F-5E performance (NOT A BUG REPORT)

[algherghezghez]

I am just curious about your opinions in this. I am aware this will need to be reported on the F-5 forum rather than here but again is more of a poll than anything else. In event 3 fighting the f-5 was no problem (I don’t know if it was scripted). In event 5 though I can almost never force a two circle (the f-5 immediately reverses as soon as I change direction like he has laser eyes) and the few times that I can get in a 2 circles he outrates me. I keep 420kts but he either stays there or gains on me. He looks like to have way too much acceleration. Did you guys have the same feeling? Again no ptobllems in the 1v1 mission.

Edited August 22, 2024 by algherghezghez

[PawlaczGMD]

4 minutes ago, algherghezghez said:

I am just curious about your opinions in this. I am aware this will need to be reported on the F-5 forum rather than here but again is more of a poll than anything else. In event 4 fighting the f-5 was no problem (I don’t know if it was scripted). In event 6 though I can almost never force a two circle (the f-5 immediately reverses as soon as I change direction like he has laser eyes) and the few times that I can get in a 2 circles he outrates me. I keep 420kts but he either stays there or gains on me. He looks like to have way too much acceleration. Did you guys have the same feeling? Again no ptobllems in the 1v1 mission.

The F-5 flight model is bugged and overperforms (ED doesn't acknowledge this afaik, but it's really obvious), also is just very good at defense. Even if it was correct, I don't think you can outrate him with 8 missiles loaded. About the same rate sounds right. Use the egg + lag like in the prev missions, or hope that he engages your wingman. Also try higher speeds like 480 to catch up to him. I did not see a huge difference in M6, and managed to pass it 2/3 times.

[algherghezghez]

16 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

The F-5 flight model is bugged and overperforms (ED doesn't acknowledge this afaik, but it's really obvious), also is just very good at defense. Even if it was correct, I don't think you can outrate him with 8 missiles loaded. About the same rate sounds right. Use the egg + lag like in the prev missions, or hope that he engages your wingman. Also try higher speeds like 480 to catch up to him. I did not see a huge difference in M6, and managed to pass it 2/3 times.

I passed the mission 2/3 times as well because of my wingman. As you said either he kills the bandit or the bandit engages n2 and I kill him. It was more of a curiosity if the F-5 overperforming was just my impression. In normal 1v1 instant action I am now unable to beat the F-5 in the phantom if npt by luck.

[Reflected]

6 minutes ago, algherghezghez said:

I passed the mission 2/3 times as well because of my wingman. As you said either he kills the bandit or the bandit engages n2 and I kill him. It was more of a curiosity if the F-5 overperforming was just my impression. In normal 1v1 instant action I am now unable to beat the F-5 in the phantom if npt by luck.

I made a 1v1 instant action that comes with the Phantom module. There I didn’t add extra weight to the AI but it’s still very easy to kill the f-5. 
 

the only problem is that since the improved ai BFM was released by ED they’ve been crashing into the ground all the time

 

The first 3 hops give you plenty of guideance on how to defeat them by maximizing your F-4s performance. AoA control, speed control, vertical maneuvers, use of rudder vs ailerons. If you master all the tricks and fly smooth and disciplined the dcs F-5 shouldn’t be a problem. 

Edited August 22, 2024 by Reflected

[PawlaczGMD]

You should be able to beat him 1v1 if the AI wasn't bugged, but I'm not sure you can rate him at any speed with full AA stores. But there are more ways to win than just staying at rate speed and waiting. A clean F-4 should outrate him though. I don't have the EM diagram for the F4 but I would try a slightly higher speed like I said. 

In MP, where AI nonsense is no factor, F-4 vs Mig-21 as an F-5 stand-in is close and will depend on skills, tactics, fuel, loadout, etc. 

[PawlaczGMD]

Ok, looking at this EM diagram, here with 2x aim9 and 2x aim7, so lighter than in campaign, your max rate is around 14 deg/s at 500 kts. This is about equal to the F-5, so you will lose the rate with 8 missiles, but I would still shoot for 500 kts. Also try the aim7 in flood mode against the sky if he extends.

[Phantom12]

Yes its quite clear if you look at turn rates and AI behaviour in Tacview that alot of the 1v1 events are quite scripted. Obviously this is necessary given the broken nature of the AI in DCS. That they can be forced into behaving in a way that seems even remotely correct is a feat in and of itself.

The AI in the 2v1 events is much less constrained but still I didnt have any issues staying at least stalemated in a rate fight with either the F-5 or F-86. And thats generally fine if you are the engaged fighter in that case anyway. The F-5 in DCS is a good standin for Vietnam era MiG-21s, and their main disadvantage vs the F-4 is how much thrust they have. Both can sustain similar turn rates but if things get slow the F-5 will never recover. The moves taught in the earlier missions are good basics for where to start vs the F-5, but if you need more guidance you can check out the original declassified have doughnut report, which contains a bunch of specific advice for what sort of tactics to use against the MiG 21. Basically extensions, pitchbacks and oblique loops can be used to keep meeting the enemy more or less neutral until hes at such an energy deficit that you can force a position advantage.