Winwing dampeners for Orion 2 stick...benefits?

[AvgWhiteGuy]

I have the Orion 2 stick with all the extra kit and now using it for rotary flight, keeping the Warthog for all other planes.

I've pulled the springs and cams and immediately see/feel the benefits, there is still some light spring effect from the rubber boot.  Now trying to figure out what/why the dampeners are being recommended.

Can anyone explain what they do and why they would be beneficial for rotary flight control. Suggestions for any fine tuning would be greatly appreciated if relevant.

Thanks in advance,

Edited September 10, 2024 by AvgWhiteGuy

[LuckyStiff63]

I'm looking for this kind of info on WW gear, too.   It's pretty puzzling why a manufacturer would create "How to install" manuals for their products, but they never explain what specific parts do, when (or not) to use them, or how they affect the overall response of the controls.

I cant find an answer to a simple question like:  "If I buy the MFSSB base, can I even use any of the parts in the cam & spring kit?"   

It's pretty crazy, and definitely frustrating.

[Blackhawk163]

I can help. 

 

So, with the dampeners will help with actually keeping the Cyclic in place and depending on how tight you make them, can benefit from accidental deflections, I would suggest getting some dampening grease as there can be some play at neutral. I felt that the rubber boot was a hinderance and so I bought a cheap leather shift boot and replaced it with that. No more deflection from the boot. 

 

Lucky, looking at this video the answer is no as all four sides will be occupied by the MFSB.

[MustangSally]

3 hours ago, LuckyStiff63 said:

"If I buy the MFSSB base, can I even use any of the parts in the cam & spring kit?"  

The MFSSB base is force sensing. It does not require springs or dampers

Edited November 18, 2024 by MustangSally

[LuckyStiff63]

AvgWhiteGuy:   I hope I'm not hijacking your thread here.  That certainly isn't my intent.  I figured asking follow-on questions after 2 months was fine, but just let me know if you'd like me to "move along". 

 

On 11/18/2024 at 4:04 PM, Blackhawk163 said:

I can help. 

 

So, with the dampeners will help with actually keeping the Cyclic in place and depending on how tight you make them, can benefit from accidental deflections, I would suggest getting some dampening grease as there can be some play at neutral. I felt that the rubber boot was a hinderance and so I bought a cheap leather shift boot and replaced it with that. No more deflection from the boot. 

 

Lucky, looking at this video the answer is no as all four sides will be occupied by the MFSB.

 

Thanks loads for the info.   I guessed the dampers might be needed to keep the stick from banging around when used as a cyclic, and now I know.   I won't be using the stick as a cyclic anytime soon.  I think I would probably convert the base back to springs & cams for that, as the entire idea of a "force sensing cyclic" just seems 'all kinds of wrong', and probably wouldn't be much fun if you could get it working somehow.    

I have a tube of 767A I bought specifically for whatever new HOTAS I land on, my new baby, and it's just dying to be used.    

I've never owned a stick with a dust boot, so I lack perspective on that point.   Can I assume that issue is mostly a concern for rotor-wing flight? 

 

On 11/18/2024 at 6:54 PM, MustangSally said:

The MFSSB base is force sensing. It does not require springs or dampers

 

Thanks, that's good to know.  I wondered if there might still be springs used somewhere to help keep the stick centered when no force is applied, but apparently that's not needed.

Do you know whether the spring & cam kit would allow me to convert from MFSSB to a regular Orion 2 base, or whether other parts would be needed?   If so, I might go ahead and get them just in case.   

I appreciate both of your quick replies.

[Blackhawk163]

2 minutes ago, LuckyStiff63 said:

AvgWhiteGuy:   I hope I'm not hijacking your thread here.  That certainly isn't my intent.  I figured asking follow-on questions after 2 months was fine, but just let me know if you'd like me to "move along". 

 

 

Thanks loads for the info.   I guessed the dampers might be needed to keep the stick from banging around when used as a cyclic, and now I know.   I won't be using the stick as a cyclic anytime soon.  I think I would probably convert the base back to springs & cams for that, as the entire idea of a "force sensing cyclic" just seems 'all kinds of wrong', and probably wouldn't be much fun if you could get it working somehow.    

I have a tube of 767A I bought specifically for whatever new HOTAS I land on, my new baby, and it's just dying to be used.    

I've never owned a stick with a dust boot, so I lack perspective on that point.   Can I assume that issue is mostly a concern for rotor-wing flight? 

 

 

Thanks, that's good to know.  I wondered if there might still be springs used somewhere to help keep the stick centered when no force is applied, but apparently that's not needed.

Do you know whether the spring & cam kit would allow me to convert from MFSSB to a regular Orion 2 base, or whether other parts would be needed?   If so, I might go ahead and get them just in case.   

I appreciate both of your quick replies.

Quote

Can I assume that issue is mostly a concern for rotor-wing flight?

 Yes, I would believe so, although I did go about for a while using it with dampers only for a couple of modules with great success, 

 

You can convert the orion2 base back to its more ubiquitous configuration, however Winwing suggests that you just buy another base. I remember reading that people were having trouble installing them on their own and so to avoid headache I think that's why they made the MFSB unavailable for stand-alone purchase. If there are complaints that I have with the Orion 2 base is that it's a bit sloppy in the middle with the default cam and spring, and this is where the damper helps to minimize the bounce back as well as the different cams. I would ask if the MFSB kit come with cams and springs

[LuckyStiff63]

On 11/19/2024 at 10:09 PM, Blackhawk163 said:

 Yes, I would believe so, although I did go about for a while using it with dampers only for a couple of modules with great success, 

 

You can convert the orion2 base back to its more ubiquitous configuration, however Winwing suggests that you just buy another base. I remember reading that people were having trouble installing them on their own and so to avoid headache I think that's why they made the MFSB unavailable for stand-alone purchase. If there are complaints that I have with the Orion 2 base is that it's a bit sloppy in the middle with the default cam and spring, and this is where the damper helps to minimize the bounce back as well as the different cams. I would ask if the MFSB kit come with cams and springs

Your explanation of why WW discontinued the MFSSB upgrade kit is exactly the way I remember reading it somewhere on their site.  I'm not sure if the difficulty was with adding the limit reeds, or adjusting the set screws afterwards to properly center the stick, but they apparently had to resolve enough support tickets that they killed the idea. 

I've gained some good info from MFSSB users on r/hotas, and one especially helpful redditor said his base came with a set of the Orion 2's non-centering cams and default (weak?) springs.  I don't remember seeing those listed in the "what's included" section of the product info, so maybe they've discontinued that practice as well, if it led to too many support calls.  If I really needed a "traditional" base, I think I would probably just buy a 2nd one and swap them as needed.

 

[Blackhawk163]

2 hours ago, LuckyStiff63 said:

Your explanation of why WW discontinued the MFSSB upgrade kit is exactly the way I remember reading it somewhere on their site.  I'm not sure if the difficulty was with adding the limit reeds, or adjusting the set screws afterwards to properly center the stick, but they apparently had to resolve enough support tickets that they killed the idea. 

I've gained some good info from MFSSB users on r/hotas, and one especially helpful redditor said his base came with a set of the Orion 2's non-centering cams and default (weak?) springs.  I don't remember seeing those listed in the "what's included" section of the product info, so maybe they've discontinued that practice as well, if it led to too many support calls.  If I really needed a "traditional" base, I think I would probably just buy a 2nd one and swap them as needed.

 

MFSB

Yeah, the upgrade left a lot for those who decided to do it with sticks that couldn't be calibrated properly. I didn't go that route and never purchased the base with it.

 

Cams & Springs

The default springs are okay, I think it's the medium tension one. It stinks that you have to buy extra cams and springs and dampers to dial it in, when the competition offers them in the initial package.  It's not a deal breaker mind you, but I think it is a necessity if you're running an extension, and if you want to run a certain configuration where you have 4 cams and springs, that will put you back $100 usd. The four-sided cam setup is a special use case but a pricey one at that. 

[LuckyStiff63]

12 hours ago, Blackhawk163 said:

MFSB

Yeah, the upgrade left a lot for those who decided to do it with sticks that couldn't be calibrated properly. I didn't go that route and never purchased the base with it.

 

Cams & Springs

The default springs are okay, I think it's the medium tension one. It stinks that you have to buy extra cams and springs and dampers to dial it in, when the competition offers them in the initial package.  It's not a deal breaker mind you, but I think it is a necessity if you're running an extension, and if you want to run a certain configuration where you have 4 cams and springs, that will put you back $100 usd. The four-sided cam setup is a special use case but a pricey one at that. 

I guess I'm about to find out whether I chose wisely.   If the MFSSB doesn't work for me after a decent trial period, I'll probably spend the extra Benjamin on 2 cam & spring kits, and hopefully end up with a decently customizable conventional stick that I can even configure for use as a cyclic, and a set of force-sensing modules that I could probably sell to make up some of my sunk costs. 

Even if all else was equal the added costs for USA VKB or Virpil buyers make them significantly more expensive.  I got "free" shipping (are we really supposed to believe we aren't actually paying for that?  lol) from WinWing's North American warehouse, while shipping alone for a VKB Gladiator and STECS Max was over $150, if memory serves.  And then there are apparently added taxes and customs fees for those, too.     

Now I get to read-up on my new gear and software, order a couple of powered 6-8 port USB hubs, and look for some decent chair mounts (or start building my own) while I check my order status every few hours to see if they've shipped yet.  I guess a simmer's work really is "never done".  

[Blackhawk163]

3 minutes ago, LuckyStiff63 said:

I guess I'm about to find out whether I chose wisely.   If the MFSSB doesn't work for me after a decent trial period, I'll probably spend the extra Benjamin on 2 cam & spring kits, and hopefully end up with a decently customizable conventional stick that I can even configure for use as a cyclic, and a set of force-sensing modules that I could probably sell to make up some of my sunk costs. 

Even if all else was equal the added costs for USA VKB or Virpil buyers make them significantly more expensive.  I got "free" shipping (are we really supposed to believe we aren't actually paying for that?  lol) from WinWing's North American warehouse, while shipping alone for a VKB Gladiator and STECS Max was over $150, if memory serves.  And then there are apparently added taxes and customs fees for those, too.     

Now I get to read-up on my new gear and software, order a couple of powered 6-8 port USB hubs, and look for some decent chair mounts (or start building my own) while I check my order status every few hours to see if they've shipped yet.  I guess a simmer's work really is "never done".  

Congrats! Please don’t check winwing for their shipping, you’ll have a better time watching white paint dry! I literally live about 40 minutes away from their warehouse in NJ and it usually takes them about 5 days processing then another day or two to ship. It’s frustrating. Every time I order stock from them I ask if I can just pick it up, and every time it’s crickets. You’d think I’d get the hint lol! 

[Joch1955]

My understanding is that the MSFFB base is to simulate “force sensing” like in the F16. I have the regular base with the default springs and it works perfectly for most aircrafts, tension is in the middle I would say, not too soft or too hard.

[LuckyStiff63]

On 11/23/2024 at 12:58 PM, Joch1955 said:

My understanding is that the MSFFB base is to simulate “force sensing” like in the F16. I have the regular base with the default springs and it works perfectly for most aircrafts, tension is in the middle I would say, not too soft or too hard.

That's precisely what the MFSSB stick base does.   In a "fly by wire" control system, Rather than registering control surface inputs based on how far you move the stick, the stick stays nearly stationary (about 1/4" deflection from center), and the load cells in the base read how hard you push/pull on the stick. 

For me, the differnce is a real game-changer.  I loved it from the first flight with my old X-65f, and I don't know If I could ever go back, except for the possible exception of rotor-wing flight.

[LuckyStiff63]

On 11/23/2024 at 12:20 PM, Blackhawk163 said:

Congrats! Please don’t check winwing for their shipping, you’ll have a better time watching white paint dry! I literally live about 40 minutes away from their warehouse in NJ and it usually takes them about 5 days processing then another day or two to ship. It’s frustrating. Every time I order stock from them I ask if I can just pick it up, and every time it’s crickets. You’d think I’d get the hint lol! 

Funny you should mention paint drying:  I'm replacing the trim in several rooms, so I have a lot of opportunity to watch that here. 

I placed my order on Friday the 22nd, and I got an email yesterday with a tracking number.   So far, the status is still "awaiting pickup by carrier".   I'm playing around with some ideas for DIY chair mounts to keep busy.  When I'm not doing trim work, that is.  I went through USCG boot camp in Cape May in Jan & Feb, 34 years ago.  That's a nice town to visit, but it wasn't a very relaxing vacation.   

[LuckyStiff63]

On 11/23/2024 at 12:20 PM, Blackhawk163 said:

Congrats! Please don’t check winwing for their shipping, you’ll have a better time watching white paint dry! I literally live about 40 minutes away from their warehouse in NJ and it usually takes them about 5 days processing then another day or two to ship. It’s frustrating. Every time I order stock from them I ask if I can just pick it up, and every time it’s crickets. You’d think I’d get the hint lol! 

I ordered from Winwing after 11pm Friday night , and FedEx says they should deliver tomorrow (Wed) to the Savannah, GA area.  That's delivery in only 5 days, at the busiest time of the year.
So maybe they're improving? 

But I could always add a note in my feedback saying they should just let Blackhawk163 come pick up damn his stuff, already!! 

 Might not help, but it couldn't hurt, right? 

[BuzzU]

I have similar results. I ordered the 22nd and tracking # says delivery today. I'm in Colorado and the WW warehouse is in Calif.

[Blackhawk163]

3 hours ago, LuckyStiff63 said:

I ordered from Winwing after 11pm Friday night , and FedEx says they should deliver tomorrow (Wed) to the Savannah, GA area.  That's delivery in only 5 days, at the busiest time of the year.
So maybe they're improving? 

But I could always add a note in my feedback saying they should just let Blackhawk163 come pick up damn his stuff, already!! 

 Might not help, but it couldn't hurt, right? 

I’ll admit, I'm extremely spoiled lol. Normally when I place an order I expect shipping within 3 days if the order placement. I’m reasonable with actual delivery as once it leaves their warehouse it becomes the shipping company’s responsibility. Except that when I order from WW it’s 4 days of processing, followed by another 3 packing, and then up to another two more days for it to actually make it to UPS for what amounts to next day shipping.  
 

I’m lucky enough that if I need a computer part,  I can always get it from Newegg because they’re also about 40 min away. I can just drive and pick it up. 

I’m glad you are all getting your toys. Enjoy them.

 

excise me while I go off and see if there is anything else I want to buy from them, and then subsequently bellyache about their shipping! lol 

[LuckyStiff63]

I'm pretty spoiled that way, too: I blame Amazon Prime, personally.    There's pretty much nothing around here except for Office Max and Best buy about an hour away, so all my toys get shipped.

I'm still figuring out the rough measurements and chair-gonomics of the mounts I want to build.  This setup definitely deserves better than being suction-cupped or velcro'd to my desktop.   

[LuckyStiff63]

On 11/26/2024 at 1:25 PM, BuzzU said:

I have similar results. I ordered the 22nd and tracking # says delivery today. I'm in Colorado and the WW warehouse is in Calif.

I got my delivery last night (Wed 11/27) after a slight delay due to a damaged shipping label.   That's still less than 5 days from ordering to delivery, and at the busiest time of years for shipping.   Not too shabby!

[LuckyStiff63]

On 11/26/2024 at 1:25 PM, BuzzU said:

I have similar results. I ordered the 22nd and tracking # says delivery today. I'm in Colorado and the WW warehouse is in Calif.

My order was delivered Wed night about 7:30PM, in one medium-sized box that contained 4 boxes with the individual bases & grips.  
There were only a couple of small "dings" in the outer box, but the boxes inside are all pristine.

I hope yours arrived safe & unmolested by Fedex.   Enjoy your new controls...  I know I will!  

[Jyge]

What I found disturbing, was that I got a bag of stuff. Some levers and springs, but no information what is what. Springs was easy enough to figure that there are different stiffnesses, so far so good, but I could find no description to the markings on the levers and what how the different levers should effect the things.

[Phantom711]

@Jyge

Check on the WW website under the Downloads section, I believe, there are all the instruction manuals.

[BuzzU]

21 hours ago, LuckyStiff63 said:

My order was delivered Wed night about 7:30PM, in one medium-sized box that contained 4 boxes with the individual bases & grips.  
There were only a couple of small "dings" in the outer box, but the boxes inside are all pristine.

I hope yours arrived safe & unmolested by Fedex.   Enjoy your new controls...  I know I will!  

I'm not as lucky. I don't blame WW but I do blame FedEx. I haven't gotten my package yet. It was in Colorado on Tues. About 100 miles from me and they can't get it to me. Everyday is says the same thing.....It will be delivered today. It's saying it again today.

I just looe again and it's finally in my town and out for delivery. The problem is this is Sat and the manager doesn't work on Sat, so there's nobody here to let the Fedex driver in the front door. I bet I end up getting it Monday. At least I know the package isn't lost. Yet!

 

Look at this mess. I live in Buena Vista.

 

Travel History

Date	Time, Status and Location
Sunday, 24/11/2024	2:16 AM   Shipment information sent to FedEx   6:20 PM   Picked up CHINO, CA 11:59 PM   Arrived at FedEx location CHINO, CA
Monday, 25/11/2024	12:00 AM   Shipment arriving early CHINO, CA 2:50 AM   Departed FedEx location CHINO, CA 9:16 PM   On the way RED CLIFF, CO
Tuesday, 26/11/2024	2:27 AM   Arrived at FedEx location HENDERSON, CO 2:28 AM   Shipment arriving early HENDERSON, CO 11:10 PM   Departed FedEx location HENDERSON, CO
Friday, 29/11/2024	5:40 AM   On the way MONTROSE, CO 5:26 PM   Arrived at FedEx location MONTROSE, CO 5:52 PM   Delivery updated MONTROSE, CO 6:38 PM   Departed FedEx location MONTROSE, CO
Saturday, 30/11/2024	1:04 AM   Arrived at FedEx location HENDERSON, CO 2:56 AM   Departed FedEx location HENDERSON, CO 8:23 AM   At local FedEx facility BUENA VISTA, CO 8:25 AM   On FedEx vehicle for delivery BUENA VISTA, CO

[BuzzU]

Well, all is ok again. It all came an hour ago. I box the HOTAS was in looked like it was dragged behind the FedEx truck. It was all beat up and had a half a roll of packing tape holding it together. WW packs everything in smaller boxes and nothing had damage The pedal box was ok with no damage. Something happen along the way to me, but it worked out other than being 4 days late.

I had some apple pie as a reward for being lucky nothing was damaged. I feel better now. I love apple pie.

[Blackhawk163]

On 11/30/2024 at 12:32 AM, Jyge said:

What I found disturbing, was that I got a bag of stuff. Some levers and springs, but no information what is what. Springs was easy enough to figure that there are different stiffnesses, so far so good, but I could find no description to the markings on the levers and what how the different levers should effect the things.

What are the default cams? I don’t remember if it’s the NO-ARC one on a medium spring, It’s been awhile for me. I use SC-1S (self centering detent) for both axis. Medium spring on the roll and heavy on the pitch. Dampers on the free sides. Do get yourself some dampening grease as there will be less binding. 
 

My springs creak when trying to make small movements.

 

As for shipping, I bought the triple pack vr mfd kit today. I figure tomorrow will be the start of the actual processing. I’m curious how long this will take this time

[Jyge]

On 11/30/2024 at 1:20 PM, Phantom711 said:

@Jyge

Check on the WW website under the Downloads section, I believe, there are all the instruction manuals.

I see, I downloaded the manual for springs and dampers kit, but actually the description of the characteristics and springs is in the orion 2 joystick base manual