Some basic home cockpit questions

[Nimitz69]

Hi all, just joined the forum and while I continue my vertical learning curve about the world of home flt sims I wanted to ask a couple of very basic questions to see if I'm thinking about all this correctly. Quick background: 41 yr career AF, 22.5 yrs AD, 18 yrs GS/NH, retired for good 2021. USAF TPS grad with 56 different aircraft flown including 4 yrs at NASA JSC as space shuttle flt control/propulsion astronaut instructor, one of only 4 Non astronaut AF officers every qualified to fly Space Shuttle full 6-DOF simulator .... etc, etc.

ok so not new to full up military grade simulators, 1-G trainers and part task trainers but zero experience in world of home sims and  DCS. Here's my basic questions.  If I decide to go with DCS and VR this basically somewhat eliminates the "need" or "practically" for building a home cockpit with all the real panels since you can't see them while wearing VR right? A physical stick , throttles and rudder panels are very useful since you can still map them with DCS and VR together? Also, I get the 'immersion" aspect of being in a physical cockpit ...

if the above is true, is it also possible to combine VR with some mapping of physical switches in the cockpit and out the window displays with monitors? The idea would be 1) people could watch what you are seeing via the monitors as you fly via VR and 2) you could do a combo of say start up and ground ops via the physical cockpit switch's and then once you line up on the runway, switch to VR for takeoff, flying and landing, then back to physical switches for taxi back and shutdown.

i'll apologize in advance if a lot of this isn't realistic. BTW, I own a real Aces II ejection seat which is part of the motivation for considering building a physical cockpit with real panels ...

 

[parkerfly51505]

Hi Nimitz... welcome to the forum and thank you for your service!   My 2 cents.  I started with the home cockpit route.  I'm about 3/4 of the way complete with panels for a Tomcat.  Had three 2k monitors + a 1080p size monitor for gauges and TrackIR for head tracking.  Had the itch for more so I went motion with an aluminum frame/four actuators + belt actuator.  Amazing. 

I stopped building panels when I switched to VR (Quest 3) though.  Everyone's correct.  Once you use VR, you can't go back.  I greatly missed the physical switch engagement though.  Mixed reality is really getting very close to making both work.  I use the Virtual Desktop app which allows passthrough of both hands so I can see the switches wherever my hands go.  Quite amazing.  Still the full fidelity realism of VR yet the interaction of switches.  I'll be continuing the panels builds to completion probably this winter.  

I pared back to one monitor now.  When in VR, it shows what's happening on screen but has that "VR look" so it's not very easy on the eyes for others to watch.  Other's, I'm sure, could answer you better on that one.  

Hope this helps...

[Deadman]

Welcome  you have the chair you can build the pit and integrate the VR check this out .

If I ever get the A-10C FMT rebuild this ins  now the route i will take. Cheers

 

[Nimitz69]

 Guys for the responses! I forgot about the 'mixed reality' capability of latest gen VR like the Quest 3 so it looks like I can build a pit with all the physical panels and integrate with VR ..

 and finally put my Aces II seat to good use!

[Deadman]

That is in good shape Nice A-10 seat. Mine was ejected but sits well in the cockpit.

[Hempstead]

 

On 9/29/2024 at 4:51 PM, Nimitz69 said:

 If I decide to go with DCS and VR this basically somewhat eliminates the "need" or "practically" for building a home cockpit with all the real panels since you can't see them while wearing VR right? A physical stick , throttles and rudder panels are very useful since you can still map them with DCS and VR together? Also, I get the 'immersion" aspect of being in a physical cockpit ...

 

 

Ah... yes and no.

Yes... you can get away with just using the VR controllers to flip and turn switches and dials (or even using your hands). That's what I currently do. And it works quite well. But...

No, it's not the same. It's still no as fast and as "trained" with muscle memory as real switches and dials, which sometimes matters in a fight. So, what I am building now is a pit that has all the physical switches and dials laid out exactly as what's in VR (the real dimensions do not matter, all that matters is DCS' dimensions), such that when my virtual finger reaches for a virtual button, there is physical button right at the same spot IRL to meet my physical finger. And the physical button will send a USB event to the PC, configured in DCS. I called this Augmented Virtual Reality (AVR). That is, the VR world is augmented with the physical "stuff" instead of the other way around for AR. The good thing about this is that your pit building doesn't have to look nice at all, forget the backlight (I have my HUD printed w/ blue filament, and I am not inclined to paint it matte black; well I might when I am bored one day.). The looks is only for your vanity, nothing more. Build it for the function, build it for the feel. Don't buy it for the looks!

[Mr_sukebe]

I have only flown DCS in VR, and now have the usual HOTAS and another 5 panels and MFDs.

Whilst I can’t see the panels or MFDs, you build up muscle memory fairly quickly, similar to being able to touch type.

For the more difficult to discern buttons, say on the MFDs, I have used velcro to give some buttons a texture that I can feel.  Works wonders

[Nimitz69]

9 hours ago, Deadman said:

That is in good shape Nice A-10 seat. Mine was ejected but sits well in the cockpit.

Nice! I'm missing the ejection handles but can always 3D print them if I can't find some real ones. Probably time to call in what remaining favors I have with my friends in low places in DoD ...lol

[Nimitz69]

7 hours ago, Hempstead said:

 

Ah... yes and no.

Yes... you can get away with just using the VR controllers to flip and turn switches and dials (or even using your hands). That's what I currently do. And it works quite well. But...

No, it's not the same. It's still no as fast and as "trained" with muscle memory as real switches and dials, which sometimes matters in a fight. So, what I am building now is a pit that has all the physical switches and dials laid out exactly as what's in VR (the real dimensions do not matter, all that matters is DCS' dimensions), such that when my virtual finger reaches for a virtual button, there is physical button right at the same spot IRL to meet my physical finger. And the physical button will send a USB event to the PC, configured in DCS. I called this Augmented Virtual Reality (AVR). That is, the VR world is augmented with the physical "stuff" instead of the other way around for AR. The good thing about this is that your pit building doesn't have to look nice at all, forget the backlight (I have my HUD printed w/ blue filament, and I am not inclined to paint it matte black; well I might when I am bored one day.). The looks is only for your vanity, nothing more. Build it for the function, build it for the feel. Don't buy it for the looks!

Fair enough but I assume that I at one extreme I  could still build the full up  physical cockpit to the real dimensions and panel layout with all real switches, gauges, etc and then via the mixed reality capability of VR along with DSC integrate operating the physical cockpit switches while seeing out the cockpit windscreen via VR? The only end of the spectrum would be to just build a simple cockpit with my ejection seat, stick, throttles and rudder pedals and fly entirely in VR?

as someone who has been into building screen accurate iconic sci fi weapons I'm kinda leaning toward building as close as possible to a real A-10 cockpit trainer as I can. Just spit balling now but my cunning plan would be to first get a Quest III, Thrustmaster A-10 stick, throttles and rudder pedals and figure out how to integrate DSC with those. Then to build a complete 1:1 A-10 cockpit with all the correct panels, dials, switches, HUD , etc. And finally figure out how to integrate DSC with the physical cockpit and Mixed reality VR for the complete experience. This cunning plan would allow me to incrementally have capability while I continue to expand. I think we used to call this 'spiral development' when I was in DoD acquisition ... lol. Anyway, that my cunning plan after 5 mins of thought ... feel free to poke holes in it   
it only took me 3 years to build the screen accurate, operator-on-the-inside, fully electro-mechanical Dalek in the ath pic ... that pic was from MegaCon last year and is me, my wife and Jason Issacs (who is a good friend of ours - long story)

Edited October 1, 2024 by Nimitz69

[Deadman]

These are the plans copied from my FMT for the cockpit shell it may be of some help to get you started

Then check out Hansolo's thread and threads on Arduino to hook up panels

[Hempstead]

14 hours ago, Nimitz69 said:

Fair enough but I assume that I at one extreme I  could still build the full up  physical cockpit to the real dimensions and panel layout with all real switches, gauges, etc and then via the mixed reality capability of VR along with DSC integrate operating the physical cockpit switches while seeing out the cockpit windscreen via VR? The only end of the spectrum would be to just build a simple cockpit with my ejection seat, stick, throttles and rudder pedals and fly entirely in VR?

as someone who has been into building screen accurate iconic sci fi weapons I'm kinda leaning toward building as close as possible to a real A-10 cockpit trainer as I can. Just spit balling now but my cunning plan would be to first get a Quest III, Thrustmaster A-10 stick, throttles and rudder pedals and figure out how to integrate DSC with those. Then to build a complete 1:1 A-10 cockpit with all the correct panels, dials, switches, HUD , etc. And finally figure out how to integrate DSC with the physical cockpit and Mixed reality VR for the complete experience. This cunning plan would allow me to incrementally have capability while I continue to expand. I think we used to call this 'spiral development' when I was in DoD acquisition ... lol. Anyway, that my cunning plan after 5 mins of thought ... feel free to poke holes in it   
it only took me 3 years to build the screen accurate, operator-on-the-inside, fully electro-mechanical Dalek in the ath pic ... that pic was from MegaCon last year and is me, my wife and Jason Issacs (who is a good friend of ours - long story)

 

Sure you can build with real dimensions. That's what I am doing anyway, simply because I have a lot of F-16 cockpit parts and 3D models. However, I do take the approach of using 80/20 aluminum extrusion for max. flexibilities, instead of building a pit that looks like a chopped off F-16 section for the look. The reason being, 1. I don't build it for the looks, and 2. DCS' 3D model might not be correct, so I would need to "calibrate" the locations of the stuff I build to fit DCS' (the other way around is not likely to happen). Therefore, a fixed traditional plan built with plywood or even aluminum would be trouble in adjusting these locations to fit VR.

Plus, If you do a traditional plan, you have to build from start to get to a significant stage for it to be useful (months!). I build my pit in a weekend, without a plan, not even a sketch, with just a rough idea in my head (although I had been thinking about it and collecting parts for months), mounted just a car seat, rudder, stick, throttle, a bunch of USB hubs, caster wheels, and off we go hooking up to DCS and started flying. Then, pretty much every other time I fly in it, I thought of some way I can improve it, and kept building more and more.

It now has a swappable front panel, that is also my Gran Turismo 7 driving pit, as well as regular video game station with keyboard and mouse. One of the 3 front panels is an F-16 front panel with HUD/ICP, and pedestal mounted (no functional electronics yet). In other words, I want a pit that I can use now for various video games, not 500 hrs hard labor later for just one game.

I don't advocate any "plan." IMHO, for a VR pit, it's waste of time. For building a traditional pit for the looks, or for 2D, ya.... knock yourself out with a plan.

 

[Nimitz69]

On 10/1/2024 at 9:47 PM, Deadman said:

These are the plans copied from my FMT for the cockpit shell it may be of some help to get you started

Then check out Hansolo's thread and threads on Arduino to hook up panels

Perfect, thx!

 

[Nimitz69]

On 10/2/2024 at 10:30 AM, Hempstead said:

.....

I don't advocate any "plan." IMHO, for a VR pit, it's waste of time. For building a traditional pit for the looks, or for 2D, ya.... knock yourself out with a plan.

 

So what about the mixed reality cockpit like seen in the video link @Deadman posted from Monday? Seems like the ultimate setup, a physical cockpit with all the switches, etc functional plus the emersion of VR for everything outside the cockpit?

[Hempstead]

12 hours ago, Nimitz69 said:

So what about the mixed reality cockpit like seen in the video link @Deadman posted from Monday? Seems like the ultimate setup, a physical cockpit with all the switches, etc functional plus the emersion of VR for everything outside the cockpit?

Sure… if that’s the definition of “ultimate” for you.

What I always advocate is to build what you can, with what you can get, according to your skill level. If you don’t have space, do what HansSolo does. If you have space, do what I do, https://blog.hempstick.org/2024/08/f-16-blk-50-central-pedestal.html. But even though I have a lot of space, mine has caster wheels so I can move it out for further construction, and vacuuming.

Note that, my front pedestal is only there to support dials and switches in position. In fact that’s the whole point of my “pit”. I have no intention of putting in any instrument, like HSI, etc. All the “looks” will be supplied by VR.

 

[Nimitz69]

Fair enough ... given my background in having a custom woodworking business for 20 years, building my full size, operator-on-the inside Dalek Abe experience working with fiberglass and soft metals,  building the physical cockpit will be straight forward given the plans provided by members. I have some limited experience working with micro processors like Arduino since all the electro mechanical systems of the Dalek are operated  via an F-15 flt control stick through a couple of Arduinos. However the real challenge will be getting all the cockpit instrumentation integrated with DSC which is one of the prime motivators for this. If I just wanted to relive my glory days flying jets in the AF I'd get a Quest III, Thrustmaster stick and throttle and call it good .... But I really need to do something useful with my Aces II ejection seat ... lol