General FFB Base talks (Was: What are FFB sticks available? (Was FFB or MFSSB?))

[SuperKermit]

Could anybody knowledgeable please elaborate what exactly is the value proposition of FFB?

Does it make ones flying more precise? Or is it "just" about better immersion?

I am asking because I am considering an upgrade from my VKB Gladiator NXT. My main goal is to get more precision. I wonder if the FFB is adding to it or the added forces might be even counter productive.

[Dogmanbird]

i'm somewhat new to joystick ffb myself, but it's the immersion and the convenience of being able to change the characteristics of the stick to suit different aircraft you want to fly. In some cases this can be an automatic change when you select the aircraft in the game. You can also create/recall custom setup presets.

In some aircraft, the stick gets harder to push when you travel faster with more air applying pressure to the control surfaces, faster prop speed can do similar, stalls produce a shudder while controls get lighter etc. centring spring effect can be turned off when flying a helicopter, back on again when in a plane...so I guess it kind of makes flying more precise because you can feel what the aircraft is doing, possibly preventing a stall or feeling the build up of mechanical damage

Mostly the extra precision comes from using a more realistic length stick (finer movements) rather than a convenient short stick

However, in online multiplayer, it's probably like sim racing where the more realistic you make the feel (heavier force feedback and motion simulators etc), the less competitive you tend to be because it's generally easier to race without it bumping you around. It would be fine if everyone was using the same equipment

 therefore that's some justification for buying a less powerful ffb joystick like the moza or even an old ms ffb, that maybe can't provide enough power for a realistic length stick, but enough to at least give you a sense of what's happening to the aircraft, plus the convenience of quickly swapping between choppers and planes.

 

 

Edited February 12 by Dogmanbird

[propeler]

5 hours ago, Dogmanbird said:

However, in online multiplayer, it's probably like sim racing where the more realistic you make the feel (heavier force feedback and motion simulators etc)

It depends. From on side yes. From another - you do not overdrive, do not overg the plane and can control your energy better. 

[erniedaoage]

16 hours ago, SuperKermit said:

Could anybody knowledgeable please elaborate what exactly is the value proposition of FFB?

Does it make ones flying more precise? Or is it "just" about better immersion?

I am asking because I am considering an upgrade from my VKB Gladiator NXT. My main goal is to get more precision. I wonder if the FFB is adding to it or the added forces might be even counter productive.

It's mostly immersion, so you can feel the plane and what's going on. For example if you pull g and you reach a certain point the stick can shake/vibrate so you get feedback that you are pulling to much g and loosing to much energy. When you trim your aircraft or helicopter the stick stays on its position like in the virtual aircraft. So it's not centering in the middle like a spring stick. In warbirds your stick gets heavier the faster you go. And if you are a real pilot or know a real pilot, you can set up the stick so that it feels kinda the real aircraft. 

Precision depends more on an extension, because the longer your stick the bigger the action radius of the stick itself gets. Not every FFB stick will give you more precision, but if you are able to fit an extension on it, you are increasing your precision significantly. 

[Dogmanbird]

attached luggage scales at the green line and it measures a max of 6.5kg at 100% power with the 25mm motors and 12v 40A switching power supply. 

I think the vkb twist mechanism or its attachment mechanism will be the first thing to break if running at anything above 50% for long periods under full force

 

p.s  the random long stick throws in my videos was possibly caused by something I did in when unzipping the firmware / setup files and adding the update patch etc, but they are gone. I can now turn power up more and feels good at 30%...... and i feel safe

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Edited February 13 by Dogmanbird

[Mr_sukebe]

On 2/10/2025 at 6:22 PM, SuperKermit said:

Could anybody knowledgeable please elaborate what exactly is the value proposition of FFB?

Does it make ones flying more precise? Or is it "just" about better immersion?

I am asking because I am considering an upgrade from my VKB Gladiator NXT. My main goal is to get more precision. I wonder if the FFB is adding to it or the added forces might be even counter productive.

 

As already mentioned, I think that the key point is about immersion.  As a user of a Moza AB9, a few scenarios spring to mind that a standard "spring" base cannot do:

• It uses "profiles", which can be set by aircraft, such that a multitude of options can be set
• The F16 uses Force Sensing.  The Moza emulates that
• In say a helicopter, there is no re-centring, but it's also not a floppy mess.  You move it, and it stays there, but only requires a little effort to move
• In say the Spitfire, the resistance ramps up with speed, to reflect wind resistance.  As you slow to stall speed, the controls go mega light
• You can feel deployment of gear, going into VRS state etc

So IMO, the fact that it will do some "rumble" when firing a gun (lots with say the cannon on the Ka50), it's a bit of a sideline benefit.  The other benefits are far more beneficial.

For ref, my previous base was a Virpil CM with a 20cm extension, which is a brilliant piece of kit.  I wouldn't want to go back to a non-FFB now.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

3 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

The F16 uses Force Sensing.  The Moza emulates that

I get a Rhino the other day. Even though it has a profile for F-16C, but it does not simulate sensing at all. Now my AB9 is mounted on the arm of the sofa and it works as the stick for any plane with RHS stick.

I know some may ask, but I am not doing any direct comparison between these 2 bases, but I can show what the Rhino behaves when replaying a Ka-50III flight.

3 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

In say the Spitfire, the resistance ramps up with speed, to reflect wind resistance.  As you slow to stall speed, the controls go mega light

Same goes to F-14A/B. The plane is a little harder to pull at higher speed and it stutters a lot when the G-pull is too much and it helps a lot to avoid pulling too much (< 15 degrees AoA)

OT: Virpil 20mm extension is gold, unfortunately my current setting does not make it fit in, and there is no such thing as quick release so that I can use in for helo.

[Dogmanbird]

I saw someone using an NRG style steering wheel quick release (cheap-ish $40 - $60 aud clone) as a joystick quick release. I'm not doing this myself, but I have a few of them on different steering wheels and can confirm their firm attachment. There is absolutely no play and mine gets a total hiding, but you need to buy the mid priced ones, not the absolute cheapest. I have the ones below and probably hold a moza even though the forces are coming from a different angle and with more leverage than a wheel. They are actually the same design as used by moza for their wheels

obviously need to find a way to screw it on and it will add a few cm to the height

A camera wedge plate assembly (male and female parts) is a lower profile option, very sturdy but more expensive. Again you'd need to do some adapting.

Arca-Swiss bases (two 12cm ones used side by side) using two long Arca plates, would probably work also. Ssimple low profile design, reversible, quick to release and tighten (one knob on each base), the plate might be easier to attach to the moza base than the other options. The plates can be inserted into the base from above and don't need to slide into the base from the end, if space is limited, but would only clamp from the side with the tightening knob, but might be enough to hold it in place. The bases and plates are available in various lengths. China's copied it to death so it's cheap. 

NATO rails could be an option too, but the plates I have need to be inserted into the base from the ends, which is hard for tight spaces. There some that can attach from above.

 

 

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Edited February 14 by Dogmanbird

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Oh, you reminded me of my DSLR days.

I really some one will make such quick-release one day.

[SuperKermit]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Mr_sukebe:

• In say the Spitfire, the resistance ramps up with speed, to reflect wind resistance.  As you slow to stall speed, the controls go mega light
• You can feel deployment of gear, going into VRS state etc

Thanks for the explanation, guys! I can imagine the benefits especially with those stick and rudder planes.

However, the markup on - let‘s say a VKB Gunfighter - is still significant. And seeing those massive units I wonder whether a table mount would still be feasible.

As I understand there is no clear common recommendation on which unit would be preferrable, right?

[Mr_sukebe]

1 hour ago, SuperKermit said:

Thanks for the explanation, guys! I can imagine the benefits especially with those stick and rudder planes.

However, the markup on - let‘s say a VKB Gunfighter - is still significant. And seeing those massive units I wonder whether a table mount would still be feasible.

As I understand there is no clear common recommendation on which unit would be preferrable, right?

 

I've not seen a clear recommendation.  As I understand it:

 - Moza is cheaper, comes from a large company, which in theory should result in a better warranty and support, but they are a Chinese brand, so that's potentially debatable

 - I did get the impression that the direct alternative might well have it's software at a better state of maturity.  I've not compared the two, so can't comment on that

There is the point that WW have shown that they have something on the way that has a lot more grunt and could be better.  Virpil have said that it's on their radar, but no timescales.  The "beast" is another hand made unit.  The only other option is the Swiss unit, but that's nuts expensive.

[erniedaoage]

But the beast is clearly a floor mounting device.  Mine is quite heavy and if you don't own a steel table i wouldn't recommend a table mount. 

[Dogmanbird]

for the Moza,  maybe need to widen the holes a little for m6 bolts.  If you get it from Ali Ex, probably buy everything needed for $100au to be able to swap from side stick to centre stick. If needing to install the moza base from above (not slide it in from end), only the rails in green would be clamping, but it would be just like an extra wide swiss plate. you'd possibly only need to loosen one side to remove and attach. Could  flip one arca swiss base and remove this second bolt altogether if its in the way. If you buy longer base plates (they come in many lengths), you could slide the moza base back and forth to your liking. 

alternatively, use four shorter clamping bases that cover the entire length of the base, two left and two right. Use only the left two or right two knobs to tighten it. They come in shorter lengths but unfortunately don't seem to be available longer than 12cm. you could cover the entire base area with a little diy

 

 

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Edited February 14 by Dogmanbird

[Dogmanbird]

today I've started to build some budget ffb flight pedals from cheap bicycle parts and some scrap metal. I'll try using 20kg loadcells for the brakes

I copied the TPR pedal curve.   I'm not yet sure if to make them pendular or stick with the VKB style (i really like the T-rudder motion)   I'll try them t-rudder style first and go pendulum if it doesn't work out.

 

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Edited February 27 by Dogmanbird

[Aapje]

Back to the good old tradition of using bicycle parts for planes.

 

 

[propeler]

On 2/26/2025 at 8:11 AM, Dogmanbird said:

I'll try them t-rudder style first and go pendulum if it doesn't work out.

It's cool what you are doing just with manual stuff!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Change the topic title to reflect up-to-date discussions

[Dogmanbird]

Thank you

i'm in australia. we sold everything we had that was clever or valuable to china

[Dogmanbird]

i think this is basically how it will be. It's got 10cm of travel versus the t-rudder's 6.5cm 

i'm using a 20cm magnet motor which feels less coggy than the 25 and 30s, so hopefully 20's will work out nicely for pedals and a collective

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[Dogmanbird]

p.s the wire is just there to hold the pedals up until i install the load cells

i though i'd better mention that because my wife just said she didn't like the wires (facepalm).....but she is generally very understanding of my messiness

[Dogmanbird]

 

 

Edited March 1 by Dogmanbird

[Aapje]

Something is grinding. Probably needs some bearings.

[Dogmanbird]

it's my pedal guitar being plucked by the thread on the right linkages

[Dogmanbird]

 it's rough, but it works for me. I'll eventually mount it on it's own metal frame and give it a paint

i want to literally operate the brakes just with my toes, so i have the pedal travel set to 1/3 travel for full range output

total cost as is below was about $315 aud (including the approx $80aud for a license)

[Dogmanbird]

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