024 by Northstar98