Jester useless.

[flavnet]

Hello everyone.
I am sad to note that Jester (or better to call him "Joker the Joking") is programmed to be incompetent (even a little idiot). I have flown many missions and the mister fantastic behind me can never detect on the radar a target approaching head-on (and at the same altitude) the size of a Su-17 or a Su-24 (let alone a Mig-21!!!). Even more ridiculous that at a distance of 5 nm the idiot pretends nothing happened and then tells me that the bandit is at six o'clock!!!!! Since I think I have understood that the WSO is useless, can some good guy kindly give me some advice on how the pilot can lock the target with the radar in "bore sight" mode (or whatever it is called on the Phantom). Also, at what distance from the target can the pilot activate the "bore sight" mode?

[Zabuzard]

Thank you for your feedback. It would be a bit more helpful for us if you can send a track showcasing a scenario where Jester was not able to spot a target while you think he (or a human WSO) should have. Then we can spot if there is an issue with how Jester behaved in that situation and address it.

From my experience debugging reports like that so far, it's mostly down to people not understanding this radar system properly and not necessarily Jesters fault. I.e. if replaying the same situation with a human WSO, they also would not have been able to spot the target any sooner. The pilot positioned the aircraft incorrect and expected too much from the radar. For example direct head-on, next to clutter, target distance around own altitude, look-down attitude,...

For Boresight, there are two modes you can use. Regular Boresight can be entered through a command on the Jester Wheel and covers roughly up to 10nm.
Cage/Boresight covers 5nm and can be entered using the CAGE button on your throttle.

In both cases, you can command Jester to lock the bad guy by holding Jester Context Command and placing the bandit in your pipper. For details see the manual:
https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/jester/combat/radar.html#dogfight

[Karon]

This type of topic is not useful without a track, a video or at least a tacview to try and figure out where the problem is.

If the Tomcat has taught everyone something is that a pilot who does not understand how radar and avionics work is almost guaranteed to blame Jester for their lack of understanding. And the Tomcat is many leagues easier to use than the F-4E.
From what I have seen, Jester is not particularly bad at finding targets: the problem is usually in the front seat. Since Jester cannot tell the stick monkey to change geometry and cannot do it itself, the pilot gets stuck because it does not understand why Jester is not (apparently) doing anything.

Jester has many improvements coming in the future but unless it starts telling humans what to do, the chauffeur really needs to put some effort into it.

[Q3ark]

17 hours ago, flavnet said:

Hello everyone.
I am sad to note that Jester (or better to call him "Joker the Joking") is programmed to be incompetent (even a little idiot). I have flown many missions and the mister fantastic behind me can never detect on the radar a target approaching head-on (and at the same altitude) the size of a Su-17 or a Su-24 (let alone a Mig-21!!!). Even more ridiculous that at a distance of 5 nm the idiot pretends nothing happened and then tells me that the bandit is at six o'clock!!!!! Since I think I have understood that the WSO is useless, can some good guy kindly give me some advice on how the pilot can lock the target with the radar in "bore sight" mode (or whatever it is called on the Phantom). Also, at what distance from the target can the pilot activate the "bore sight" mode?

You don’t have to be rude about it, the heatblur team have spent a significant amount time and effort bringing jester to life, they’ve done a hell of a lot to innovate and bring new features to DCS. If you’re having problems, ask for help, don’t automatically assume jester is at fault, it might be you not understanding what you’re doing. 
 

To your last question on what distance the radar bore sight mode can be used, I’d suggest you get your head in the manual, you might learn something.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Since everyone should know the F-4E radar is crap, it seems quite odd that HB did not spend more effort to make the Clown less of an idiot with regard to the non-radar aspects of his job.

The day we can manually edit his idiocy cannot come soon enough.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

There is a thread about Jester feedback/venting already:

 

[flavnet]

On 9/1/2024 at 8:39 PM, Zabuzard said:

Thank you for your feedback. It would be a bit more helpful for us if you can send a track showcasing a scenario where Jester was not able to spot a target while you think he (or a human WSO) should have. Then we can spot if there is an issue with how Jester behaved in that situation and address it.

From my experience debugging reports like that so far, it's mostly down to people not understanding this radar system properly and not necessarily Jesters fault. I.e. if replaying the same situation with a human WSO, they also would not have been able to spot the target any sooner. The pilot positioned the aircraft incorrect and expected too much from the radar. For example direct head-on, next to clutter, target distance around own altitude, look-down attitude,...

For Boresight, there are two modes you can use. Regular Boresight can be entered through a command on the Jester Wheel and covers roughly up to 10nm.
Cage/Boresight covers 5nm and can be entered using the CAGE button on your throttle.

In both cases, you can command Jester to lock the bad guy by holding Jester Context Command and placing the bandit in your pipper. For details see the manual:
https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/jester/combat/radar.html#dogfight




 

Hi Zabuzard, first of all I apologize for the delay in replying and thank you for your kind attention (a quality that is much appreciated and does you Heatblur credit). I have attached the track. I describe the action that sees a solitary Mig-21 opposed frontally to my Phantom at the same altitude.
1) Contact at 14 nm;
2) the contact is described by Jester as "bandit";
3) at about 10 nm I ask for lock-on with the context action (hold "V") and Jester responds affirmatively, but does not execute;
4) at about 5 nm I ask again for lock-on and Jester responds affirmatively, but does not execute (he really is a jokey guy!);
5) I continue to ask for lock-on until the Mig crosses overtaking me (at least Jester avoids telling me that the Mig is at 6 o'clock!);
6) I run away at 900 km/h to put space between me and the Mig and try to get into good firing position with a wide turn;
7) I ask Jester to return to standard scan;
'8) at about 10 nm Jester spots the Mig and immediately starts to ask for lock-on which finally happens (at less than 10 nm);
9) Jester starts to "call potatoes" and orders me to fire in vain because my plane is completely out of the firing parameters (so I can't even use the trigger);
10) at less than 10 nm Jester loses contact (good!!!) and I launch two sidewinders out of frustration (of course they get lost);
11) at about 4 nm Jester finds the Mig again and ...
at this point the track shows the Mig that overtakes me and so end, but things didn't go that way!!!!! In reality the lock becomes stable (hold "V") and I launch two sparrows of which the first hits the Mig.
I don't understand how the track I saved is different from what happened.
Anyway, it seems to me that there is material to reflect on the usefulness of Jester.

F-4E vs Mig-21.trk

Edited September 2, 2024 by flavnet

[Karon]

I ran your track (a stable and still view would have been appreciated). I ran it a second time, took control after the return and pressed "V". It worked as expected.

Run the usual stuff (repairs & co) and try again.

[Major Corvus]

It has been my experience that after creating a simple mission where I cold start th F4 with an air to air load out. I take off and climb to 30'000 and after a certain trigger a single Mig21 will spawn 100 nm in front of me at co alt on a hot heading.

even though I can actually see the target approaching in the centre of my reticle, long pressing of Jester context yeilds "no can do", until at between 18-20 nm he calls out the bandit and I've instructed him to lock the taget, and by the time I've waited the requisit number of Mississippis, the Mig has already launched it's antique fox one and shot me down. Even if I have that spare second or so where it hasn't yet launched, and yes I have the switchology correct, the sodding Sparrow refuses to come off the rail.

[Zabuzard]

It has been my experience that after creating a simple mission where I cold start th F4 with an air to air load out. I take off and climb to 30'000 and after a certain trigger a single Mig21 will spawn 100 nm in front of me at co alt on a hot heading.
even though I can actually see the target approaching in the centre of my reticle, long pressing of Jester context yeilds "no can do", until at between 18-20 nm he calls out the bandit and I've instructed him to lock the taget, and by the time I've waited the requisit number of Mississippis, the Mig has already launched it's antique fox one and shot me down. Even if I have that spare second or so where it hasn't yet launched, and yes I have the switchology correct, the sodding Sparrow refuses to come off the rail.

What you are describing generally sounds like correct behavior though.
If you are unsure, you can send us a track or the mission file and we will have a look. Thanks.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

30 minutes ago, Major Corvus said:

and by the time I've waited the requisit number of Mississippis, the Mig has already launched it's antique fox one and shot me down.

That’s the problem with the extremely simplified AI that we have: in our own modules we have realistic detection ranges and realistic limits on target acquisition, but the AI don’t care and lock you up instantly without any of the limitations we have to deal with…

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Major Corvus said:

It has been my experience that after creating a simple mission where I cold start th F4 with an air to air load out. I take off and climb to 30'000 and after a certain trigger a single Mig21 will spawn 100 nm in front of me at co alt on a hot heading.

even though I can actually see the target approaching in the centre of my reticle, long pressing of Jester context yeilds "no can do", until at between 18-20 nm he calls out the bandit and I've instructed him to lock the taget, and by the time I've waited the requisit number of Mississippis, the Mig has already launched it's antique fox one and shot me down. Even if I have that spare second or so where it hasn't yet launched, and yes I have the switchology correct, the sodding Sparrow refuses to come off the rail.

I don’t bother screwing with the radar much outside of flood mode in the Phantom but it isn’t going to be much good at hot (nose) aspect against a Fishbed. 
 

Get some aspect off the nose to give your radar chance. 
 

Better yet, fly with a wingman. Make the bandit choose and the other guy gets an easy shot. The Phantom is a wing tactics dream because the free fighter can get a Sparrow kill in the pre-merge lead turn from a wide bracket and if that doesn’t work it can get 90 degrees out of plane and shoot a Sparrow or heater in the first turn post merge. 

[Major Corvus]

On 9/9/2024 at 2:03 PM, Zabuzard said:

What you are describing generally sounds like correct behavior though.
If you are unsure, you can send us a track or the mission file and we will have a look. Thanks.

If that's how it's meant to work, then that's fine. I'll have change my tacticts in near peer head on engagements.

[Tango3B]

3 hours ago, Major Corvus said:

If that's how it's meant to work, then that's fine. I'll have change my tacticts in near peer head on engagements.

Also keep in mind that the 21 is a very small target with a rather small RCS. The detection range you described indeed sounds about right. But why don’t you use Boresight when you already have a „tally“ on the bandit? Much quicker and much more effective in this very situation. Also, you can still go STT from Boresight or even Cage if your radar grabs something ahead of you…

[flavnet]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry but no matter how many times I tried, using the advice I got (maybe I use it wrong), there was NEVER EVER a way to get Jester to track the Mig at less than 10 nm and it rarely managed to lock on. The very few times that the lock on happened, it happened at less than 5 nm (Sparrow useless as well as the Sidewinder, which is rear aspect). The only thing I understood is that in the frontal engagement with the Phantom it is better to ... turn around and run away.
If I enter the cockpit of the Mig, the tracking distance is the same as the Phantom, but at about 10 nm I (and without Jester the joker) I can lock on at 100% "and ... kill the Phantom"!!! By the way, I noticed that when I'm in the Mig, the enemy Jester is much more reactive than when I'm in the Phantom. Maybe he is simulated to be more intelligent when paired with an AI than a human.

I imagine that in the game it's like this because in reality the Migs did not encounter head on the Phantoms and surely with other engagement geometries the Mig (often unaware of the presence of the Phantoms) was an easier target to lock-on (then maybe it was the Sparrows that were not reliable).
I will try to use the Phantom in AA missions again but ... I do not deny that it is slightly frustrating.
It is useless to attach the mission track, I understood that the problem is me.

Edited September 18, 2024 by flavnet

[Zabuzard]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry but no matter how many times I tried, using the advice I got (maybe I use it wrong), there was NEVER EVER a way to get Jester to track the Mig at less than 10 nm and it rarely managed to lock on. The very few times that the lock on happened, it happened at less than 5 nm (Sparrow useless as well as the Sidewinder, which is rear aspect). The only thing I understood is that in the frontal engagement with the Phantom it is better to ... turn around and run away.
If I enter the cockpit of the Mig, the tracking distance is the same as the Phantom, but at about 10 nm I (and without Jester the joker) I can lock on at 100% "and ... kill the Phantom"!!! By the way, I noticed that when I'm in the Mig, the enemy Jester is much more reactive than when I'm in the Phantom. Maybe he is simulated to be more intelligent when paired with an AI than a human.
I imagine that in the game it's like this because in reality the Migs did not encounter head on the Phantoms and surely with other engagement geometries the Mig (often unaware of the presence of the Phantoms) was an easier target to lock-on (then maybe it was the Sparrows that were not reliable).
I will try to use the Phantom in AA missions again but ... I do not deny that it is slightly frustrating.
It is useless to attach the mission track, I understood that the problem is me.

If you are flying against an AI Phantom you are not fighting Jester or "our simulation" but EDs AI code, hence the different behavior. You also cant really comoare the two radars like that. They are very different IRL and also in how we and the thirdparty behind the Mig decided to simulate them.

Regarding your experience in the Phantom... not sure how to help you. It seems to work well for the testers and most users. If you would have a (working) track we could probably give you very concrete feedback very quickly :)

[Karon]

16 hours ago, flavnet said:

It is useless to attach the mission track, I understood that the problem is me.

 

But if you attach it, we can look at it and discuss it. Many players in your same situation would benefit from that since it seems that there is no bug involved but rather a procedural issue.

Unfortunately, and I am not talking about you here, there seems to be almost a fear of posting TacView or game tracks, and I don't understand why. No one is going to mock or judge them or something

[Kalasnkova74]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:46 AM, Major Corvus said:

It has been my experience that after creating a simple mission where I cold start th F4 with an air to air load out. I take off and climb to 30'000 and after a certain trigger a single Mig21 will spawn 100 nm in front of me at co alt on a hot heading.

even though I can actually see the target approaching in the centre of my reticle, long pressing of Jester context yeilds "no can do", until at between 18-20 nm he calls out the bandit and I've instructed him to lock the taget, and by the time I've waited the requisit number of Mississippis, the Mig has already launched it's antique fox one and shot me down. Even if I have that spare second or so where it hasn't yet launched, and yes I have the switchology correct, the sodding Sparrow refuses to come off the rail.

My two cents- all of us, myself included, need to really hit the books (digital or otherwise) on employing the AIM-7 before immediately blaming Jester or the aircraft implementation when things go wrong.

First, the reticle needs to be set to A/A or the “CAGE” option mils adjusted to 35.(disregard mils setting - this is for previous iterations of the F-4).  

Otherwise your reticle will not be aligned with the boresight radar beam and Jester will (probably) be locking thin air. 

Next, the Sparrow’s minimum and maximum range varies based on engagement altitude. At 40k ft a Sparrow’s max range against a 2 square meter target is 20 NM- but if the target is even 5000 ft higher, the engagement range is cut by 1/4th of a mile. 

Closure rate with the bandit must also be taken into account - because at high fractions of Mach you’ll cover a lot of distance in the five seconds the missile needs to tune, and 20 miles goes by VERY fast at head on closure speeds. Unless your control mapping is next level fast, you’ll be inside minimum engagement range before the missile is ready- and the interlock, if engaged, will not enable AIM-7 launch. Even if you successfully fired at this point because you disabled the interlock , the closure rate will cause the bandit to close inside of arming range of the in flight weapon anyway. So your AIM-7 isn’t going to detonate. 

Next , you can wave hello at the bandits front quarter IR/radar missile….

Note also that F-4Es pulse radar means aircraft with small frontal RCS like an F-104, F-105 or MiG-21 will have even smaller effective engagement ranges than the missile can kinematically achieve. Which is one reason why APX-80/Combat Tree was a game changer, since an equipped F-4 could track and engage a MiG-21 beyond the APQ-120s ability to capably detect in certain parameters. 
Ergo, without that system head on shots will be impractical to achieve because the realistic lock-on range is too small to permit full completion of the lock on- telemetry download & missile prep- launch -guidance firing cycle.  Larger RCS targets like a MiG-25, Tupolev bomber, etc will be easier to engage. 

Understand, what I’ve shared so far merely scratches the surface of what one should know about the APQ-120/AIM-7 employment. If a modern radar & AIM-120 combination is a brand new Formula 1 race car, the F-4E is a 1960s Ferrari P-1. A modern F-1 driver can’t just hop in a vintage P-1 and win races immediately. To be effective, much like that F-1 driver we Phantom Flyers must gain a new discipline of education in understanding the Sparrow and radar. Our Phantom’s don’t  work remotely the same as calling up a HUD icon and launching a pitbull AMRAAM, and Jester is NOT a magic “lock up the bandit” resource. 

 

Edited September 20, 2024 by Kalasnkova74
updated Mils detail

[Karon]

16 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

My two cents- all of us, myself included, need to really hit the books (digital or otherwise) on employing the AIM-7 before immediately blaming Jester or the aircraft implementation when things go wrong.

First, the reticle needs to be set to A/A & mils adjusted to 35.  Otherwise your reticle will not be aligned with the boresight radar beam and Jester will (probably) be locking thin air. 

Next, the Sparrow’s minimum and maximum range varies based on engagement altitude. At 40k ft a Sparrow’s max range against a 2 square meter target is 20 NM- but if the target is even 5000 ft higher, the engagement range is cut by 1/4th of a mile. 

Closure rate with the bandit must also be taken into account - because at high fractions of Mach you’ll cover a lot of distance in the five seconds the missile needs to tune, and 20 miles goes by VERY fast at head on closure speeds. Unless your control mapping is next level fast, you’ll be inside minimum engagement range before the missile is ready- and the interlock, if engaged, will not enable AIM-7 launch. Even if you successfully fired at this point because you disabled the interlock , the closure rate will cause the bandit to close inside of arming range of the in flight weapon anyway. So your AIM-7 isn’t going to detonate. 

Next , you can wave hello at the bandits front quarter IR/radar missile….

Note also that F-4Es pulse radar means aircraft with small frontal RCS like an F-104, F-105 or MiG-21 will have even smaller effective engagement ranges than the missile can kinematically achieve. Which is one reason why APX-80/Combat Tree was a game changer, since an equipped F-4 could track and engage a MiG-21 beyond the APQ-120s ability to capably detect in certain parameters. 
Ergo, without that system head on shots will be impractical to achieve because the realistic lock-on range is too small to permit full completion of the lock on- telemetry download & missile prep- launch -guidance firing cycle.  Larger RCS targets like a MiG-25, Tupolev bomber, etc will be easier to engage. 

Understand, what I’ve shared so far merely scratches the surface of what one should know about the APQ-120/AIM-7 employment. If a modern radar & AIM-120 combination is a brand new Formula 1 race car, the F-4E is a 1960s Ferrari P-1. A modern F-1 driver can’t just hop in a vintage P-1 and win races immediately. To be effective, much like that F-1 driver we Phantom Flyers must gain a new discipline of education in understanding the Sparrow and radar. Our Phantom’s don’t  work remotely the same as calling up a HUD icon and launching a pitbull AMRAAM, and Jester is NOT a magic “lock up the bandit” resource. 

 

Great post!

[BJ55]

17 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

the reticle needs to be set to A/A & mils adjusted to 35.  Otherwise your reticle will not be aligned with the boresight radar beam...

Can you tell me the source of that info? Reticle depression knob has no effect in A/A mode.

[Kalasnkova74]

3 hours ago, BJ55 said:

Can you tell me the source of that info? Reticle depression knob has no effect in A/A mode.

 

Good catch. For clarification: the 35 mil setting is used to manually align the reticle with the radar antenna for a boresight lock.  

For an immediately available online source consult this website, but the 35 mil guidance matches print sources on employing the boresight mode IRL.

https://flyandwire.com/2024/05/27/f-4e-boresight-mode-aim-7-and-speedgates/

I suspect that guidance predates the F-4D/E implementation of a RBL caged/ non-manual sight.
 

For our F-4E one need only flip the switch to “caged” to get the sight where it needs to be. Another great example of why we need to do our homework.