VM Windows 2022 & NVIDIA A10 GPU

[draconus]

30 minutes ago, AngryViper.101 said:

Could it be that during authentication I must open outbound ports that are not the usual that works for other software?

If it couldn't contact DCS server it'd say so in the log (auth failed) and in the starting window. DCS can still run without the login. Obviously it doesn't get over CPU and memory detection.

[AngryViper.101]

Is this helpful, coming back to the ModelViewer2.exe?

The modelviewer opens but with these errors in the log file, so my new question is this perhaps due to the need to install a special monitor adapter?

=== Log opened UTC 2024-09-16 07:52:47
2024-09-16 07:52:47.115 INFO    EDCORE (Main): system  affinity mask: 111111
2024-09-16 07:52:47.115 INFO    EDCORE (Main): process affinity mask: 111111
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 WARNING EDCORE (Main): hypervisor is active
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): CPU: AMD EPYC 74F3 24-Core Processor                 [1x L3 caches]
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): CPU has uniform cache size 32 MB (per cache)
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): all CPU cores have the same efficiency class 0
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): all CPU cores have the same performance class 0
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): common cores: {4, 5}
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): render cores: {0, 1, 2, 3}
2024-09-16 07:52:47.116 INFO    EDCORE (Main): IO cores: {}
2024-09-16 07:52:49.181 INFO    EDCORE (Main): pause10: 0.017504 us (std dev: 0.013884)
2024-09-16 07:52:49.181 INFO    EDCORE (Main): pause10: 514 cycles (std dev: 538.7)
2024-09-16 07:52:49.182 INFO    EDCORE (Main): Created boot pool: n:6
2024-09-16 07:52:49.358 INFO    GRAPHICSVISTA (Main): renderer: 'dx11backend.dll'
2024-09-16 07:52:49.387 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): DX11Renderer initialization (w:640 h:480 fullscrn:0 vsync:0 adapter:0 monitor:0 shaderErrors:1)
2024-09-16 07:52:49.505 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): Driver Concurrent Creates - 1
2024-09-16 07:52:49.505 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): Driver Command Lists - 1
2024-09-16 07:52:49.514 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): NVIDIA API init OK
2024-09-16 07:52:49.515 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): NVIDIA Display Driver Version 53846.r538_27
2024-09-16 07:52:49.515 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): GPU count:1
2024-09-16 07:52:49.518 ERROR   EDCORE (Main): No suitable driver found to mount bazar/shaders/metashaders
2024-09-16 07:52:49.556 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): commonPool: 48-128, cbPool: 4-14
2024-09-16 07:52:49.556 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): samplerPool: 5-16
2024-09-16 07:52:50.207 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): NVIDIA DLSS Minimum driver version was reported as : 445.0
2024-09-16 07:52:50.208 INFO    METASHADER (Main): Init filesystem: E
2024-09-16 07:52:50.214 INFO    DX11BACKEND (Main): DX11ShaderBinaries::loadCache bazar/shaders/fxo/fxo
2024-09-16 07:52:50.263 ERROR   EDCORE (Main): Can't open file: /shaders/metashaders/grass/grass.fx.

 

Other apps can initialize the direct x drivers? 

And I did install them from the dist folder in DCS.

 

[okopanja]

You have multiple display adapters, try explicitly using NVidia. E.g. laptops often have integrated + nvidia, and I recall that first time I installed DCS, I ended up with horror performance until it turned out DCS used the integrated adapter. Forcing the Nvidia in control panel solved my issue back then.

Not sure if you have there Nvidia control panel...

it's interesting to note that parsec acts as display adapter, this is probably to enable it to capture the image and encode before it streams to your client.

IMHO: your idea as attractive (would be interesting to hear at some point about your cost calculation), why buy the super-expensive PC, when you can rent one. I really think you need a ED developer to comment on this.

[AngryViper.101]

Okay, so I think I have found a solution.

> Instead of creating a basic Azure VM: Windows 2022: with the Grid Drivers 16.5 (538.46)

 

I found a slightly more expensive, well 0.20 USD / hour more Azure VM with vGPU 'Grid' Drivers 17.2 ...

And ... now I can reach the DCS WORLD Login Page...

I will test it thoroughly and feedback with screenshots!

Compared to AirGPU which charges me over 1.05 USD / hour this is not bad at all (0.36 USD / hour for the Azure instance), coming in at 1/3rd of the cost of running an AirGPU spot instance.

Then the only added cost is networking @ 3.65 and 256 GB Disk @ 15.18 USD in my region it is still more affordable. Watch this space for latency / performance testing but from what I saw using XPlane 12 it was buttery smooth on full settings ...

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by AngryViper.101

[AngryViper.101]

Ok, so I managed to get it running, but I had to switch from Zero Tier to TailScale for a Peer-to-Peer networking solution (to make Parsec) work. Even with this the Latency is around 60 ms, closest to a playable solution I managed to paste together via an Azure VM.

1.  edit the Parsec config file
   1. C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Parsec
   2. Add this line: app_custom_address = 999.999.999.999
      1. Where 999.999.999.999 is the host ip according to tailscape

 

 

 

[okopanja]

I gather any cloud service would go bankrupt if offering GPUs to DCS players.

I wonder if this would be a viable business model for ED?

DCS-in-the-Cloud

[Dr_Pavelheer]

Trying to run multiple DCS instances at the same time would put the server itself in the cloud 

[AngryViper.101]

As soon as I have a chance I will post more videos, comparing.

1. Downscaling the graphics to see if the latency issues subside

2. Upscaling the VM to an instance with a bit more GPU horsepower (GPU Ram) 

 

Then I will in Azure shrink the managed Data Disk to compute more accurate minimum monthly data costs to house DCS. 

My estimates currrently arrive at: 

* Disks (32 GB + 248 GB) +- 18 USD / month

* Public IP +- 4 USD / month

* 20 Hours / Week +- 20 * 0.36 * 4 = 28 USD / month <--- airgpu is over 1 USD per hour ... and around 30 USD for similar disk space

 

So in Azure +- 50 USD for a month, versus airGPU +- 115 USD for a month ...

 

Free tools, tightVNC, Parsec, Tailscape etc.

[MAXsenna]

As soon as I have a chance I will post more videos, comparing.
1. Downscaling the graphics to see if the latency issues subside
2. Upscaling the VM to an instance with a bit more GPU horsepower (GPU Ram) 
 
Then I will in Azure shrink the managed Data Disk to compute more accurate minimum monthly data costs to house DCS. 
My estimates currrently arrive at: 
* Disks (32 GB + 248 GB) +- 18 USD / month
* Public IP +- 4 USD / month
* 20 Hours / Week +- 20 * 0.36 * 4 = 28 USD / month <--- airgpu is over 1 USD per hour ... and around 30 USD for similar disk space
 
So in Azure +- 50 USD for a month, versus airGPU +- 115 USD for a month ...
 
Free tools, tightVNC, Parsec, Tailscape etc.

Is your end game that you gonna apply for a commercial DCS license and sell access time?

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[AngryViper.101]

No, I did not think about that ... I do these things for hobby / interest, since I am using Azure more and this was a good way to learn how to get something graphics intense working, I have a use case for a CAD application but nothing commercial.

But I may ask DCS World if they would be keen on that once I have it running to my satisfaction.

 

[MAXsenna]

No, I did not think about that ... I do these things for hobby / interest, since I am using Azure more and this was a good way to learn how to get something graphics intense working, I have a use case for a CAD application but nothing commercial.
But I may ask DCS World if they would be keen on that once I have it running to my satisfaction.
 

Best of luck. I used to work with blade workstations and HP RGS. This was before I got into DCS, so never tested that. Have a couple of enclosures and several workstations in storage, so I might test one day. Of course this is pure hardware and not virtualization though.

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[okopanja]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Is your end game that you gonna apply for a commercial DCS license and sell access time?

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You can not sell the DCS as a service due to the current licensing, at least not without ED approving.

At best you can seel the DCS-ready service-setup with user installing the software and bringing own licenses.

[MAXsenna]

You can not sell the DCS as a service due to the current licensing, at least not without ED approving.
At best you can seel the DCS-ready service-setup with user installing the software and bringing own licenses.

Like I wrote. A commercial license.

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[okopanja]

24 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Like I wrote. A commercial license.

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misread...

[MAXsenna]

misread...

No problem!

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[AngryViper.101]

Thanks for all the replies.

I decided to end this exploration.

It worked in Azure VM using the NVIDIA Image, for win 2022 server, that comes with 17.2 Grid Drivers.

Unfortunately, their standard Azure VM (win 2022 server) comes with the 16.5 Grid Drivers which does not allow DCS to successfully launch.

Due to latency not being wonderful in my region I decided to pause my VMS.

However, if anyone needs help to get this running in future do not hesitate to contact me for free advice.

I learnt a-lot about getting peer-to-peer network working and how to edit parsec' config file using TailScape. 

These items were uncovered in my journey!

1. using TightVNC - instead of Remote Desktop - to ensure the GPU is used to produce video for adapter, opposed to windows remote display adapter

2. Parsec, and config file of Parsec to make TailScape work

3. Zero Tier (but Tailscape reduced latency ...)

4. etc...

Cheers

[MAXsenna]

Interesting subject. Wonder what will happen down the road.
I forgot to ask you though. Is DCS client really supported on Windows Servers? And could you only choose a Windows Server image? No Win10/11 image available?

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[AngryViper.101]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Interesting subject. Wonder what will happen down the road.
I forgot to ask you though. Is DCS client really supported on Windows Servers? And could you only choose a Windows Server image? No Win10/11 image available?

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Yes, it worked fine on Windows 2022 Server.

Even AirGPU Make use of Windows 2022 Server.

You can choose a base Windows 10 or Windows 11 instance, but you need Microsoft Enterprise Licensing, 'Multi-Tenant License', 

Azure allows you to create a Windows 10 / 11 VM if you choose but they ask you to agree to the policy of having your own Multi-Tenant License in place, so if they audit you and find out you do not have that they may block your azure subscription, so I did not try that. However, I may purchase the Microsoft Enterprise F3 license for myself and test in there. All the the other games worked fine in Windows Server 2022.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, AngryViper.101 said:

other games worked fine

You mean like smooth 60fps and no input lag or that stutters and lags like in the video? Afaik it needs veeery fast network and powerful VM setup. What about the controllers - do they work fine too?

Edited September 18, 2024 by draconus

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

You mean like smooth 60fps and no input lag or that stutters and lags like in the video? Afaik it needs veeery fast network and powerful VM setup. What about the controllers - do they work fine too?

 

1. I think bandwidth is not an issue, but rather latency and low packet loss

2. I think that USB can be tunneled through IP in some cases, would be interesting to hear that part too.

 

[MAXsenna]

1. I think bandwidth is not an issue, but rather latency and low packet loss
2. I think that USB can be tunneled through IP in some cases, would be interesting to hear that part too.
 

2. Shouldn't be a problem, apart from what you mention in 1.
No issue at all with HP RGS. And we even ran USB license dongles from a USBtoIP HUB, where the license servers were virtual machines.

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[draconus]

3 hours ago, okopanja said:

I think bandwidth is not an issue, but rather latency and low packet loss

Technically right but they're usually connected due to connection quality and smaller possibility to saturate the bandwidth. Remember you have to get ex. 4K res. 32-bit (uncompressed or with no-loss alg.) 60 times/s plus any other network data.

[AngryViper.101]

From what I have learned, Latency is the killer for me, other than that when I scale up the VM can handle image (gpu) processing just fine and my experience is great, Parsec downscales the image quality for a very short period of time if download speed changes, however latency kills my experience.

XPlane 12 does not suffer as much.

[MAXsenna]

From what I have learned, Latency is the killer for me, other than that when I scale up the VM can handle image (gpu) processing just fine and my experience is great, Parsec downscales the image quality for a very short period of time if download speed changes, however latency kills my experience.
XPlane 12 does not suffer as much.

Do you think Vulkan could have something to do with it?

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[AngryViper.101]

13 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Do you think Vulkan could have something to do with it?

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I honestly do not know enough about the technical differences between DX11, DX12, Vulcan etc. 

Again, last night I enjoyed a good quality session of XPlane12 with highest graphics settings ... 

Streaming from an Azure VM located in West Europe Region - and I am located in South Africa ... and Parsec managed to provide me with low latency so it was smooth and never stutterred during take off or landing.

This was using an Azure VM with one of those Tesla T4 GPUs using the older Grid 16.5 drivers, since the Grid 17.2 drivers require a more expensive image to be deployed to the Azure VM.